Exar Kun Vs Anakin with a twist

Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B] "When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

This is Chris Cerasi's initial statement. He notes that the movies > all in terms of canon since GL has direct control over how they are put together and presented whereas anything else is subject to interpretation, just as I said. He then goes on to say that novelizations have "variation in detail" but should be considered "very accurate depictions" of the movies.

This means two things:

1. The movie versions of events are gospel; nothing else. Even novelizations are subject to author interpretation, variation in detail, and while are considered "accurate" anyone with half a brain can tell they're not. We cannot simply sift through the novelizations and pick and choose things to aid our arguments if the entire book depicts the movie in a skewed, flawed, or otherwise different nature and is not a work of GL himself. If we were to simply take things out of the novelizations and claim them as fact, Qui-Gon Jinn would be as good as Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker could temporarily deflect Sith Lightning with his hands. Both of those are absolutely ridiculous claims made by novelizations.

2. In any case where the novelization describes something or gives meaning to something and the movie covers the same event, the movie version is the true version. This is especially the case with RotS; for starters, Vaapad was never envisioned for the movie nor used.

Stover applies it to the fight and makes his own theories on the fighting form, but it was never ever applied by Nick Gillard or George Lucas. Secondly, the creators of the lightsaber forms themselves were simply consultants for the movie and did not actually effect the presentations. So this basically means that when the movie shows two combatants engaged- one fairly casual who eventually wins and the other giving it his all and he ends up on the floor- it stands to reason that this is really what happened. Stover's views on the fight that he wrote about before it was filmed are moot.

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

This passage basically covers more EU than anything, but the point remains: anything outside of the movies themselves (Unless they come from GL directly) are considered to be flawed material. Although Lucasfilm lazily lumps novelizations and radio presentations in with movies, the movies are really in their own class of canon. For the purpose of objective debate, we should acknowledge that and respect that.

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

And this is more of the same. Obviously, a novelization or EU book or comic or video game is all subject to interpretation. When one contradicts the other, the higher form of canon comes out on top. And when it comes to movie versus anything, movie always wins. Ergo, the movie depiction of the fight is the accurate one; Stover's is flawed.

The quality of the choreography is absolutely moot when the highest form of canon depicts them being terrible or especially air-headed fighters.

If you think I should instead take the novelization (Read: flawed) version of the fight and a few lines from a Visual Dictionary over a movie depiction (Read: highest form of canon), you had best reconsider.

We do not get the luxury of looking at say, Obi-Wan versus Darth Vader in ANH and going "Gee, that fight choreography sucked; ergo, both of them are sabergods because I've speculated on it and some abstract quote from a lesser piece of canon says so."

G-canon is "George Lucas" canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely.

Reference books, such as the Visual Dictionary, only possess G-canon if the actual information within comes directly from GL's mouth. Anything else submitted is C-canon and subject to interpretation, flaws, or just plain hyperbole.

Actually, his writing has nothing to do with it. He depicted the Jedi clearly not being prepared for their opponent's simple attack and certainly not making a martially smart decision when they approached him. In effect, a canon representation of those Jedi show that they have no common sense.
I fail to see how Jedi lacking the common sense enough to block a clearly telegraphed stab with over a minute's prep and several seconds' warning equals them being the "best in the history of the Jedi Order". That's like calling Han Solo the best mechanic in the history of smugglers because he can't get his hyperdrive to work.

Again, see the above points. No piece of lower canon by another author gets to circumvent anything GL shows us.

CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

This is pretty straightforward; any time GL says something, it's final.

Any time an author makes an interpretation on something, it's subject to speculation and little more. If GL shows Greedo shooting first (Which was a pretty shitty redo, I might add) but the novelization has Han Solo shooting first, the former version is correct.

How is it then that these three were not rivals to Grievous, but they were among the best the Jedi Order had ever produced? How does this follow?

So GL, the man who created everything the EU, reference books, NEC, etc. is based off of, is a flawed source? And obscure quotes from lower canon sources are more accurate? Are you sure that's your stance, LS? [/B]

Because, since the quote about them being among the best ever would still stand? Wouldn't that, rather than having three council members suck worse than 90 percent of the Jedi just bring 90 percent of the Jedi in history down lower? The point of the scene is meant to be 'Palpatine is good enough to kill three Jedi simultaneously, Mace Windu's in trouble'
Not 'The most hyped Sith Lord in the movie is absolutely devoid of any abilities and can only take out three weaklings, ha ha, Mace has no problem here.'
That Mace is unable to save the three, that the three live through Geonosis and Mace takes them rather than Cin Drallig, who by choreography alone, would kill all three of them at once....

Originally posted by Lightsnake
However, unless it contradicts something from the movie absolutely and directly? There's nothing to argue.

This is a stupid take, Lightsnake. The novel doesn't need to absolutely contradict the movie - it just needs to be a little bit inaccurate in a certain situation. The fight sequences, compared to the movie, are completely lacking almost any link to the movie interpretation.

The choreography sucked, everyone knows this. Don't use it to diminish people because of horrible CGI and stunt coordination.

What choreography, Lightsnake ? Tiin and Kolar aren't even moving before getting cut down by Sidious.

And arguing the efficiency of their combat style given a very limited space is actualy completely logical. Mace for example always uses rather wide swings to generate some powerful strikes and the only people who did display some real close-range combat efficiency while fighting in a team in the SW saga are Anakin and Obi-Wan (when cutting down the droids in the elevator in RotS).

I personally wouldn't want to wield a weapon that cuts through everything instantly when I have three friends around me trying to find one opponent in very small space.

To be exact, the quote comes from the ROTS novelization-several characters + narration and the Ultimate Visual guides.

What quote ? That Kolar, Fisto and Tiin belong to the finest duellist the Order ever produced ? Where is the reason for that statement ? Cestus Deception has shown us that Fisto was only slightly ahead of AotC Obi-Wan when it came to lightsaber skill. The same Obi-Wan that got pretty much owned by Dooku (in AotC and RotS as well) who was definetely one of the best duellists the order ever produced. Tiin has never been noted to be an exceptional duellist and is more recognized for his piloting abilities. In fact most of his Clone War action happens in air combat. I don't get how this makes him an uber duellist. The only person there who might have had some serious lightsaber abilities (at least enough to be put into the "best fighters of the time" department) was Kolar who rather easily managed to disarm Quinlan Vos in a duel which is certainly nothing to scoff at.

Again: Where is the basis to state that those were some of the finest swordsman the order ever produced ? That aside from the fact that this comes from Mace's line of thought in novel, as far as I remember.

And thenm after the movie, the approved explanation is given that circumvents Lucas's own foolishness, which isn't directly contradicted by the movie.
By this logic, Mace Windu absolutely sucks and a third year kendo student could kick his ass

The novel was released at the same day as the movie and his based on a script prior to the movie version. Maybe somebody should get his timeline straight here...
We're not talking about some stupid choreography which is definetely present in the scene but more about the fact that a Sith Lord pulls out his lightsaber, activates it, spouts a "It's treason then" at the four Jedi coming to arrest him, jumps on them and cuts two of them down before one of them even moves (Windu aside who moves into a defensive stance when Sidious comes flying).

The second Sidious activated his blade somebody should have floored him with a force push or some other force attack. They should at least have spreaded through the room instead of remaining so close to each other that they stand in each others way later. Hell...one should expect that some of the finest duellist in the Orders history would at the very least assume some defensive stance when a Sith Lord in front of them draws his lightsaber instead of just standing there, listen to him uttering another line and then get cut down like some living statues incidently standing in the way of Sidious blade.

It's not the bad choreography. It's the fact that they don't move at all that is the disturbing part there especially when they had plenty of time to do so.

Why is Cin Drallig teaching saber skills and not Mace? Personal preference? Saesee, Kit and Agen preferring the front lines and council positions?
And probably because they're not rivals to Grievous, who was capable of dealing with most council members

The question actually is how "some of best swordsmen the order ever trained" is defined ? Top 100 ? Top 10000 ? I mean...assuming that the Galaxy has 1000 Generations of Jedi Knights (each generation up to 10000 Jedi) that would be 100,000,000. Even if they belong to the best percent of them there are still one million guys that might be equal or better.

Again: the choreography sucks and it's time to look past that. Especially when said Sith Lord is also described as one of the best duelists in history himself and the inadequacy of Lucas's direction can be used to detract from a LOT of people in the movies.

Again: The very point is that there is no choreography and there is no source that offers a viable explanation why they actually didn't react. Because the fight as depicted in the novel is again completely different and it also doesn't get rid of the actual stupidity of those Jedi. Again Sidious gives some nice amount of speech before Windu and Fisto even move.

Originally posted by Borbarad
This is a stupid take, Lightsnake. The novel doesn't need to absolutely contradict the movie - it just needs to be a little bit inaccurate in a certain situation. The fight sequences, compared to the movie, are completely lacking almost any link to the movie interpretation.

It's not the bad choreography. It's the fact that they [b]don't move at all that is the disturbing part there especially when they had plenty of time to do so.

The question actually is how "some of best swordsmen the order ever trained" is defined ? Top 100 ? Top 10000 ? I mean...assuming that the Galaxy has 1000 Generations of Jedi Knights (each generation up to 10000 Jedi) that would be 100,000,000. Even if they belong to the best percent of them there are still one million guys that might be equal or better.

Again: The very point is that there is no choreography and there is no source that offers a viable explanation why they actually didn't react. Because the fight as depicted in the novel is again completely different and it also doesn't get rid of the actual stupidity of those Jedi. Again Sidious gives some nice amount of speech before Windu and Fisto even move. [/B]

The entire scene and the following fight scene was pure crap. It bugs me even moreso how Lucas meant to use it to establish Palpatine is very good, rather than the controversy over Kit, Agen and Saesee sucking (and as you said, Agen was capable of defeating Quin Vos, which isn't a small feat).
I'd even take a 'Palpatine used some random Sith technique to freeze them.' as an explanation

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering during the Windu and Anakin/Obi-wan fight scenes, I don't think Stover describes many movies whatsoever...

Erm. I guess you meant "moves". Yes. But his depictions of the other fighting scenes are completely off.

Erm, yeah. Kind of my point.
Again, Nai...I could probably pull out a link where you argued, rather admirably I might add, that Mace's status as a great duelist shouldn't be contested because of his poor showing in the fight. You're totally unwilling to extend awful work in the scene itself to moments prior, and I've got no idea why

I've said, in general, that you shouldn't talk down characters because of bad choreography which is not the point here. The point is that they look at the Sith Lord pulling out his lightsaber, let him drop a nice line just to leap forward and kill two of them without even bothering to move a centimetre. Windu on the other handside, is shown to move in a defensive stance. He's the only one that shows any reaction to Sidious there.

If I were one of the finest duelists who ever lived, knowing that my friend would die if if I didn't, on the whole also possessing incredible skills with martial arts as well? One might be willing to do something. Hell, by the flack they're getting, if someone took a kick at the back of Palpatine's knee, that'd be it

The point is that even the finest duellist who ever lived wouldn't like to pose a risk to his friends wielding around a weapon that really cuts and kills anything on contact. And on this part Sidious does a really clever job by using the Jedi as living shields. First he prevents Agen from acting while using Saesee, then cuts down Agen and then basically twirls in between Kit Fisto and Mace. Tactically clever and surely some nice moves. The point is that the Jedi weren't putting up much defence anyway before three of them were down on the ground and surely didn't act smart in that situation. The novel depicts it, basically, the same way.

I was very unaware canon needed to justify itself with everything, Nai.

ROFL, Lightsnake. This statement isn't coming from the omniscient narrator, but from Mace Windu. And even if it would be a comment by the narrator, it would be a C-Canon comment because not being mentioned in the movies. And this means it's questionable if other C-Canon sources contradict that observation. That aside from the fact that we still don't mean what "the best" refers to.

Yes, and Sora Bulq, one of the three people to ever master Vaapad was walked all over by Dooku in a straight fight, and Sora considered a 'grievous loss' to the Order. I wouldn't say 'got beaten by Dooku, described as one of the best duelists ever and one of the most powerful Jedi ever' is a huge demerit.
And when was Kit only slightly ahead of Obi-wan? I didn't read Cestus Deception, btw

Bulq was even trashed while Dooku fought him and Tholme together. The very point is lightsnake: You could put up somebody like Dooku among the best duellists ever to appear in the SW universe because he does pretty much trash almost anybody in his own era using a blade. But the three that accompanied Mace ? I mean. Looking upon the history of the Jedi Order I don't believe that they are something like the "top ten" when you consider that people like Mace, Yoda, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Depa are better then them and that's just the PT era.

he was noted by Mace as being an exceptional duelist and was a frequent sparring partner of Mace. He was also an exceptional pilot

Kolar was also held in extremely high esteem by Mace. And Mace has been in personal contact with this trio before. When Mace put into action his plan to storm the Crimson Nova guild and take on a legion of Bounty Hunters, he handpicks Kit, Saesee and Agen to accompany him.
Heck, Kit shows some nice-albeit nautical- abilities in the Clone Wars

Three seperate instances-narration, Obi-wan's dialogue and Mace's line of thought.
As far as actual showings go, to my knowledge, quite little. To the single line of dialogue there, and Mace's esteem of them?

Mace seems to hold all of the Jedi in very high esteem as far as Stovers novels are concerned. He puts Depa above himself in terms of bladework. He puts Yoda several leagues above himself in Shatterpoint and LoE multiple times. He verbally fellates Obi-Wan's lightsaber mastery in the RotS novel. Really.

Wasn't the novelization released a month earlier?

To be honest: I don't know any more. But this would make your argument even worse.

Again, Nai, this really fits into what I'm saying about how badly the scene was filmed, even moreso how Kit, Agen and Mace are unable to do anything-whether with the Force, or even resorting to martial arts. Mace, with his speed, could easily lay Palpatine flat in that amount of time.

Wow, Lightsnake. Who asked me since when canon has to justify itself ?

Again, going back to my exact points about just how poorly the scene is. You're using it to say they suck, though. When I can apply the same thing for Mace Windu there and shortly therafter

No. You can't. Because first Mace is actually shown to react on Sidious action unlike the other three and actually he does beat Sidious later on in the fight. So he can't suck in comparison to Sidious. And we have the later CGI version of Sidious doing a nice job with Yoda for some amount of time.

I think that's rather pushing it. One would consider some of the best in what Lucas defined as the Jedi Prime to be a cut above the rest, for sake of argument

Yeah. IF Lucas had actionally mentioned that their lightsaber skill was in their prime, then you would be correct. Yet he didn't do something like that which means that point is up for discussion.

Shouldn't this reflect very poorly on Windu as well? The moment Palpatine had a saber in hand, Mace should've tried something with the Force, moved forward rather than waiting, ANYTHING.

He moved into a defensive stance and survived. Notice how he couldn't move sidewards (other Jedi standing in their way) and forward would have made him collide with Sidious himself. And I pretty much doubt that he suggested that his fellow Jedi would get cut down by a single opponent (I guess the other 3 were also pretty surprised that Sidious did even attack).

The entire scene and the following fight scene was pure crap. It bugs me even moreso how Lucas meant to use it to establish Palpatine is very good, rather than the controversy over Kit, Agen and Saesee sucking (and as you said, Agen was capable of defeating Quin Vos, which isn't a small feat).
I'd even take a 'Palpatine used some random Sith technique to freeze them.' as an explanation

Well. As I already told Gideon: This entire debate circling around Sidious and his action scene doesn't make any sense. The point here is Mace VS Kun. And as I said multiple times before: If you want to suggest that Kun is head and shoulders above Anakin in the force department and surely is nobody you can simply ignore when it comes to lightsaber skill - I don't get how DS adds that two points and reaches the conclusion that Anakin would defeat Kun in a lightsaber fight.

Because Nai, you seem to think offensive force powers and lightsaber combat are one in the same, whereas lightsaber combat is separate from an actual force battle. Being better with the force doesn't mean dick in lightsaber combat, as Mace showed against Sidious, and as Anakin showed against Dooku.

Did you ever have a look at the topic of this thread here, Gideon ? Does it say "Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious - Part 2932 ?" No ?

Oh, I am more than aware of what this thread is entitled, Nai. But this is one of the points in not only Darth Sexy's argument, but yours as well, and so I felt that I would play my part as the "good samaritan" by coming out and correcting what I saw to be a flawed attempt at a flawed point.

Then why you are turning this thread into that discussion once more ?

This is misleading. By responding to it at all, you're undermining your point and efforts to keep this thread 'on-topic'. To point the finger at me in an attempt to shunt off all the blame would be deceptive. If you don't like the direction that the discussion is going, Nai, either concede the point or don't bother responding.

So they weren't on equal terms before that ? Nice.

That's the genuine idea, Nai.

ROFL, Escape. What a nice irrelevant missdirection.

I'd like to think that it is completely relevant and surprisingly direct.

That's exactly what he did and the reason for this is that he thought he had to capture Sidious alive instead of killing him on the spot. He just stands there for more than a second and waits until Sidious has moved his blade back up again. So unless you want to tell me that Mace needs some seconds to place a single strike on Sidious I guess he did really allow the Sith to defend himself again.

Let me get this straight: your reasoning is that Mace Windu allowed Sidious to reevaluate his stance and prepare himself, thereby continuing the duel, because his goal was to bring him in alive? That seems rather silly; why would Mace allow his opponent to continue fighting when -- according to you -- he was in a position to defeat him? What makes your interpretation of the scenario even more humorous is that line of thought would completely contradict and defy Mace's entire objective. By allowing Darth Sidious to defend himself, he risked the chance of being killed -- allowing Sidious to escape and conquer the Republic, as planned.

My apologies, Nai, but anyone who debates objectively would see the flaw in that.

Once more: ROFL, Escape. You sound as if Mace shit his pants and ran away from Sidious in fear. Really. He just moved into a room in which he had more space and no ground literred with bodies of dead Jedi. And wow...he immediately takes the initiative once they are there.

Really? Because he runs into a hallway -- which is actually of smaller size than the room that they were just in. And, instead of actually forcing Sidious back into the room -- which, according to you, he is more than capable of doing given the disparity between them -- he is, instead, driven back into the main office itself. Once again, your reasoning is contradicted by the events that have taken place.

Funny interpretation, Escape.

If you define "funny" as "highly logical and extraordinarily accurate", yes, I'd agree.

He cuts the first two Jedi down which don't even move to defend theirselves.

Yes, we've all heard your theory about how deeply terrible Masters Tinn and Kolar are with a lightsaber.

You might attribute that to Sidious speed or to the fact that those two pretty much sucked. I don't care.

I'd blame it all on terrible choreography, but given a choice, I'd take the logical route and say "Sidious's speed".

The point is that they weren't defending themselves so that doesn't make Sidious an uber duellist exactly.

"You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
-- George Lucas, The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith.

...Terribly sorry, Nai, but George Lucas > you... and he says that you simply have to be Mace Windu or Master Yoda to compete with the Dark Lord of the Sith in a fight; so, yes, I'd say that that quote alone makes him an 'uber duelist'. 🙂

Kit Fisto is cut down by Sidious while defending himself, yes. But I wonder what Windu has to do with that. Mace isn't even in melee range with Sidious. So to state that Sidious cut down Kit Fisto "while duelling Mace" is simply wrong.

Is it?

Mace Windu couldn't overcome Darth Sidious even when he had the assistance of Kit Fisto, who is extremely talented with a lightsaber, fighting along side him. They'd fought together before, suggesting experience with one another and they knew how to complement the other's fighting ability... really, Nai, if Mace could "megapwn!11!" Sidious in a lightsaber duel -- he would have done so when Fisto was helping him.

Yet he didn't.

You're talking about the same Mace Windu who casually switches his weaponhand while duelling the Sith Lord ?

"But Sidious was out of melee range, Nai, so it doesn't count!1!"

The same Mace Windu who didn't want to kill Sidious in the first place because he came to capture him and even stays with that idea after Sidious has killed the three Jedi ? Hmm.

Lol, yes, Nai. But, you see -- the thing is -- generally, when someone wants to take his opponent alive, that is dependent on two factors:

a.) Your opponent isn't armed or in a position to harm you.
b.) You need to remain alive to do it.

...So, by giving Sidious time to regroup and attack again, he compromises both of these, ergo, he is risking allowing the man who manipulated him and his peers for decades roaming free to continue some sort of megasupersecret plan involving galactic dominance.

Pardon if I don't think that Mace Windu would be so stupid to let that happen. 😉

Excuse me Escape. You blame that on poor choreography and at the same time use it as argument for Sidious superiority in combat ? Am I the only one that thinks this doesn't make much sense ?

You're beginning to take my argument out-of-context, Nai. Try to keep it rational, here. I'm not arguing Sidious's 'superiority' in combat; I'm saying that Mace didn't initially have the advantage nor the ability to defeat Sidious. The 'poor choreography' involves Sidious's defeat of Masters Tinn and Kolar.

Hello, Escape. He's exchanging two blows with Sidious and then Sidious cuts Fisto down why Mace is not even in melee range. So what should he have done against that.

Err... "megaWTFpwn" Sidious while he had help? Or, better yet, while his back was turned during Fisto's execution?

And he drives Mace back to the office ? This is coming from the guy who told me that Windu was running away implying that it was Windu's choice to move through the corridor into the office ? WTF ?

Precisely.

If Mace can "megaWTFpwn" Sidious any time he likes, he would have -- being an aggressive fighter himself -- not run away at all, and rather, driven Sidious back into the main office rather than allowing the Sith Lord to do the reverse.

No. I don't need to proof anything because this duel isn't the topic of that thread here no does it have any impact on this thread here. I'd like to see your justification for turning this into another Mace VS Sidious debate.

...And yet you still respond. So, what you're telling me is that, even though I'm "turning this thread into Mace vs. Sidious", you will respond but and give a rebuttal, but not provide proof?

That in itself says a lot.

Wow.
I officially have no real patience for the annoying nature of yours to pop up in every damn debate in which the duel between Mace and Sidious is cited, to turn it into the next "Mace VS Sidious" thread.

I'm sorry that I've upset you, Nai. I guess that leaves you with a few options:

a.) Prove it, once and for all, and shut me up.
b.) Concede the point.
c.) Don't respond.

You clearly can't do A, and for whatever reason, you're unwilling to try the latter two.

But ok. Just for you: I was talking about sheer bladework and lightsaber skill a department in which Mace does by far exceed Sidious. Which is only logical. You mentioned it yourself: Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for a decade while Mace Windu was quite busy fighting a war over the three years prior to that duel. How should Sidious bladework be on par with that of Mace Windu or even close to the only master of the deadliest lightsaber form there is ?

Perhaps because, despite the years of inactivity, he's still good enough to keep up with the best of them? Besides, that doesn't necessarily say in itself that he's inferior. Kit Fisto was fighting in the Clone Wars and kept up with his lightsaber skills, yet he can't compare to Sidious, either. Again, according to Lucas, you have to be Yoda or Mace. No one else can compete with Sidious. I will grant you that doesn't say "lightsaber only", either. But -- then again -- in sheer bladework, Yoda himself might be the worst duelist. Afterall, he has to draw on the Force to maintain his agility and mobility more than Sidious himself has to. You have to think about these things, Nai.

The point is, and you've stated it yourself, that Sidious initial advantage comes from his superior speed and feriousity. That means from the fact that Sidious possesses greater force mastery in comparison to Mace Windu. The novel goes so far that Mace does force Sidious to decrease his speed (through Vaapad / Shatterpoint usage) and only after this disarms the Sith Lord.

Excuse me? Nai, the last time I checked, Mace didn't force Sidious to do anything -- delving into Vaapad allowed him to match Sidious's speed. Not that he forced the Sith Lord to move slower.

So Sidious had a considerable speed advantage on Mace for most of the duel (according to the novel) which does mean that Mace...must obviously be far more skilled in the combat department to last against Sidious and even fight him back.

And, again, if you're referring to lightsaber combat without using the Force to enhance one's skill and speed and strength, then you have the point, as I mentioned in my first response. But, like I told you, if that's the case, Yoda himself is pure shit when it comes to technical ability. Where would he be if he did not have the Force to enhance his speed and mobility?

A highly intelligent debater such as yourself ought to have no trouble understanding the simplicity of the fact that the point your trying to make he has no use in this debate.

Oh, I disagree.

Escape. I'm getting really bored by people who don't seem to have martial arts or saberfighting knowledge and come up with shitty comparisons based on that fact.

Err... Nai, I'm a purple belt in Tae Kwon Do. Saberfighting and fencing? I'll grant you, I have no experience. But with martial arts? Lol, yeah. I tied for first place in my division (ironically, the adult division here) in Bowling Green's competition.

Did Mace overpower Sidious with superior strength only by grapping him, thereby immobilizing him and then cut his hands off like Anakin did to Dooku, this all aided by the fact that he had a artifical hand ? No ?

A fight's a fight, Nai. Grappling is as valid and as legitimate as a kick or a punch; in fact, overwhelming someone with a kick doesn't suggest any superiority with a blade.

Did Mace use some refined martial arts movement to disarm Sidious, such as kicking the freaking blade out of the Sith Lord's hand. Oh yes. That seems to be the case.

Again, see the above.

Does Anakin show any superiority over Dooku in the lightsaber combat or force mastery department ?

Does Windu disarm Sidious by blade superiority? No. He disarms him -- ironically -- with superior physical ability. The same thing you credit to Anakin's victory.

I can actually remember that Anakin was down on the ground after trying to attack Dooku from behind while Dooku knocked out his former master fighting them 2 on 1. Holy shit. Did something similar happen to Windu ? No.

Actually, I recall something similar. Oh, yes. Sidious forced Windu back down a corridor after killing two of his companions in as many seconds, and killed a third while combating him in tandem.

Holy shit.

Can it be that you're just comparing apples to oranges here ? Holy crap. Yes. Does that make any sense ? No. Does it have any influence on the actual debate which says "Exar Kun VS Anakin" ? No.

Can it be that you're making unsupported assumptions? Holy crap. Yes! Can it be that you've claimed Sidious isn't an uber duelist, only to be proven wrong? Damn, yeah, I guess you have. Do you like this argument? Apparently not, as much as you're bitching about it. Yet are you responding? Sure are! And, do you have an unlimited resevoir of rhetorical questions? Seems so.

Oh. You would define it like that. Good god. So...does Vaapad, as a mindset, belong to the "offensive force power" department or is it merely part of the style ? Does Mace Windu's shatterpoint ability belong to the "offensive force power" department or is it merely an alternate force-aided way of perception (such as precognition) ? Is boosting your physical abilities counted as "offensive" or "defensive" force power depending on what you use this ability for ?

Err... since the 'mindset' is an integral part of mastering the form itself, yes, it's part of a 'pure lightsaber duel'. Mace's shatterpoint ability is a natural strength of his, so yes, it also belongs there. Boosting one's physical abilities is not the same as using a Force push or Force lightning, which are regarded as offensive Force techniques. Using the Force to enhance something that you will attack another with is not an "offensive Force maneuver" per se. Whereas a Force push, Force lightning, Force Storm, and so forth are direct Force-based attacks intended to harm, kill, or neutralize an opponent.

And on a sidenote, Escape. The novelizations are NOT G-CANON but C-CANON. Time that some people get that into their heads.

Nope. According to REX and several websites, G-Canon includes: George Lucas's interpretations, Lucas's published notes, the movies, the novelizations of the movies, and the scripts.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. I guess you meant "moves". Yes. But his depictions of the other fighting scenes are completely off.

Well. As I already told Gideon: This entire debate circling around Sidious and his action scene doesn't make any sense. The point here is Mace VS Kun. And as I said multiple times before: If you want to suggest that Kun is head and shoulders above Anakin in the force department and surely is nobody you can simply ignore when it comes to lightsaber skill - I don't get how DS adds that two points and reaches the conclusion that Anakin would defeat Kun in a lightsaber fight.

PRetty much, from here on, I can see Kun being on equal footing with the high Yoda/Mace/Palpatine tiers

we see Palpatine rear back to thrust (God, did I just type that?) and impale Agen, who's holding his saber in a different position (I feel so dirty...)

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Because Nai, you seem to think offensive force powers and lightsaber combat are one in the same, whereas lightsaber combat is separate from an actual force battle. Being better with the force doesn't mean dick in lightsaber combat, as Mace showed against Sidious, and as Anakin showed against Dooku.

Lmao. So you really want to tell me that a superior force user is not capable of entchanting his natural strength, speed and so on to a greater extend then a less powerful opponent ? You might want to go and tell that to Yoda because, using your stupid argument, he shouldn't be able to even hold his own against any other duellist in the PT era because he's physically far below anybody else. Yet, through his superior force mastery, he's capable of pretty much outduelling everybody else in the PT. Wow. Seems so that I'm right and you're wrong, dude.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Lmao. So you really want to tell me that a superior force user is not capable of entchanting his natural strength, speed and so on to a greater extend then a less powerful opponent ? You might want to go and tell that to Yoda because, using your stupid argument, he shouldn't be able to even hold his own against any other duellist in the PT era because he's physically far below anybody else. Yet, through his superior force mastery, he's capable of pretty much outduelling everybody else in the PT. Wow. Seems so that I'm right and you're wrong, dude.

Good god Nai.. Increasing your natural strength doesn't make you a better lightsaber duelist.. I don't know why you're playing dumb. If you have a problem with this, see Dooku vs, Anakin, Mace vs. Sidious, Kun vs. Ulic, etc. These fights completely trump your ridiculous assertions. And it's not through superior face mastery that makes Yoda a great lightsaber duelist Nai. His force mastery is what allows him to flip and not get tired. Him training with a saber for nearly 9 centuries and having incredible raw force potential is what makes him a great lightsaber duelist.

Originally posted by Gideon
Let me get this straight: your reasoning is that Mace Windu allowed Sidious to reevaluate his stance and prepare himself, thereby continuing the duel, because his goal was to bring him in alive? That seems rather silly; why would Mace allow his opponent to continue fighting when -- according to you -- he was in a position to defeat him? What makes your interpretation of the scenario even more humorous is that line of thought would completely contradict and defy Mace's entire objective. By allowing Darth Sidious to defend himself, he risked the chance of being killed -- allowing Sidious to escape and conquer the Republic, as planned.

My apologies, Nai, but anyone who debates objectively would see the flaw in that.

To elaborate further on that issue. He was clearly in a position to strike Sidious down as Sidious had his saber on his side low while Mace simply standing there ready to strike. He couldn't have disarmed Sidious from that position. The same thing basically happens again when Sidious goes down on his knees. Had Mace turned with his saber extended he would have lopped Sidious' head off.

And no. Mace's objective was to capture Sidious alive as (you might have noticed that) there was already some propaganda tossed against the Jedi accusing them of wanting to take over the Republic. Simply imagine what would have happened if some Jedi had just killed the Supreme Chancellor. Notice how Mace, even after having disarmed the Sith Lord, still doesn't seem to be willing to kill him. He first comes up with that idea after Sidious attacked him with force lightning, eventually realizing that he can't capture Sidious alive.

Really? Because he runs into a hallway -- which is actually of smaller size than the room that they were just in. And, instead of actually forcing Sidious back into the room -- which, according to you, he is more than capable of doing given the disparity between them -- he is, instead, driven back into the main office itself. Once again, your reasoning is contradicted by the events that have taken place.

Wow, Escape. Can it be that Sidious main office is actually bigger then the room where the fight started ? Yes ? Damn it. Can it, therefor, be that Mace, utilizing wide swings in general, would find it easier to fight in the main office (that aside from not having to walk over the corpse of some of his former friends) ? Yes ? Damn it. And my interpretation is contradicted by the events that take place. That's why Mace suddenly takes the initiative and drives Sidious back almost immediatly when they arrive in the second room (after the saber lock) ? Damn it.

"You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
-- George Lucas, The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith.

...Terribly sorry, Nai, but George Lucas > you... and he says that you simply have to be Mace Windu or Master Yoda to compete with the Dark Lord of the Sith in a fight; so, yes, I'd say that that quote alone makes him an 'uber duelist'. 🙂

Yes. And because of what factors ? His uber blade style or the fact that he actually possesses an extremly high force mastery which allows him to enchance his speed to a level that not many Jedi (or to be exact just Mace and Yoda) are capable of putting something up against ? Notice how the key factor, if you want to go by the novel, is Sidious speed. Once he slows down, Mace disarms him.

Mace Windu couldn't overcome Darth Sidious even when he had the assistance of Kit Fisto, who is extremely talented with a lightsaber, fighting along side him. They'd fought together before, suggesting experience with one another and they knew how to complement the other's fighting ability... really, Nai, if Mace could "megapwn!11!" Sidious in a lightsaber duel -- he would have done so when Fisto was helping him.

Yet he didn't.

You're still acting as if Mace and Kit kept raining down strikes on Sidious together - which didn't happen - and as if Mace was completely using all he could in that situation - which also didn't happen. And of course Mace can't pwn Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Why ? Because Sidious can enchant his natural abilities better because of superior force mastery. At least unless you want to tell me that Sidious sheer bladework rivals that of Mace Windu - after he didn't touch a lightsaber for roughly a decade. And that was the entire point in the actual discussion: That Exar Kun (if you grant him to be "head and shoulders above Anakin" in terms of force mastery) can boost his natural abilities more than Anakin can. So to state that Anakin would still defeat him in a lightsaber fight, you would have to estimate that Anakin's sheer bladework exceeds that of a guy who knows Anakin's style, uses a style unfamilar to Anakin and a unique weapon that Anakin is also not familiar with. Logic anybody ?

Lol, yes, Nai. But, you see -- the thing is -- generally, when someone wants to take his opponent alive, that is dependent on two factors:

a.) Your opponent isn't armed or in a position to harm you.
b.) You need to remain alive to do it.

...So, by giving Sidious time to regroup and attack again, he compromises both of these, ergo, he is risking allowing the man who manipulated him and his peers for decades roaming free to continue some sort of megasupersecret plan involving galactic dominance.

Pardon if I don't think that Mace Windu would be so stupid to let that happen. 😉

Pardon me if I point out once more that I don't have to argue that point because it visibly happens on screen in the movie. Or does that belong into the "bad choreography" department once more ?

You're beginning to take my argument out-of-context, Nai. Try to keep it rational, here. I'm not arguing Sidious's 'superiority' in combat; I'm saying that Mace didn't initially have the advantage nor the ability to defeat Sidious. The 'poor choreography' involves Sidious's defeat of Masters Tinn and Kolar.

Oh...the choreography is just bad when you want it to be ? Nice to know that, Escape.

Perhaps because, despite the years of inactivity, he's still good enough to keep up with the best of them?

Rofl. Just read that statement, Escape. Really.

Besides, that doesn't necessarily say in itself that he's inferior. Kit Fisto was fighting in the Clone Wars and kept up with his lightsaber skills, yet he can't compare to Sidious, either. Again, according to Lucas, you have to be Yoda or Mace. No one else can compete with Sidious. I will grant you that doesn't say "lightsaber only", either. But -- then again -- in sheer bladework, Yoda himself might be the worst duelist. Afterall, he has to draw on the Force to maintain his agility and mobility more than Sidious himself has to. You have to think about these things, Nai.

Urm. No. I don't need to think about these things because they are exactly what I try to tell you the entire time while you seem to be unwilling to understand it. Because Sidious (like Yoda) can boost his speed and strength beyond almost anybody else, he can keep up and even defeat the people that can't do it to a similar degree. Regardless of their actual ability when it comes down to sheer bladework.

So one could say that the three Jedi he killed are simply not able to anticipate his speed (which is what the novel says pretty much) but Mace is (which is why he stays alive) and once the speed advantage is removed, Sidious can't keep up with Mace when it comes down to sheer combat ability. Hence he's disarmed.

Excuse me? Nai, the last time I checked, Mace didn't force Sidious to do anything -- delving into Vaapad allowed him to match Sidious's speed. Not that he forced the Sith Lord to move slower.

Wrong. "Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the
slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half."

He forces Sidious out of the room which in results in his fear making him drop his speed. That's - of course - the novel interpretation. Possibly Mace's action to destroy the window resulted in the same effect looking at the movie. Point is: Mace forced Sidious to drop his speed and then disarmed him.

And, again, if you're referring to lightsaber combat without using the Force to enhance one's skill and speed and strength, then you have the point, as I mentioned in my first response. But, like I told you, if that's the case, Yoda himself is pure shit when it comes to technical ability. Where would he be if he did not have the Force to enhance his speed and mobility?

Yes, Escape. That was the entire point here. If somebody is above somebody else in terms of speed and strength (aka force powers) the opponent has to have the better bladework to defeat the better force user. Hence I said that Mace's skill with a blade is pretty much above that of Sidious and Sidious was capable of countering that by his superior force mastery.

Err... Nai, I'm a purple belt in Tae Kwon Do. Saberfighting and fencing? I'll grant you, I have no experience. But with martial arts? Lol, yeah. I tied for first place in my division (ironically, the adult division here) in Bowling Green's competition.

Which is nice. Then you can tell us all how easy it is to aim a kick on a moving target on the size of two human hands (which would be what Mace did to disarm Sidious) in comparison to lean over and grap somebodies arms. I'm sure you'll spot a difference there.

A fight's a fight, Nai. Grappling is as valid and as legitimate as a kick or a punch; in fact, overwhelming someone with a kick doesn't suggest any superiority with a blade.

Valid and legitimate ? Yes. As difficult as disarm sobody with a kick hitting his weapon ? Nope. And I know that this doesn't suggest superiority with a blade. See above for that.

Does Windu disarm Sidious by blade superiority? No. He disarms him -- ironically -- with superior physical ability. The same thing you credit to Anakin's victory.

In the novel - he does. However. The fact remains that Mace, while Sidious had the speed advantage, was still able to drive the Sith Lord back. Suggestion: He was superior when it came to bladework. You can't really state the same if you compare Anakin to Dooku.

Err... since the 'mindset' is an integral part of mastering the form itself, yes, it's part of a 'pure lightsaber duel'. Mace's shatterpoint ability is a natural strength of his, so yes, it also belongs there. Boosting one's physical abilities is not the same as using a Force push or Force lightning, which are regarded as offensive Force techniques. Using the Force to enhance something that you will attack another with is not an "offensive Force maneuver" per se. Whereas a Force push, Force lightning, Force Storm, and so forth are direct Force-based attacks intended to harm, kill, or neutralize an opponent.

Excuse me, Escape. But if you include Mace's Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability again, how do you want to argue that Sidious would win a fight under that conditions. There would be no difference to what we've seen in the movie...

Aside of that, to come to the original topic, I still don't see how excluding offensive force powers (which would be pretty stupid anyway) would help Anakin to win against Exar Kun.

Nope. According to REX and several websites, G-Canon includes: George Lucas's interpretations, Lucas's published notes, the movies, the novelizations of the movies, and the scripts.

And according to Leland Chee who has more to say on the issue the parts of the novelizations that aren't coming from Lucas directly (which would be everything we don't see in the movie) is C-Canon. There you go.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Good god Nai.. Increasing your natural strength doesn't make you a better lightsaber duelist.. I don't know why you're playing dumb. If you have a problem with this, see Dooku vs, Anakin, Mace vs. Sidious, Kun vs. Ulic, etc. These fights completely trump your ridiculous assertions.

And how do they trumb my assertions ? Did Anakin outduel Dooku with superior blade mastery ? Nope. Next. Did Mace outduel Sidious with superior blade masttery ? Nope. Next. Did Ulic outduel Kun ? Nope. The fight had no conclusion but notice who did end up as new Dark Lord of the Sith. Ups. So what is it I should see from that fights ?

And it's not through superior face mastery that makes Yoda a great lightsaber duelist Nai. His force mastery is what allows him to flip and not get tired.

It actually allows him to pretty much dodge every attack thrown at him without effort (see Shadow Hunter where he displays that ability) and therefore go 100 % offensive. To state that his force mastery has nothing to do with his duelling skill is pretty stupid - especially because his fastness and mad movement abilities are always sited to why he's such a dangerous duellist.

Him training with a saber for nearly 9 centuries and having incredible raw force potential is what makes him a great lightsaber duelist.

Nice way to own yourself. So his raw force potential makes him a great duellist but his force mastery doesn't ? Go and play leapfrog with a unicorn, idiot.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And how do they trumb my assertions ? Did Anakin outduel Dooku with superior blade mastery ? Nope. Next. Did Mace outduel Sidious with superior blade masttery ? Nope. Next. Did Ulic outduel Kun ? Nope. The fight had no conclusion but notice who did end up as new Dark Lord of the Sith. Ups. So what is it I should see from that fights ?

It actually allows him to pretty much dodge every attack thrown at him without effort (see Shadow Hunter where he displays that ability) and therefore go 100 % offensive. To state that his force mastery has nothing to do with his duelling skill is pretty stupid - especially because his fastness and mad movement abilities are always sited to why he's such a dangerous duellist.

Nice way to own yourself. So his raw force potential makes him a great duellist but his force mastery doesn't ? Go and play leapfrog with a unicorn, idiot. [/B]

Hey dumbshit, don't ***** because you make the most ludicrous assertions a 3 year old wouldn't even dare to. If you can't be civil, then shut the hell up. Learn to READ.. 800+ years in lightsaber training+raw abilities=great lightsaber duelist. Force mastery= ability to jump, spin, summersault, etc, at 800+ years. Yet his "force mastery" wasn't good enough to defeat a 63 year old sith lord.. I guess you don't understand the concept of force potential. IF you did you'd understand it's the reason that someone like Anakin can become a saber god in a fraction of the time it would take someone like Mace or Yoda.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The first scene, yes. The later ones? Not so much. Stover takes a philosophical approach and describes what the combatants are feeling. It's rare he describes a fight scene with many, if any, detailed moves

He's totally off with the Dooku VS Anakin / Obi-Wan stuff. His interpretation of the fight between Obi-Wan and Grievous (where Obi-Wan first kills several hundret droids before engaging the General) is also pretty off. And Sidious VS the three Jedi is also pretty far away from the movie interpretation (Tiin is beheaded, Kolar receives a stab into the forhead, Fisto is also beheaded). And because of that some lines of thought from the combatants don't make much sense.

Yes, but the Mace we know and love should have lept to meet Palpatine in midair...before the saber was even lit, even, Mace should be vaulting across that room with the speed that almost broke Kar Vastor's nose before he completed a blink

Technically spoken: Yes. The point is: He is accompanied with three rather good Jedi Masters and enters the office to arrest a single person who's actual force mastery he wasn't capable of measuring before. Even when Sidious draws the weapon. That was still a 4on1 situation. I mean...how could they expect to get jumped there ? Yet still Mace does move into a defensive position at least while the rest of the group doesn't even react.

Yes. However, that group you listed trumps just about anyone from any era. The group I'd put at the top of almost anyone, but still trumped by the tops from the other eras

Yes. The point is that there are almost 20,000 years of the history of the Jedi Order which are totally uncovered by actual source material. Thus, even if there is just one Jedi in every generation being a better duellist than them, they would still end up somewhere in the Top 1000. The point is that certain people are simply playing in their own league.

We also have Vader fighting much better against Luke in ESB than he does in ANH....
That Mace reacts with a defensive position means little-he fails to save either of them, attack Palpatine when he is very clearly going to attack, and his fighting shortly thereafter? Nai, you can't deny you said that it looked like you could take him there with how badly SLJ was doing

Of course I could have taken SLJ there. I'd even go so far to say that I could mob up him and Ian together rather easily. The point is that Mace is the only person showing any reaction to Sidious igniting his blade. How that reaction looked is an entire different story.

In regards to combat? When it includes people like Dooku, Depa, Mace, Yoda, Anakin?

The point is Lightsnake, that they didn't see much lightsaber to lightsaber fights in the past 1,000 years. I simply don't see why the average Jedi in the PT era should be better with a lightsaber then people who lived in ages that were coined by confrontation between Jedi and Sith.

I'd be shocked if they weren't surprised-with how much Palp's choreography telegraphs his attacks there? Come on...Mace could have moved forward, used the Force...SOMETHING other than letting his comrades die.

Once Sidious landed ? Nope. I don't think so. He could possibly have reacted faster after Sidious did cut Tiin and Kolar down. Granted. But I mean. Had I stood there and seen how some old men lept over a freaking table to cut down two people I thought of being some of the best duellist ever I possibly would have stood there and thought "WTF ?" before doing anything.

Well, with Mace v. Kun...Kun in force, Mace in saber and neither by much.
As for Anakin....well, with saber I can see how it could be somewhat ambiguous there, but I'll admit Kun's above in the force

Urm. Sorry. I meant Anakin and not Mace. And I still don't get how Kun vs Anakin in lightsaber combat would be "ambiguous".

PRetty much, from here on, I can see Kun being on equal footing with the high Yoda/Mace/Palpatine tiers

OMG ! *Jaw drops to groundlevel*

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The fact that being a superior force user doesn't mean shit in lightsaber combat.. THATS the point I trumped. You can come here and claim that ANakin made one lucky move, but as soon as he immersed himself in the dark side, he outdueled Dooku. Mace eventually outdueled Sidious with his shatterpoint and Vaapad. Ulic stalemated a SUPERIOR force user in Kun. What DONT you understand?

What is it you don't understand ? Outduel means that they defeated their opponents through superior skill with the blade which did not happen. Got that now ? Your entire argument for Anakin being an uber saber combatant is based on a single action he didn't even use his saber in. Did that reach your brain now ?

And Kun is not only the superior force user (by far if I might add that) he also seems to be the superior guy when it comes to bladework. Unless you can show me where Anakin invented his own lightsaber form, mastered multiple styles, created his own unique shape of lightsaber and toyed almost anybody else in lightsaber combat he did ever confront. You might want to read "Path of Destruction" for further information on what it means to fight somebody equipped with a double-blade and then add the fact that Kun can switch the length and intensity of his blades while fighting.

Ok if you want to play the word game, we'll play. Force mastery CAN play a role in a lightsaber fight, but being the superior force use in no way guarantees any kind of victory in lightsaber combat.

We can also play the "DS doesn't have an argument and is just a mindless troll" game and remark upon the fact that you've still not presented a single line of thought (aka an argument) for why Anakin should be able to defeat Exar Kun in lightsaber combat. Which is pretty astonishing.

Hey dumbshit, don't ***** because you make the most ludicrous assertions a 3 year old wouldn't even dare to. If you can't be civil, then shut the hell up. Learn to READ..

*yawn* Pathetic. Next please.

800+ years in lightsaber training+raw abilities=great lightsaber duelist. Force mastery= ability to jump, spin, summersault, etc, at 800+ years. Yet his "force mastery" wasn't good enough to defeat a 63 year old sith lord.. I guess you don't understand the concept of force potential. IF you did you'd understand it's the reason that someone like Anakin can become a saber god in a fraction of the time it would take someone like Mace or Yoda.

Your "saber god" obviously hadn't enough saber skill or "force potential" to avoid a nice lava bath against the guy who was almost singled out of the Jedi Order. Obviously you don't get anything here.

The point is that Anakin, while being one of the best duellists around, is just a form V master with exceptional skill. So is Kun. Now can you please (note: I'm being extremely civil here) explain me how you add knowledge of multiple forms, greater force mastery, a unique style and a unique weapon to that equation on Kun's side and then come to the conclusion that Anakin will win a lightsaber fight ?

Because that's like putting two equal weights on a scale, then add more weight to the one side and still assume that the weight you've put additional weight on will weigh less. Got that now ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
What is it you don't understand ? Outduel means that they defeated their opponents through superior skill with the blade which did not happen. Got that now ? Your entire argument for Anakin being an uber saber combatant is based on a single action he didn't even use his saber in. Did that reach your brain now ?

And Kun is not only the superior force user (by far if I might add that) he also seems to be the superior guy when it comes to bladework. Unless you can show me where Anakin invented his own lightsaber form, mastered multiple styles, created his own unique shape of lightsaber and toyed almost anybody else in lightsaber combat he did ever confront. You might want to read "Path of Destruction" for further information on what it means to fight somebody equipped with a double-blade and then add the fact that Kun can switch the length and intensity of his blades while fighting.

We can also play the "DS doesn't have an argument and is just a mindless troll" game and remark upon the fact that you've still not presented a single line of thought (aka an argument) for why Anakin should be able to defeat Exar Kun in lightsaber combat. Which is pretty astonishing.

Your "saber god" obviously hadn't enough saber skill or "force potential" to avoid a nice lava bath against the guy who was almost singled out of the Jedi Order. Obviously you don't get anything here.

The point is that Anakin, while being one of the best duellists around, is just a form V master with exceptional skill. So is Kun. Now can you please (note: I'm being extremely civil here) explain me how you add knowledge of multiple forms, greater force mastery, a unique style and a unique weapon to that equation on Kun's side and then come to the conclusion that Anakin will win a lightsaber fight ?

Because that's like putting two equal weights on a scale, then add more weight to the one side and still assume that the weight you've put additional weight on will weigh less. Got that now ? [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
YOU claim that the superior force user should be able to SOMEHOW outduel an inferior force user in saber combat. I not only showed you that not only are they independent of each other, but the superior force user doesn't necessarily win in a saber bout. Does that compute?

And you're trying to argue that the inferior force user and inferior saber combatant is going to win a lightsaber duel while trying to hand it out as fact that actual force mastery plays no role in lightsaber combat. Yet you do that while siting ambigious duels. Anakin VS Dooku: We know that Anakin had the greater force potential and we know that (see Luke in DE or ROTJ) some parts of said potential can be spontaneously activated. Is RotJ Luke a saber god because he was able to overcome the far more experienced Vader with a anger-fueled assault ?
In the duel of Mace vs Sidious, going by the novel, it's said that Mace was just capable of disarming Sidious when the Sith Lord sacrificed some of the power he used to enchance his speed to maintain a better grip on the ground.
And Ulic VS Kun ? There was no winner in this fight. And you should think about the fact that Ulic, without access to the force, was still capable of withstanding the assaults of an enraged Jedi (Sylvar) so I don't think you can talk down the influence of force mastery on lightsaber duels using that instance because he managed to last 30 seconds (maybe) against Exar Kun (who wasn't even in his top shape there compared to his own self half a year later).

Well gee Nai, I didn't know inventing your own saber and style make you a saber god. I guess the inventor of the winchester rifle is super human. Since when does inventing your own saber and style make you a great duelist?

Wow. It's nice that you site the invention of the weapon but ignore the invention of the style. So I guess that Bruce Lee, while inventing Jeet Kun Do, had no idea about martial arts, correct ? You think there is a reason why Exar Kun is the first person in the SW universe (considering reallife time of the releases) that is shown to wield two blades at once and is the first to use a double-bladed lightsaber ? This aside from extremely uncommon blade movements he's performing in the comics (constant rotation of his lightsaber when wielded with one hand, constant switching of the blade hand). Obviously Kun is an extraordinary lightsaber combatant even when he still trains under Vodo.

Kun's ultimate saber feat was pwning Vodo and stalemating Ulic. Anakin WON the saber duel against Dooku. Yet again you can ***** and moan about how he got lucky, but he DID beat Dooku in saber combat after immersing himself in the dark side. I don't even know why you're throwing in POD into this debate. I don't know whether you're purposely playing stupid or you're just ignorant, because in POD, Bane, who was really a saber neophyte, was able to eventually learn every double bladed move backwards and forwards, and it was only AFTER Kas'im showed him the jar'kai style, was Bane owned.

I'd say the list of people which did completely tool several century old Jedi Masters that were listed as "experienced duellist" and are shown to train the students of other masters in lightsaber combat is rather short. And for Ulic: The list of people without force sensitivity capable of holding their own against enraged Jedi in straight forward melee combat is also pretty short. Ulic is capable of doing that. I guess he was on an entirely different level when he had his force control and fought in a more aggressive way.

Yet still Anakin didn't overcome Dooku with his superior bladework (get it into your head) but overpowered him physically which he can't do with Kun. Got that ? Or to explain it to you in detail:

a) You seem to estimate that Dooku is similar to Kun. Which isn't the case. Kun is a much more aggressive fighter (notice that Dooku's style is based on counter-attacking and rather defensive) and physically fitter (raw physical power) then Dooku. They simply aren't compareable.

b) You seem to estimate that Anakin defeated Dooku because he's the superior lightsaber duellist. Again this isn't the case. Dooku's bladework is still superior to that of Anakin seen when he still deflects Anakin's most powerful swings rather easily when Anakin is already utilizing the Dark Side. Anakin overpowered him physically by using a highly unconventional move. Once more: He wouldn't do that with Kun.

c) You seem to estimate that Vodo and Ulic both don't hold any water to Dooku. Once more: Vodo is a very experienced duellist and seems to be the TOTJ era Battlemaster while Ulic is also exceptionally gifted in terms of lightsaber ability proven by the fact that he could contend with an enraged Jedi after having been stripped from his force connection.

And I did side POD because it pretty clearly says that it's pretty hard to predict the movements of a double-blade. And it's nice how you ignore that Bane went through months of personal training with a master of that weapon before he was capable of anticipating it's movement. You might remind me where Anakin did the same, though.

I suggest you look up the definition for troll, as you started the name calling after throwing around a pathetic excuse for an argument. I should be calling YOU troll. What exactly have you provided for Kun? OH right, "omgz he invented his own saber and style, he must be zeh uber saber g0d". Except Anakin was able to PWN Dooku (yes *****), while Kun was able to pwn Vodo. Congratulations, you have no argument.

Except Anakin didn't pwn Dooku. He defeated him, yes. But that wasn't "ownage" on any degree especially since we see Dooku outright flooring Anakin who was attacking him from behind before and still being capable to contend with a Dark Side using Anakin. The same Dark Side using Anakin that was not able to overpower Obi-Wan Kenobi with his bladework. And Kun toyed with Vodo which indicates an entirely different level of superiority in comperison to that what Anakin had over Dooku.

Your point is yet again defeated because the terms of the fight were well known, as are the ones between Bane and Kas'im. So please, stop pwning yourself with your pathetic attempts at logic. Not to mention, I never stated he was a saber god, but that he had the potential above anybody else and as a result of that he was able to learn quicker than others.

Wow. Forgetting what you've posted in that short amount of time. Must be a bad case of Alzheimer there. Let me quote yourself: "IF you did you'd understand it's the reason that someone like Anakin can become a saber god in a fraction of the time it would take someone like Mace or Yoda."

And so Anakin isn't a saber god. Bad news for you: Kun is.

Multiple forms? So you're saying Anakin only knew one form? Greater force mastery is irrelevant and I've shown you why, so stop posting that.

Let me see. Anakin most likely practiced form I (like any other Jedi), form V (his main style) and some Jar'Kai (seen in AotC). Kun is seen using form V, has been noted to have used form II, was most likely trained in form I like anybody else, used Jar'Kai on a more regular basis then Anakin and then came up with his own, unique style. Yes. I guess he knows more forms than Anakin does. And greater force mastery is irrelevant when you want to argue that greater strength, agility and speed have no influence on a duel - which would be unbelieveable stupid.