Originally posted by deadspeak25LOL no worries, I think I went a little overboard on that one.
I'll concede that you are right in that point.
Originally posted by deadspeak25Clarify one thing for me as I'm a little fuzzy,
if the HOTU makes you the supreme being. . .
if it is basically the supreme beings power.Who created it
THOTI is just an extension of what the Supreme being is, God!
Tapping into it, you tap into God's power. (like Akhenaten)
Merge with it, you merge with God's power. (like Thanos)
Thus Thanos became God!
================================
Now, this is the tricky part,
as we understand it, TOAA is more than God in a Marvel story,
TOAA is actually a being (artist) that draws everything we read on panel,
and his "Collaborator" (writer) gives him the ideas to put on panel.
Therefore Thanos, THOTI and the story itself, including ALL Marvel stories,
are just ideas giving life to on paper by TOAA (two beings - the artist and the writer)
================================
So what are we left with?
Thanos became the almighty Supreme being God of the Omniverse because TOAA willed it.
TOAA wills everything, everything that takes place on panel.
TOAA is subject to the whims of writers and artists of the real world,
because after all, that is who TOAA really is, represented on panel by avatars.
We know this because Marvel has translated the characters' description
as one who draws everything we read.
Originally posted by deadspeak25and what is the point of the creation?
It was created to save the entire Marvel Universe. (literally according to Jim Starlin)
So, Starlin/Milgrom (TOAA) wanted to erase all of Marvel, but re-create it as well,
so they created a "Flaw" in the 616 reality,
that was going to destroy the entire Marvel Universe.
They made it so nothing but the complete re-creation of Marvel would fix the "flaw."
It had to be done right, and only the Supreme power was up to the task,
so Starlin/Milgrom (TOAA)
created a source of power that contained the energies of the Supreme being.
At-least what the Supreme being would be withIN the pages they draw on.
(and the pages they draw on represent all of Marvel ... the entire Marvel Universe!)
================================
And that's it.
Thanos finally schemes his way to the source (THOTI) dives in and merges.
Soon enough he realizes TOAA allowed him to reach his goal,
and there was a purpose,
for Thanos to become a healer, although he's known as a nihilist.
And so Thanos saved all reality by absorbing then re-creating the entire Marvel Universe.
He finally destroyed the source (HOTI) itself,
realizing no one should have this power.
[QUOTE=10638595]Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]
Therefore Thanos, THOTI and the story itself, including ALL Marvel stories,
are just ideas giving life to on paper by TOAA (two beings - the artist and the writer)
Okay I think maybe this part is what all the difference between the two comic companies. As far as I know DC doesn't have anything that goes higher than Presence/Rama Kashnu/Meshta. I'm not too sure but I don't believe the writers play any part in their universe.
================================
Thanos became the almighty Supreme being God of the Omniverse because TOAA willed it.
Why? To fix the flaw. Why couldn't the almight supreme being fix it itself
It had to be done right, and only the Supreme power was up to the task,
so Starlin/Milgrom (TOAA)
created a source of power that contained the energies of the Supreme being.
But what about the already present supreme being? why create an item that does what something that is already created can do?
Originally posted by deadspeak25I only argue about on panel beings. It gets utterly ridiculous when you start bringing writers into these debates. On panel Thanos was supreme and thats my whole point and he also has feats to suggest he takes this.
[QUOTE=10638595]Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]Therefore Thanos, THOTI and the story itself, including ALL Marvel stories,
are just ideas giving life to on paper by TOAA (two beings - the artist and the writer)Okay I think maybe this part is what all the difference between the two comic companies. As far as I know DC doesn't have anything that goes higher than Presence/Rama Kashnu/Meshta. I'm not too sure but I don't believe the writers play any part in their universe.
================================
Thanos became the almighty Supreme being God of the Omniverse because TOAA willed it.
Why? To fix the flaw. Why couldn't the almight supreme being fix it itself
It had to be done right, and only the Supreme power was up to the task,
so Starlin/Milgrom (TOAA)
created a source of power that contained the energies of the Supreme being.But what about the already present supreme being? why create an item that does what something that is already created can do?
Originally posted by quanchi112
I only argue about on panel beings. It gets utterly ridiculous when you start bringing writers into these debates. On panel Thanos was supreme and thats my whole point and he also has feats to suggest he takes this.
I still think this match is a stalemate, but since there are really no scans of the presence and that's what you're basing it on I'll let it go. I will leave you with this though, of course judging feats is important because that's what we have to go on when we are compairing the characters, but what it comes down to it, why should the presence have any feats? Dc doesn't involve their extreme cosmics nearly as much as marvel. . .if the comics lead people to believe that the Presence is the be all end all, how can we really argue?
Originally posted by deadspeak25The presence exists in all of creation. But whatever floats your boat. Someone created this thread and I responded. Thats all. Imo presence should be left out of threads.
I still think this match is a stalemate, but since there are really no scans of the presence and that's what you're basing it on I'll let it go. I will leave you with this though, of course judging feats is important because that's what we have to go on when we are compairing the characters, but what it comes down to it, why should the presence have any feats? Dc doesn't involve their extreme cosmics nearly as much as marvel. . .if the comics lead people to believe that the Presence is the be all end all, how can we really argue?
Originally posted by kevdudeI believe the TOAA is a writer and isnt a fictional character, thus I dont debate writers vs fictional beings as its silly to me.
Do you believe Thanos w/thotu did something TOAA couldn't do or is equal to him?
Thanos with the heart is the most powerful character on panel with the feats to back him up.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I only argue about on panel beings. It gets utterly ridiculous when you start bringing writers into these debates. On panel Thanos was supreme and thats my whole point and he also has feats to suggest he takes this.
I don't think it's ridiculous ^^. The Marvel Company will always have the power over it's fictional beings. That is the power of TOAA or the Presence for that matter.
If a writer or Marvel (TOAA) would have changed his mind during the end, he could let Thanos with the HOTI be defeated by LT or Squirrel Girl, it would just happen.
Thanos can't force a RL company to do as he wish, he isn't real. That's why he can't beat or even stalemate the Presence, DC wouldn't even bother by an attack from a fictional char 😛 and if then their lawyers would finish him off ^^.
IF we accept the fact that TOAA is the Marvel company and the Presence is the DC company then there is nothing on panel that can defeat them, because in the end they decide what is and what is not on panel^^.
Maybe we should change this to Thanos with HOTI vs Yahwe?
Originally posted by cloud102
DC does have an Omniverse, which was explained and shown in The Next.The Presence has also been shown outside of Vertigo. As for who would win?
THE PRESENCE.
I think it's the greatest fault in those discussions here that we assume that ONE Marvel Universe works the same way or has the same size or the same power as ONE DC Universe. Those terms are handled differently by both companies.
In the end you will be left with the Marvel Universe (which calls itself an Omniverse, that is infinite) and the DC Universe, which is also infinite.
Both are equally powerful, you just have to look at the crossovers 😉.
I like the way Marvel handles it's Universe better, you have a ton of powerful cosmic beings that keep their universe clean and smooth.
Most Marvel heroes don't stand a chance ageinst them.
In DC you have also some powerful cosmic beings but there are a lot of superheroes which are also comics beings themselves, and those are powerful enough to challange even the most powerful cosmic beings.
I think if DC and Marvel would be the same company you would have seen Parallax defeat LT instead of the Spectre 😉.
Originally posted by deadspeak25Why? To fix the flaw. Why couldn't the almight supreme being fix it itself
TOAA has only appeared on panel as representational avatars of real world aritsts/writers.
So, even though it's obviously a fictional representation,
it nevertheless is a representation of real human beings.
Which makes TOAA inconsequential when trying to integrate it into the hierarchy.
ie.
The Living Tribunal holds the power of Two MegaverseS in one hand,
in the other hand, he spins the destiny of the Alpha & Omega,
yet, the LT with control over Marvel's beginning and end,
is still just a drawing on TOAA's canvas.
This is why I won't categorize TOAA with any other entity or being,
because it's senseless and unfair to do so,
like I said, everything in the Marvel Universe is just a figment of his/their imagination.
Originally posted by deadspeak25But what about the already present supreme being?
why create an item that does what something that is already created can do?
Actually come to think about it,
the Supreme being DOES get involved (indirectly sorta speak)
not only did TOAA create the "flaw" but TOAA also created the means of fixing it. (HOTI)
So in essence, TOAA invents/creates a problem on panel,
and then TOAA invents/creates a solution for his artwork to deal with.
This is how it works for every single entity/being and story in Marvel.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeThe Marvel Company will always have the power over it's fictional beings.
That is the power of TOAA or the Presence for that matter.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeIf a writer or Marvel (TOAA) would have changed his mind during the end,
he could let Thanos with the HOTI be defeated by LT or Squirrel Girl,
it would just happen.
TOAA would never have Squirrel girl of LT defeat THOTI.
Because it would completely contradict continuity.
Technically TOAA could, as technically writers/artists could do anything,
but at the risk of conveying a senseless contradiction, I think not.
Writers/artists are given freedom by the Editor in-Chief to do as they please,
but they MUST adhere to continuity, otherwise it becomes insensible PIS to readers.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeThanos can't force a RL company to do as he wish, he isn't real. That's why he can't beat or even stalemate the Presence, DC wouldn't even bother by an attack from a fictional char and if then their lawyers would finish him off ^^.
This has been proven.
For instance,
the Presence has a family on panel,
like Lucy and Michael his sons
the Presence has aspects of himself on panel,
like the "Word" the "Source" and others,
the Presence even has a polar opposite, the GEB.
Meh, the Presence himself said it:
"I'm infinite and eternal, but even I was shaped by external forces"
............................................................................................
TOAA, literally, is an artists that draws everything that takes place on panel in Marvel.
TOAA does NOT have any affiliation of any kind with any other drawing,
except that TOAA creates/draws every illustration that appears on panel.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeIF we accept the fact that TOAA is the Marvel company and the Presence is the DC company then there is nothing on panel that can defeat them, because in the end they decide what is and what is not on panel^^.
Morrison and Carlin created representational avatars of writers/artists on panel.
These, and others writers that might do the same,
are the real "Gods" of DC!
The Presence is a drawing,
or idea on a piece of paper that was created by this type of Morrison avatar.
The Presence is an entity that's intergrated into the DC divine reality,
he has family, aspects of himself, and even a polar opposite.
Morrison did not identify with his creation as an equal, opposite or inferior existence,
but rather as what they really are,
just a drawing on a piece of paper.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I think it's the greatest fault in those discussions here that we assume that ONE Marvel Universe works the same way or has the same size or the same power as ONE DC Universe. Those terms are handled differently by both companies.
In the end you will be left with the Marvel Universe (which calls itself an Omniverse, that is infinite) and the DC Universe, which is also infinite.
Both are equally powerful, you just have to look at the crossovers 😉.
DC>Marvel
Originally posted by Batman-PrimePresence isnt the writer but on on panel being. One in which Thanos could easily absorb.
I don't think it's ridiculous ^^. The Marvel Company will always have the power over it's fictional beings. That is the power of TOAA or the Presence for that matter.If a writer or Marvel (TOAA) would have changed his mind during the end, he could let Thanos with the HOTI be defeated by LT or Squirrel Girl, it would just happen.
Thanos can't force a RL company to do as he wish, he isn't real. That's why he can't beat or even stalemate the Presence, DC wouldn't even bother by an attack from a fictional char 😛 and if then their lawyers would finish him off ^^.
IF we accept the fact that TOAA is the Marvel company and the Presence is the DC company then there is nothing on panel that can defeat them, because in the end they decide what is and what is not on panel^^.
Maybe we should change this to Thanos with HOTI vs Yahwe?
Most of your post is arguing areal person vs Thanos with the heart which I dont do and its just speculation. I debate with the facts I am presented with and dont come up with what if scenarios.
