Captain America v.s. Punisher

Originally posted by Alfheim
But my point is that it doesnt make any logical sense but hes done it many times so it doesnt matter if it doesnt make sense.

You said it was hypocrisy so I'm assuming hypocrisy WAS YOUR POINT...
This will be our first example of your piss poor ability to convey trains of thought.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ive never used any Ennis fights to prove that Punsiher can beat DD

Example two..

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah where did I use Ennis as proof that Pun can beat DD or Cap? Please show me.

Right here:

Originally posted by Alfheim
What like the last fight were Frank beat up DD badly and dislocated DDs arm?

Which once again whether you know it or not WAS AN ENNIS FIGHT. 😐

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well thats why Frank loses the majority, so you're just ranting here.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Hell even if you look at the fights were DD beats Frank sometimes its just circumstances for example there is one fight were a bullet bounces off the ground and into Franks leg and he lost the fight due to this.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Another fight Frank was losing to DD but got KOed because he wanted to get somebody to hospital......

DD wasn't losing that fight. Punisher was on the reieving end before it got interrupted.

Originally posted by Alfheim
but there are some fights that Frank could have possibly won and one where he has.....and thats why I could steal at least two from Cap.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok lets put it this way. Didnt you just accuse me of using Einnis as evidence in this thread? Could you please show me where I have.

Originally posted by Alfheim
If I havent used Einnis and you have said I have that means you have a problem not me. Hell Battlehammer accused me of saying that I said Cap wins the majority against Wolverine, I showed him clearly in black and white were I didnt say that, so again im not the one with the problem.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well at least your starting to come around to the possibility that I wasnt backtracking which is a start. 😄 I dont think I did a bad job I did explain in detail the second time what I meant. So even if you misunderstood me the first time I explained it in detail the second time.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah it does my point was that you cant say that Cap can KO Thunderball and not KO Luke Cage my point is that its a contradiction. My point was also that saying that Punisher cant shoot Spiderman but say that Wolverine can take shots from the Hulk is a contradiction.

Once again for one, I'M not trying to justify that Cap can KO Thunderball with one punch..

and; contradiction? again... wtf?

Punisher has shot Spiderman.... ONCE.. out of NUMEROUS encounters where he's failed to do so.. it's an example that objects to numerous examples that contradict it... it's also in objection to the hundreds of times that Spiderman's avoided unfire on levels much worse off than two handguns from Frank.

Wolverine? well he's been taking Hulk shots in every fight they've had and getting up from them since his FIRST APPEARANCE... It's also an example that's in agreement with hundreds of other in which Wolverine's able to successfully stand up to brick punches...

Spiderman getting shot is not a standard.
Wolverine taking brick punches is....
The only contradiction here is you thinking the opposite and trying to present two different colored examples trying to sell to us that they're the same.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Did I say that Wolverine taking shots from the HUlk was PIS?

.....

🤨

What.. in.. the blue hell... do you think exactly that:

Originally posted by jinzin
That's easy:
Cap being able to KO Thunderball, Cap's possibility to KO Luke Cage, Black Panther's supposed speed advantage over Wolverine, ELEKTRA, Wolverine's ability to take punishement from bricks, OR the explanation behind any one of those things has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this thread, the fight, OR Soljers opinion of the fight's outcome. Thus, you ranting on about all of those things at once is nothing more than a bunch of nonsense. 😐

had ANYTHING to do with Wolverine, Hulk, or PIS?

🤨

Originally posted by pr1983
i don't like people being patronising, and i particularly dont like it when people condescend and at the same time try to hide it, both of which you were doing...

you aren't the only one i mentioned, so stop acting like i'm picking on you...

punisher beat DD in a fight? written by ennis? and this is the guy they get to write x-men? aww hell...

lol ridiculous isn't it?

But never fear I think you're thinking of ELLIS.

Originally posted by Citizen V
Don't worry, Ennis has his odd moments, but he's a very solid writer most of the time and has a lot of experience and well received books under his belt already (which, if you haven't read already, you really should):

Preacher.
Hitman.
Punisher MAX.
And lots more.

Not that it matters, because it's [B]WARREN ELLIS that will be writing AXM 🙄. [/B]

lol.. yeah what he said..

I dunno, Ennis is an OK writer I suppose. I mean in terms of overal storyline he's okay and he does some pretty nice scenes with humor.. but he just doesn't need to be writing superhero comics if he doesn't like super heroes. It's that simple.

It's also immature for a guy like that to let personal bias infringe on character representation.. I mean I don't think much personally of Cyclops but I wouldn't be writing Wolverine to be beating him in fights or anything...
It lacks a bit of class when you toss aside a characters history, powers or attributes simply because you don't like them. at least in my opinion.

The last DD vs Pun fight was written by Einnis? The fight of Pun beating DD was published in 2006 and was wriiten by David Lapham.....wasnt it...well thats the info I got.

The last Punisher stuff that Einnis wrote I think was in 2004.

hmm maybe you're right.. I thought that the tri-fight came after or during their duo mini.. but perhaps you're right about the publication dates.. if so.. sorry then.

Originally posted by jinzin
hmm maybe you're right.. I thought that the tri-fight came after or during their duo mini.. but perhaps you're right about the publication dates.. if so.. sorry then.

I appreciate that you said you were sorry, right..... but can you see why I get angry sometimes. You just accused me of not being able to explain things properly. I never refered to Einnis and ive never used any scans from Einnis in this thread but in your last post you several times accused me of doing this when I havent.

I could also point out there is another example of Battlehammer saying that I said Cap wins the majority when I did not say that. So thats two times of somebody saying stuff I didnt say....and thats not the only example. Now taking this into consideration do you think theres a possibility that I could be right that you might be taking things out of context.....be honest.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but bro the scans.😬 Sure DD will win a majority but if you look at their shwoings Frank should be able to get three wins on DD and two on Cap.

i can't see him getting three off matt without a serious bit of good luck... dd's abilites should be more than a match for frank's imo...

of course i'm someone who thinks that cap and dd would have an even split... 😛

Who knows I think Frank actually can take more punishment than DD it could be argued in some fights which got interrupted Frank could have evntually won because he takes more damage and fights dirty.

fighting dirty and taking damage is good, but against someone with superhuman abilities, and skill like matt's... i'm sorry but unless frank is packing anything less than a serious arsenal i can see matt taking him down at least 8/10...

Originally posted by jinzin
But never fear I think you're thinking of ELLIS.

yeah, my bad... 😛

I dunno, Ennis is an OK writer I suppose. I mean in terms of overal storyline he's okay and he does some pretty nice scenes with humor.. but he just doesn't need to be writing superhero comics if he doesn't like super heroes. It's that simple.

i've read punisher max (the last one i read was #46), and i have to be honest, from the few issues i've read i've found it to be quite an enjoyable read, it seems like a really decent book...

It's also immature for a guy like that to let personal bias infringe on character representation.. I mean I don't think much personally of Cyclops but I wouldn't be writing Wolverine to be beating him in fights or anything...

really? to be honest i'm quite surprised you've said that... 😛

It lacks a bit of class when you toss aside a characters history, powers or attributes simply because you don't like them. at least in my opinion.

are we talking about ennis or someone else?

Originally posted by pr1983

fighting dirty and taking damage is good, but against someone with superhuman abilities, and skill like matt's... i'm sorry but unless frank is packing anything less than a serious arsenal i can see matt taking him down at least 8/10...

I'm not saying punisher would take the majority over DD, I think DD takes a solid majority over him actually, but when you say superhuman abilities, are you referring to his senses or physical stats?

Originally posted by Apolloknight
I'm not saying punisher would take the majority over DD, I think DD takes a solid majority over him actually, but when you say superhuman abilities, are you referring to his senses or physical stats?

his senses... he's damn good physically, but i think matt's senses are very underrated...

Originally posted by pr1983
his senses... he's damn good physically, but i think matt's senses are very underrated...

Oh no I agree 110%, matt has some deadly acute senses. I'm just thinking physically, both are really good athletes, I think DD is nearing peak Human levels, Frank probably peak athlete. So although DD does have a slight advantage, I don't think its anything that frank shouldn't be able to contend with. Now DD senses is what gives him the definite edge over Frank. I just thinks Frank physically is underrated a bit as just a guy with a gun, hes in hella good shape, like I said peak athlete IMO.

But that's off topic, and I still think Cap takes a solid majority.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Oh no I agree 110%, matt has some deadly acute senses. I'm just thinking physically, both are really good athletes, I think DD is nearing peak Human levels, Frank probably peak athlete. So although DD does have a slight advantage, I don't think its anything that frank shouldn't be able to contend with. Now DD senses is what gives him the definite edge over Frank. I just thinks Frank physically is underrated a bit as just a guy with a gun, hes in hella good shape, like I said peak athlete IMO.

But that's off topic, and I still think Cap takes a solid majority.

i don't want to underestimate frank, not in the slightest, he's in great shape, and incredibly well trained... i just think matt's senses give him too much of an edge over frank...

i said frank too much...

captain america ftw

Originally posted by Alfheim
I appreciate that you said you were sorry, right..... but can you see why I get angry sometimes. You just accused me of not being able to explain things properly. I never refered to Einnis and ive never used any scans from Einnis in this thread but in your last post you several times accused me of doing this when I havent.

Again I'm sorry for getting the publication dates confused.. The problem with you remains the same though.. specificity.. you don't have it, you don't use it, and it causes problems.
It was confusing because, like cap mentioned Punisher did that in THAT fight too.. it came off like that was the fight you were reffering to.
And I wasn't even trying to accuse you of anything I was just explaining the confusion and explaining the the few times Punisher has beaten daredevil don't hold much water because they mainly come from DD stories.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Now taking this into consideration do you think theres a possibility that I could be right that you might be taking things out of context.....be honest.

Not really, in terms of point for point debating we usually do a damn good job of staying on track. Again you don't specify a lot of things and you're not good at conveying what you mean when you say things.. So if there's confusion I don't think it has much to do with misuse of context from our behalf...

I mean it's not as if you're a martyr here... You've accused me of my hypocritical but haven't explained that.
You accused me of strawmanning when I wasn't..
And you'e suggested that I've accused you of saying ANYTHING about Wolverine, Hulk, and PIS when I haven't... 😬

And those are just off the top of my head...

Originally posted by pr1983
i've read punisher max (the last one i read was #46), and i have to be honest, from the few issues i've read i've found it to be quite an enjoyable read, it seems like a really decent book...

Yeah I don't disagree. The man does make for some pretty entertaining stuff, it's just that he does it sometimes at the expense of other characters and histories which.. well it makes those moments more of a farce than anything.

Originally posted by pr1983
really? to be honest i'm quite surprised you've said that... 😛

I'm not as much a Wolverine fanboy as most people think. I adore the character, but there's a ton of characters out there who could and have and WOULD mop the floor with the runts midget ass. It's just that he gets put in a lot of fights on KMC that he WOULD and HAS already won... But since people don't like the character, if you support him you get grilled. 🙁
lol

Originally posted by pr1983
are we talking about ennis or someone else?

He had punisher out strategizing and staving off Spiderman, Wolverine, AND Daredevil practically at the same time.
Hell I think he even had Daredevil saying something ridiculous along the lines of "we need to work together to get him" or some such bullshit..

Later in that arc Punisher beat the Hulk too...
Yup.. one man with a shotgun, a trenchcoat, and a couple gas grenades did what the entire U.S. military and Avengers have failed to do and beat the ****in Hulk.. 😐

His whole reasoning was that he thought superheroes were "silly" which is why Wolverine and Spiderman were made to look like total jackass rookies during that storyline and why Matt was the only one to really get an upper hand on Frank (because Matt was the "most realistic"😉... I personally think that's absurd, when you go to work you leave your attitude with fellow employees at home because it doesn't belong on the work floor.. Likewise, when you've got the responsibilities of being a writer on your shoulders, you leave your bias at home and do justice to the characters...

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Oh no I agree 110%, matt has some deadly acute senses. I'm just thinking physically, both are really good athletes, I think DD is nearing peak Human levels, Frank probably peak athlete. So although DD does have a slight advantage, I don't think its anything that frank shouldn't be able to contend with. Now DD senses is what gives him the definite edge over Frank. I just thinks Frank physically is underrated a bit as just a guy with a gun, hes in hella good shape, like I said peak athlete IMO.

But that's off topic, and I still think Cap takes a solid majority.

To be entirely honest I've seen WAAAAAYYY better feats of strength, speed, agility, and stopping power come from Matt than from Frank.. to a degree that's not even funny...

I mean DD casually strolls rooftops jumping 15 to 20 feet off the ground without even stressing himself..
Punisher's best vert is like what? 12 feet? MAYBE and it was just off of one jump.

Daredevil's swung around 400 pounds like a bo-staff.

His ability to bat bullets away speaks for itself.

And the man puts down characters like Hyde, and (actually I forgot the characters name at the moment.. he's a bull headed chap.. I'll get back to you guys on that one lol)

Physically speaking I think the ONLY thing that Punisher has over DD is damage soak. and I just don't think that's enough..

Plus DDs got the radar sense..

And, in terms of fighting skill and intelligence Punisher's straight up admitted his inferiority on a few occasions by now...

Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah I don't disagree. The man does make for some pretty entertaining stuff, it's just that he does it sometimes at the expense of other characters and histories which.. well it makes those moments more of a farce than anything.

well that sucks...

That I don't like Cyclops or that I think he would stomp Wolverine? lol

the latter... 😛

I'm not as much a Wolverine fanboy as most people think. I adore the character, but there's a ton of characters out there who could and have and WOULD mop the floor with the runts midget ass. It's just that he gets put in a lot of fights on KMC that he WOULD and HAS already won... But since people don't like the character, if you support him you get grilled. 🙁
lol

i personally don't like wolverine... i picked cyclops back in the 80s, as i related to him more, and anti heroes just don't often do it for me... so i have a genuine reason... 😛

i'd still try to be honest about him in a fight though...

Ennis...

He had punisher out strategizing and staving off Spiderman, Wolverine, AND Daredevil practically at the same time.
Hell I think he even had Daredevil saying something ridiculous along the lines of "we need to work together to get him" or some such bullshit..

Later in that arc Punisher beat the Hulk too...
Yup.. one man with a shotgun, a trenchcoat, and a couple gas grenades did what the entire U.S. military and Avengers have failed to do and beat the ****in Hulk.. 😐

ok, that's bullshit...

His whole reasoning was that he thought superheroes were "silly" which is why Wolverine and Spiderman were made to look like total jackass rookies during that storyline and why Matt was the only one to really get an upper hand on Frank (because Matt was the "most realistic"😉... I personally think that's absurd, when you go to work you leave your attitude with fellow employees at home because it doesn't belong on the work floor.. Likewise, when you've got the responsibilities of being a writer on your shoulders, you leave your bias at home and do justice to the characters...

if he thinks superheroes are silly, then why the hell is he writing comics? rookies? bah...

shit... i actually thought for a second that this was a dd vs punisher thread... 😖

i give it to cap 7 or 8 out of ten... maybe even 9... i think i posted before...

Yeah that's the thing why WOULD he write comics if he doesn't like spandex clad super heroes.. It's not like he couldn't get a job with more indie styled material...

meh..

Originally posted by pr1983
i can't see him getting three off matt without a serious bit of good luck... dd's abilites should be more than a match for frank's imo...

Bro I did provide a whole load of scans some with explanations. You're entitled to your opinion but its like im providing lots of evidence and its like people arent even responding to the scans. *shrug*

Originally posted by jinzin
Again I'm sorry for getting the publication dates confused.. The problem with you remains the same though.. specificity.. you don't have it, you don't use it, and it causes problems.
It was confusing because, like cap mentioned Punisher did that in THAT fight too.. it came off like that was the fight you were reffering to.

Well even if that happened in an Einnis fight didnt I post scans that showed clearly that I was not refering to Einnis. How could it have come off that I was refering to that fight when I posted scans to verfiy it wasnt?

Originally posted by jinzin

And I wasn't even trying to accuse you of anything I was just explaining the confusion and explaining the the few times Punisher has beaten daredevil don't hold much water because they mainly come from DD stories.

Yes you were. You were using it as an example how I was unclear.

Originally posted by jinzin

Not really, in terms of point for point debating we usually do a damn good job of staying on track. Again you don't specify a lot of things and you're not good at conveying what you mean when you say things.. So if there's confusion I don't think it has much to do with misuse of context from our behalf...

1.Well again I clearly showed scans in full colour that showed that it was not Einnis fight. Serioulsy with all due respect its not like you cant read scans is it?

2. Cap clearly stated that I said Cap takes the majority when I clearly said in black and white that it was a 5 way split and even cap admitted to being wrong.

Originally posted by jinzin

I mean it's not as if you're a martyr here... You've accused me of my hypocritical but haven't explained that.

Yeah I did......saying that its ok to KO thunderball but not for Frank to shoot superhumans in my opinion is hypocrisy when Frank has shown time and time again that he can. Yes and you did say that it was ok for Cap to KO Thunderball I have the quotes at the end of the post.
Cap has consistently hurt or KOed Bricks, Frank has consistently shown he has the ability to shoot superhumans. Hell Cap even has lots of showings were he has problems KOing bricks.

Originally posted by jinzin

You accused me of strawmanning when I wasn't..
And you'e suggested that I've accused you of saying ANYTHING about Wolverine, Hulk, and PIS when I haven't... 😬

And those are just off the top of my head...

Thats just one example. This is why I was trying to get verification. Its also not like I cant misunderstand you if you werent whats the point in telling me im a prattling little **** and making a long post when im not saying that Wolverine taking shots from the Hulk is PIS.

Then theres this.

Originally posted by jinzin
You didn't answer my question... lets try that again.. How is it hypocrisy on MY BEHALF when I'm not the one arguing that it's ok for Cap to KO Thunderball? 😐

Originally posted by jinzin

Plus in terms of sheer stopping power Cap's head and shoulders above Punisher...
Cap can either knock him out with a shield sling or with his "Thunderball KOing" fists o' doom...
You know Captain America's batted around the wrecker right?

So what you're going to tell me that you didnt argue that it was ok for Cap to KO Thunderball. You said you didnt say but you did. Im not the one with the problem here.

Originally posted by jinzin
To be entirely honest I've seen WAAAAAYYY better feats of strength, speed, agility, and stopping power come from Matt than from Frank.. to a degree that's not even funny...

I mean DD casually strolls rooftops jumping 15 to 20 feet off the ground without even stressing himself..

Punisher's best vert is like what? 12 feet? MAYBE and it was just off of one jump.

Ok.

Originally posted by jinzin

Daredevil's swung around 400 pounds like a bo-staff.

Frank has thrown a fully grown man several metres and he wasnt even really trying....thats not bad either.

Originally posted by jinzin

His ability to bat bullets away speaks for itself.

But despite this Frank has deflected his baton on numerous occassions.

Originally posted by jinzin

And the man puts down characters like Hyde, and (actually I forgot the characters name at the moment.. he's a bull headed chap.. I'll get back to you guys on that one lol)

True but Frank has a good showing against Ulik. Frank dodged him for awhile and managed to hurt hum. Ulik is tougher than Mr Hyde so it could be argued that Ulik was a better feat from Frank considering his powerset....so it seems that DD has better feats in some respects but not by a huge margin.

Originally posted by jinzin

Physically speaking I think the ONLY thing that Punisher has over DD is damage soak. and I just don't think that's enough..

To tell you the truth I think Frank knows more about martial arts in general but DD knows several very well and has radar sense. If Frank has radar sense I can see him kicking the **** out of DD.

Originally posted by jinzin

Plus DDs got the radar sense..

...and still gets punched in the face just like everybody else.

Originally posted by jinzin

And, in terms of fighting skill and intelligence Punisher's straight up admitted his inferiority on a few occasions by now...

Yeah thats true but that still doesnt stop him from giving DD a run for his money.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah that's the thing why WOULD he write comics if he doesn't like spandex clad super heroes.. It's not like he couldn't get a job with more indie styled material...

meh..

yeah...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Bro I did provide a whole load of scans some with explanations. You're entitled to your opinion but its like im providing lots of evidence and its like people arent even responding to the scans. *shrug*

i honestly don't know what you want me to say... 😬

Originally posted by pr1983

i honestly don't know what you want me to say... 😬

C'mon man!

1. I got 1 fight were Punisher wins.
2. Another were he could have won but turned his back on DD, DD says your missing unpurpose.
3. Another fight were DD is doing better but Frank is hanging with him.
4. Another fight were Frank loses but nearly wins the fight, Frank busts up DD and dislocates his arm.
5. Others were he loses but he was just unlucky...eg being distracted.

Wat has this turned into DD vs. Punisher...common, just give frank 3/10 against Cap, he deserves it.