Juggernaut vs Odin

Originally posted by Doon
Odin is the most powerful of the Asgardian gods; he's a cosmic level entity. Even Thor, his own son, doesn't come close unless he's in possession of the "Odin Power".

As for Cain, no contest here. Odin can dispatch him with something less than a thought.

We go by showings and not speculation. Odin has NO feats to suggest he can punch harder than 20x the force of Thor's mightiest slams. To suggest that Odin can even harm Juggs is disregarding Juggs feats. Also, it also suggests that Odin's fight with Thanos, Mangog, etc. are all PIS.

Originally posted by h1a8
We go by showings and not speculation. Odin has NO feats to suggest he can punch harder than 20x the force of Thor's mightiest slams. To suggest that Odin can even harm Juggs is disregarding Juggs feats. Also, it also suggests that Odin's fight with Thanos, Mangog, etc. are all PIS.

To suggest Odin can't harm Juggernaut is disregarding Odin's feats. 😐

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
To suggest Odin can't harm Juggernaut is disregarding Odin's feats. 😐

No it's not. It's disregarding Jugg's feats. Jugg is more durable than any character Odin has faced (Thanos, Mangog, etc.). Plus you are not considering that Jugg's durability isn't the only thing the problem here. Jugg's has a very fast HF.

Originally posted by h1a8
No it's not. It's disregarding Jugg's feats. Jugg is more durable than any character Odin has faced (Thanos, Mangog, etc.). Plus you are not considering that Jugg's durability isn't the only thing the problem here. Jugg's has a very fast HF.

Show me feats of Juggernaut tanking or enduring something similar to what Seth did against Odin.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Show me feats of Juggernaut tanking or enduring something similar to what Seth did against Odin.

Is this a trick question? You h1 dont know 🤨 he is talking about!

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Show me feats of Juggernaut tanking or enduring something similar to what Seth did against Odin.

It's funny how members argue differently when debating. Isn't it you and some others here go by averages? I don't have a problem arguing a character at their best shown but I don't like when people trap me in a fence arguing one way then arguing another when it suits them. Choose now and I will argue against whatever viewpoint you have. If Odin has galaxy busting power here then all his fights against Thanos, Mangog, etc. were PIS and can't be used in other threads by you and if it wasn't PIS then Juggs tanks his attacks like nothing since he is more durable than Thanos and Mangog.

Lastly,
Which is harder to do, destroying a mountain of fluff or a small adamantium rock? Although large in size dead galaxies aren't very durable like adamantium or Juggernaut. This is not to lowball Odin's feat (since it was amazing still) but that needs to be taken into consideration when judging that feat against the durability of Juggs.

Originally posted by h1a8
We go by showings and not speculation. Odin has NO feats to suggest he can punch harder than 20x the force of Thor's mightiest slams. To suggest that Odin can even harm Juggs is disregarding Juggs feats. Also, it also suggests that Odin's fight with Thanos, Mangog, etc. are all PIS.

It's more than speculation really. Anyone who regularly reads (or has read) Thor, in addition to having an understanding of the way the Marvel Universe works will get this. Odin is a cosmic level entity. His feats have far surpassed that of anything Cain has ever done or could do. Forget Thor's blows. Odin is responsible for the power within Mjolnir itself. He's gone to blows with Galactus.. dispersed the essence of Annihilus in mere seconds. Juggs is powerful obviously, but he's nowhere near Odin's league.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly,
Which is harder to do, destroying a mountain of fluff or a small adamantium rock? Although large in size dead galaxies aren't very durable like adamantium or Juggernaut. This is not to lowball Odin's feat (since it was amazing still) but that needs to be taken into consideration when judging that feat against the durability of Juggs.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly,
Which is harder to do, destroying a mountain of fluff or a small adamantium rock? Although large in size dead galaxies aren't very durable like adamantium or Juggernaut.

hulk > odin

- destroyed mountains

- destroyed adamantium and uru with bare hands

- took it to juggernaut a few times

odin just destroyed dead galaxies and reignited stars by accident

So don't box me in a fence. Either Odin gets his galaxy busting power in this fight or he doesn't. If he does then Odin vs. Thanos, Mangog, etc. are all PIS since Juggs is more durable than them and shouldn't be supported by you in other threads.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Keep in mind Jake, that this is coming from a guy who clings to planet destroying like grim death... or is that only in the case of Thanos? Sometimes his hypocrisy is hard to keep track of.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
hulk > odin

- destroyed mountains

- destroyed adamantium and uru with bare hands

- took it to juggernaut a few times

odin just destroyed dead galaxies and reignited stars by accident

Juggernaut is beyond a planet. He's in a different tier altogether when it comes to durability. If you luckily are able to summon up enough power to harm him then he would heal instantly.

Originally posted by h1a8

Juggernaut is beyond a planet. He's in a different tier altogether when it comes to durability. If you luckily are able to summon up enough power to harm him then he would heal instantly.

The sh** you just said has been dis proven, Juggernaut got worked by Nimrod, and got knock to another state by Onslaught and was mumbling like a wine-o and this was done by a weaker version of Onslaught who in turn way below Classic Odin. Odin can generate enough power too f**k up Juggernaut up, this same being fights can destroy galaxies, reignite dead suns and make suns go supernova, and send shock waves through all reality as a side affect.

You have constantly show ignorance of characters, context of stories too the point you are making your look like a uneducated troll, that goes off by their imagination instead of reality and what has been proven on panel, which you ignore.

Originally posted by h1a8
On panel it said Thor used all of his might when he slammed down on Cain. The blow didn't even tickle him. So using common sense it would take more than 20x the force just to do a little damage to Juggs. Odin has no strength feats that show he can deliver punches with forces more than 20x that of Thor's mightiest slams. This is the crux of my argument. Everything else is irrelevant.

Lastly, IMO Odin's punches EQUALS Thor's mightiest slams. In other words, they come no where near 20x them at all.

Luckily Thor can charge Mjolnir to hit with a noticeably more explosive impact. Whatever, I'm done replying to you.

You aren't even acknowledging any evidence.

Originally posted by the Darkone
The sh** you just said has been dis proven, Juggernaut got worked by Nimrod, and got knock to another state by Onslaught and was mumbling like a wine-o and this was done by a weaker version of Onslaught who in turn way below Classic Odin. Odin can generate enough power too f**k up Juggernaut up, this same being fights can destroy galaxies, reignite dead suns and make suns go supernova, and send shock waves through all reality as a side affect.

You have constantly show ignorance of characters, context of stories too the point you are making your look like a uneducated troll, that goes off by their imagination instead of reality and what has been proven on panel, which you ignore.

Originally posted by Newjak
Most of those situations have things that make it weird, because there are generally very contradictory showings to suggest that Cain was either not functioning at full power at the time or there were circumstances surrounding it.

I think you are missing the point newjak, H1 is basically saying that all the power Odin has, he cant harm Juggernaut at all, where Odin is a full powered deity and Juggernaut gets a fraction from deity that doesn't mean he cant be hurt by somebody on higher food chain, and the logic he is using doesn't support him.

Originally posted by h1a8
So don't box me in a fence. Either Odin gets his galaxy busting power in this fight or he doesn't. If he does then Odin vs. Thanos, Mangog, etc. are all PIS since Juggs is more durable than them and shouldn't be supported by you in other threads.

Why is Juggernaut more durable than Mangog and Thanos? This question is directed at... smarter people than you BTW. Feel no need to answer since your answer won't be an answer but a bunch of lumped up shit.

Juggernaut's best far and away feat is taking the Godblast from a weakened Thor with his shield up. Balance out the high feats... feat... with low feats and you have Juggernaut screaming from flames, getting tore up by Onslaught, getting KO'ed by Nimrod, getting hurt by Prof Hulk, getting KO'ed by the backlash from Prof Hulk, and getting badly tore up by Thor without his shield. Etc.
Plus the Onslaught thing was from an Onslaught who got smashed by normal Hulk (could be a mental thing, but iirc it wasn't)

For such a comic "Fact" he sure as shit doesn't have the feats to put him above Thanos or Silver Age Mangog.

Originally posted by Newjak
Perhaps I do need to re-read it but I'm for certain the word reality was used quite a bit in that arc.

Well, I carefully read over the arc and he mentions the word reality when explaining his plan of collapsing the alternate time lines:
http://i40.tinypic.com/140b2qg.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/4e54p.jpg

I originally thought he was going to continue wreaking havoc, not destroy everything. Ufortunately the single issue that I originally got was missing that second scan (Re-downloaded the entire arc the second time).

For the record, based on the context and the time warps in the previous issue, he isn't referring to the entire physical Universe.

Originally posted by Newjak
I knew about Eternity being able to free himself that's why I didn't list it among the things Nightmare did in that arc cause it was pointless.

The point was he was very powerful and Juggernaut was able to attack him on his turf when Strange was powerless.

Yet you mentioned Nightmare being a threat to the Universe and so on when the only reason he wasn't up to one of his classic Fear Lord schemes was because Eternity gave him power over time.

And my point was that the reason Strange didn't beat him like he has over the years was because he learned a specific counter spell to turn the Eye of Agamatto against him. Most likely born out of having many encounters with him.

These are all very important points worth noting, things that you left out while suggesting Nightmare was operating at this uber powerful level.

Someone more cynical would assume you were being deceptive tbh.

Originally posted by Newjak
And the point wasn't that Strange thinks Juggernaut is more powerful then everyone, but when push came to shove he was willing to bring the aid of Cain which shows that Cain isn't some small time being.

The implication seemed to be there. Whatever, I'm cool with this stance. It goes without saying that he considered Juggernaut and the new magical spells he learned to be powerful.

Originally posted by Newjak
Strange was willing to bring him against a Nightmare at point where Nightmare was shown as seemingly being more powerful then depicted as normal.

You also have the showing where Cain was able to over power Dr. Strange as well, and punch through his magic. Which was in another comic I can't remember which one.

Do you have any evidence of this? Nightmare certainly had much bigger plans than usual and had prepared for Strange but his own power levels did not seem to indicate any increase from normal. He didn't even defeat sock mask Strange through power.

This is definitely news to me. Do you have an issue number at hand?

Originally posted by Newjak
The whole point of this is you you are trying to make claims of Cain's injuries without noticing the context behind a number of them.

Context? Please point out in which of those I'm missing context. I read all of those comics and at no time do I recall Juggernaut being weakened or else I'd have mentioned it.

I'm genuinely curious now because I certainly don't want to mislead anyone. If you have any actual information (I.e. not saying it's PIS because you don't like it) I'd like you to give me an issue number.

I mentioned Thor hurting Juggernaut in the scene where he removed his force field I think but that much is obvious.

Originally posted by Newjak
He screamed out in Pain against Nightmare who at the time wasn't exactly playing small time ball, and he showed no signs of injury during or after any of Nightmare's attacks.

Nightmare definitely hurt him. He didn't cripple him or anything but then again, I don't know why anyone would expect him to.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Context? Please point out in which of those I'm missing context. I read all of those comics and at no time do I recall Juggernaut being weakened or else I'd have mentioned it.

I'm genuinely curious now because I certainly don't want to mislead anyone. If you have any actual information (I.e. not saying it's PIS because you don't like it) I'd like you to give me an issue number.

I mentioned Thor hurting Juggernaut in the scene where he removed his force field I think but that much is obvious.

Nightmare definitely hurt him. He didn't cripple him or anything but then again, I don't know why anyone would expect him to.

I'm regarding things like Nightcrawler putting a torch in the eye of Cain and him screaming pain.

And perhaps context was only part of it. I should have also said extreme contradictory feats as well.

Considering Cain has walked out of infernos before while smiling it seems weird for a torch to the face to hurt him.

Storm's lightning hurting him yet in another issue Cain simply took and redirected it back at her.

Onslaught for one thing I think has been retconned to some degree. It was always wacky because for one the gem was never in Cain's chest in fact he threw it into orbit. Later in New Excalibur we find out the reason why Onslaught was after Cain to begin with because Xavier was Cyttorak's first pick to be the Juggernaut that day.

So there could have been some more things going on behind the scenes where Cyttorak may have been playing favorites and weakening Cain. Considering Onslaught only had the power of Xavier and Magneto it doesn't make much sense for that combo to hurt him.

Captain Universe was weird cause he supposedly beat him black and blue the first time but the next time they fight Cain is not holding his own but in instances looks like he was superior.

Nimrod takes Cain down by a nervous system attack, but in a depowered state Cain was burned to a crimson skeleton with his own power and he is still moving and talking.

The point is this, things that seemingly make Cain cry out in pain at times completely do not effect him at others.

Other things like magic and celestial tech can factor in to.

I've always thought there was a certain mental aspect to Cain's powers or a weird kind of mental block since Cain is human and likes keeping his human mind.

For one thing it makes sense that is mind would still respond sometimes to things that wouldn't hurt him but he cries out in pain as a reflex. I've seen people do that.

Also based on the recent things with Collosanaut, even if someone has the Juggernaut power they can still mentally filter it out. Look at Pitor he looks Jugger uped all of the time but he has been mentally trying to hold unto his humanity and thus he isn't operating at ful capacity of its power. Also Cyttorak has explicitly told Cain before the only thing limiting his use of the power is himself.

So its very possible that some of those things happened when Cain was not mentally allowing himself to actually focus and be the full Juggernaut.

Some of this is just theory but I believe that it is a fair and logical conclusion especially considering recent events. And should probably be cosndiered.

Also if you want the honest truth I think the Cain's biggest and most accurate showing of what he could be is 8th Day mode when he was fully focused. I never use it in a battle cause it's somewhat wishy washy, but I do think that is Cain unleashed.

A brief skim through tells that it's not that I'm missing context or information, it's just that you disagree with some showings and Juggernaut has fluctuated over the years.

The latter while understandable isn't as relevant to my point but that's cool. I'll read and reply more thoroughly later, I have to go now (Superbowl).

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
You raise a good point...

Why is Juggernaut more durable than Mangog and Thanos? This question is directed at... smarter people than you BTW. Feel no need to answer since your answer won't be an answer but a bunch of lumped up shit.

Juggernaut's best far and away feat is taking the Godblast from a weakened Thor with his shield up. Balance out the high feats... feat... with low feats and you have Juggernaut screaming from flames, getting tore up by Onslaught, getting KO'ed by Nimrod, getting hurt by Prof Hulk, getting KO'ed by the backlash from Prof Hulk, and getting badly tore up by Thor without his shield. Etc.
Plus the Onslaught thing was from an Onslaught who got smashed by normal Hulk (could be a mental thing, but iirc it wasn't)

For such a comic "Fact" he sure as shit doesn't have the feats to put him above Thanos or Silver Age Mangog.

Juggs has more appearances. But i go by high showings and not PIS low ones.
Classic Juggs is indestructible by physical forces, any showing against that is PIS.
The feat against the Godblast and Thor's slam verifies that. Also your math sucks since an average is to add up an entire characters history and divide it by the number of appearances. Those low feats wouldn't even dent the average 1 point.

Originally posted by the Darkone
The sh** you just said has been dis proven, Juggernaut got worked by Nimrod, and got knock to another state by Onslaught and was mumbling like a wine-o and this was done by a weaker version of Onslaught who in turn way below Classic Odin. Odin can generate enough power too f**k up Juggernaut up, this same being fights can destroy galaxies, reignite dead suns and make suns go supernova, and send shock waves through all reality as a side affect.

You have constantly show ignorance of characters, context of stories too the point you are making your look like a uneducated troll, that goes off by their imagination instead of reality and what has been proven on panel, which you ignore.

Low ball Juggs then high ball Odin. That seems fair.

Originally posted by h1a8
Juggs has more appearances. But i go by high showings and not PIS low ones.
Classic Juggs is indestructible by physical forces, any showing against that is PIS.

There's a reason I specifically stated that I wasn't asking you