Ulic Qel-Droma versus the Jedi Exile.

Originally posted by Advent
[B]1. You're blindly assuming that Jaden had the benefit of knowing Luke was on Korriban (which, as I've pointed out, you've yet to establish).

All we know is that Luke was, in fact, on Korriban. Does Jaden know that? It'd be meaningless guesswork as there's no proof whatsoever that he did or didn't.

2. You're also indirectly speaking for the character of Jaden. Are you Jaden Korr? Last time I checked, no.

For all we know - possessing the power of the scepter - he viewed Luke as an insignificant being who would cause no threat whatsoever.

Take, for example, the fact that Exar Kun had two separate occasions in which he could've permanently dispatched Sylvar (and done so with relative ease) Yet he opted not to citing he "had better things to do with (his) time".

Could it be possible that Jaden believed the scepter possessed such immense power that it could conquer any foe (not that it necessarily does) and therefore, thought Luke wouldn't have caused a problem? Why, yes, that certainly seems as a possible alternative to your assertion.

Perhaps, like Kun, he "had better things to do with (his) time", such as unlock the full capabilities of the scepter.

The point is, that there's no evidence suggesting he considered Luke a severe threat to his plans. Again, you assuming that he did begs for proof. Proof which you can't provide as that would require you to submit speculation rather than deducing a viable case.

Well... damn. For some reason, I didn't think of... like... any of that.

Originally posted by Gideon
Certainly. Though, let us be precise. You are mentioning the feats of one of the numerous Ancient Sith Lords, and I was under the assumption that this particular one was regarded as one of the very most powerful of the Sith Lords at that time. Essentially, this would be like me citing Luke Skywalker's feats or Kyp Durron's and dictating that this would automatically apply for the rest of the New Jedi Order. And, they performed their feats without the assistance of Sith arcana and technology. Much more impressive.

You did notice that this argument basically stated because I claimed that Sadow strikes me to be more impressive then Kreia and the Exile and that, logically, Kun who seems to have more force potential and all of Sadow's knowledge would also be more impressive than them - from there drawing the conclusion that somebody able to stalemate Kun might pretty much defeat the Exile in a duel ?

No one was denying or questioning the power of Marka Ragnos or Naga Sadow. I simply pointed out the truth: the most powerful feats attributed to the Ancient Sith are not without assistance. Compare that to the likes of Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron, Darth Sidious, and so forth... do the Ancient Sith (with the possible exception of Ragnos) compare?

Well, Escape. The point is that this "assistance" is also part of their own power to a certain extend. I mean...they didn't stumble across amulets (for example) but created them, making their "gimmicks" an extend of their own skill. This, in turn, makes is pretty useless to argue what they can or can't do without them - because we can't determine it anyway.

No one is "talking down" Sadow's Force powers. Yet the fact remains that he couldn't have performed the feat without his technological aid.

Going by what he did perform without technological aid I don't see how you can clearly limit his own force powers like that. Creating armies of tangible illusions, as far as I recall, is a feat that aside of Sadow only DE Luke (and Sidious ?) did perform.

All you saw? Excellent. I assume there is some incontrovertible proof that dictates as such? I'll be happy to concede the point, though again, the fact remains, even if it did -- he still couldn't have performed the feat without the ship.

So, what you're telling me is that there is no incontrovertible proof that the ship merely 'focused' Sadow's power and that it is purely up for debate?

If it's up for debate, Escape, then I don't see how you can claim that he needed his ship to perform the feat.

Likewise, Nai, if you're going to subscribe to this logic, then let's do it completely and without prejudice. Anakin Skywalker, henceforth, must truly be a God. After all, his 'personal power' is twice that of Sidious's, so it's not really a detraction that he can't focus it or augment it by himself? Are we to truly give him God status?

WTF ? I don't get how this has anything to do with the argument here.

Isn't likely? So, you have some means of evidence suggesting that it is possible that he could?

What ? Creating solar flares ? Other people (Kueller ? Brakiss ?) have been able to something like that. Destabilizing a star in a way that will lead to a supernova (notice...he didn't rip the core of a star off...that was Aleema using his ship) ? Might also be possible for a force user like him without aid.

As we've seen, Luke's knowledge concerning Ragnos is hardly conclusive. But again. No one denies his power.

Of course it isn't conclusive. On the other hand Luke had quite some time studying Sidious knowledge in DE which would most likely include some Sith history. At least he seems to have had a reason to think that Ragnos might be very hard to stop once resurrected.

Non-canon. It's essentially irrelevant. Furthermore, it wasn't enough to kill Kyle.

See Advent's posting.

And, if I also recall, Jacen fled with the scepter. Fled. Implying he knew, even with the uberstaff at his command, he didn't like his odds.

As you might recall that scepter had to drain power first before being used and Jaden had acquired it just seconds ago after almost all of his power already was used to call Ragnos spirit back from the grave. So he pretty much had a almost powerless scepter in his hand and considering it hadn't instantly killed Kyle, I don't see how he would have used it to any advantage against Luke. Especially if you consider that he most likely didn't have much of an idea how the artifact actually worked aside from projecting energy beams.

Are we discussing finesse or magnitude, Nai? In magnitude, Nihilus outclasses the scepter. In control? No, I'll agree. But, then again, Ragnos's scepter isn't the end all be end all.

Considering it's just a tool that Ragnos created it is a pretty powerful item. Once more: I was just arguing the idea that there is nothing to make Ragnos appear particulary powerful.

Using a technique of which there is "no defense" is a detraction? One could arguably conclude that this alone makes her personal drain stronger than Ragnos's scepter; or at least more refined. She removed the Force from these folks completely. His couldn't.

No. It just means that the Jedi at the time had no defence against a force drain attack. And I don't see why his sceptre should be the upper limit of Ragnos power...

Lol, Nai, must we be sarcastic and hostile? If you don't like me calling you out on your claims, do us all a favor and reinforce them. It's more or less a problem on your part than mine.

Oh, and, no one said Nihilus, Traya, or Sidious weren't special. Nihilus and Sidious especially. What I said was that the scepter's feats have been replicated by people, and in more than one way, it's been a better job.

You weren't calling me out on my claims. You were missing the entire purpose of this debate and the overall topic as well. Which is pretty apparent.

Then Allankles needs to re-examine the situation. Ragnos is very powerful, one of the best. Is he above Luke? Nope. Sidious? Nope. But he's top tier, you'd better believe it. It's just that, Nai, not all of us believe that the Ancient Sith are ubergods of the Force. I give them credit for having an assload of Sith knowledge and for their upper tiers being particularly robust. But the average Ancient Sith? Nothing impressive at all. And, as Manslayer suggests down at the bottom, I'm not thinking that their 'raw Force power' is anything special, either.

Once more: If you don't get what the debate is about you'd better off with stop talking. Either that or you might simply quit the endless "Why the ancient Sith are inferior to Luke and DE Sidious" rants which are - sorry to tell you - pretty boring. Especially when every second posting of yours is filled with them. That reminds me too much of Cato who demanded that Carthago has to be destroyed in every single meeting of the Roman Senate.

I'll concede the point. But only when you give me absolute proof.

Since you had no point here, considering what the original topic of the debate was, I don't care when you will concede it or if it's ever going to happen. Present me "absolute proof" that Luke is more powerful than Ragnos. You can't. Why ? Because "absolute proof" doesn't exist. If you want "absolute proof" you're pretty wrong here.

Once more: If you don't get what the debate is about you'd better off with stop talking. Either that or you might simply quit the endless "Why the ancient Sith are inferior to Luke and DE Sidious" rants which are - sorry to tell you - pretty boring. Especially when every second posting of yours is filled with them. That reminds me too much of Cato who demanded that Carthago has to be destroyed in every single meeting of the Roman Senate.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's more than a reasonable doubt for it...Luke is, after all, a high profile presence in the Force.

Yeah. The Grandmaster of the New Jedi Order is going to run around on the battlefield as a walking target instead of cloaking his present in the force. So that every kick ass Dark Jedi around can sense where he is and surprise him. Let me think of that. NO WAY.

Considering Jaden just cut down a woman in full possession of the scepter and its abilities, he'd be a complete fool

Since when did Jaden did defeat somebody in full poessession of the scepters abilities ? The only one who would reach that status would be Ragnos himself. But Ragnos just had an almost completely energy drained scepter at his disposal. And it's nice how Tavion did use the scepter to blast Korr away or collapse the ceiling on him. Oh wait. That didn't happen, did it ?

Sylvar is NOT the ultra powerful grandmaster of the Jedi Order. Luke is. The comparison can't be made.

As a matter of fact, Luke has been floored by attack seeming far less powerful. I don't really see him stopping a surprise attack with the scepter with any considerable ease. Ok. It wouldn't kill him and I can see him standing pretty fast again. Yet...why would Jaden (with or without the scepter, even if it was a unbeatable weapon) attack Luke Skywalker - who wasn't even presence when Korr disappeared in the DS ending ?

Again: this focuses on Jaden possibly being the stupidest Dark Lord ever. He, a newbie to the scepter, just defeated a Dark Jedi who had it for some time.
If he thinks the scepter=unlimited power? He's a fool

Wonder why you can't keep that "argument" free of strawmans, Lightsnake. Who did ever say that the scepter offers "unlimited power" especially considering the circumstances that have the scepter almost completely powerless when Korr picks it up ?

I assure you, Kun wouldn't decide he had 'better things to do' if he was facing somebody with Luke's power

Wow. And how does that have anything to do with Korr leaving the place when nobody was present. Really. You act as if he ran away because Luke appeared on the spot (which didn't happen) and apparently he was also not shitting his pants when Kyle, who did at least use a wall of light attack against Jerec partitially boosted by the power of the Valley of the Jedi, and thus seems to be quite powerful, did show up.

The alternate is that Jaden is the most arrogant, idiotic Dark Sider since Hethrir, really.
He knows what Luke is capable of, he knows how powerful he is, he knows he's the leader of the people he'll need to oppose to establish control of the galaxy.
To say Jaden is so deluded he doesn't consider Luke a threat seems...silly.
That Jaden hightailed it out of there, knowing the risk is a much more likely conclusion

Or he simply had no intention to actually wait there until Luke and all his students swarm the place. Really. What kind of bullshit is that, LS ? "Either pick my explanation or the strawman one I just made up for you which sounds rediculous." Unless you come up with proof that Jaden run away because he feared a mano a mano confrontation with Luke you might as well just quit talking. Because your assertions are unproven, based on strawmans and - on top of that - pretty damn illogical.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I object to this. Cato hurling that in at the end of a speech about agriculture or public policy is inherently awesome.

Senator: "I think that my cold is so bad I should go and see a doctor."
Cato: "And I think that Cathago should be destroyed !"
Senator: "Stop that. That is madness."
Cato: "Madness ?"
Leonidas: "THIS...IS...SPARTA !"
Cato: "Look at this. Hannibal...erm...Leonidas ante portas. I think that..."
Leonidas: "...SPAAAAARTAAAAAAAA..."
Cato: "...should be destroyed."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's more than a reasonable doubt for it...Luke is, after all, a high profile presence in the Force.

Yes, which means automatically any Force user who's just succumbed fully to the Dark Side should be able to detect him. I suppose Jaden should've known Kyle was approaching, which, as expected, you can't prove.

This would also be why Count Dooku should have realized Yoda had arrived in the Geonosis hanger, which he clearly didn't as he was surprised to see him there.

Considering Jaden just cut down a woman in full possession of the scepter and its abilities, he'd be a complete fool

Yet, when Kyle Katarn, who's certainly one of the most powerful Force users in the history, went up against the scepter he was knocked unconscious.

Prove that, in the hands of Tavion, it would've had the same effect.

Sylvar is NOT the ultra powerful grandmaster of the Jedi Order. Luke is. The comparison can't be made.

Irrelevant.

The point is that you have no idea what Jaden believed possible with the scepter, he could've viewed him as a virtual nobody in comparison and believed he had "better things to do with (his) time".

Again: this focuses on Jaden possibly being the stupidest Dark Lord ever. He, a newbie to the scepter, just defeated a Dark Jedi who had it for some time.
If he thinks the scepter=unlimited power? He's a fool

Your assertion would then include, in the hands of any Force user, the scepter itself would have no different effect. As such, anyone with Ragnos' weapon could've blasted Kyle Katarn to a state of unconsciousness.

Prove it.

We know that even the ancient Sith amulet blasts don't operate under that condition, as it fully depends on the wearer's "dark rage" in their hearts. Prove that Ragnos' scepter would work any differently.

I assure you, Kun wouldn't decide he had 'better things to do' if he was facing somebody with Luke's power

If he had just acquired an artifact which he may have believed was capable of tooling anyone in his possession? He just tossed around somebody who'd I'd argue was one of the top five most powerful Jedi of all time (and second only to Luke in his era) like a ragdoll.

The alternate is that Jaden is the most arrogant, idiotic Dark Sider since Hethrir, really.

No, it could simply mean that he

He knows what Luke is capable of, he knows how powerful he is,

He knew full well how powerful Kyle Katarn was. And how, exactly, would he know entirely what Luke was capable of? He had barely been training for more than a few months and, to my recollection, never saw Luke in action.

Time to prove up yet again.

he knows he's the leader of the people he'll need to oppose to establish control of the galaxy.

...Your point here would be what exactly? Should anyone in a possible position to eliminate a figurehead do it on the spot? Even if they don't believe they'd possess a threat? No.

He didn't feel the need to finish off Kyle, why exactly would he go after Luke? Of course, this is assuming that he even had knowledge of Luke's arrival, something unestablished thus far.

To say Jaden is so deluded he doesn't consider Luke a threat seems...silly.

And to say that he "ran off" without providing evidence that: a) he even sensed Luke's presence, b) the scepter would be equally as powerful in Tavion's possession as it would Jaden's, c) he believed the scepter, when he had it, would be incapable of defeating Luke doesn't seem...silly to you?

That Jaden hightailed it out of there, knowing the risk is a much more likely conclusion

I didn't exactly see where you established that Jaden knew Luke would be arriving as quickly as he did, which would virtually be essential for your argument.

Like Gideon's, your argument doesn't even have a leg to stand on until you prove up.

I've incurred the wrath of Advent, Nai, and Sith'ari 2.0. Have I done something to upset you all? Such... hostility...

You did notice that this argument basically stated because I claimed that Sadow strikes me to be more impressive then Kreia and the Exile and that, logically, Kun who seems to have more force potential and all of Sadow's knowledge would also be more impressive than them - from there drawing the conclusion that somebody able to stalemate Kun might pretty much defeat the Exile in a duel ?

I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion; you've made fairly convincing evidence that leads me to believe that Ulic would beat the Exile. But in your efforts to do so, you've (in my opinion) aggrandized the power of the Ancient Sith. You can call it a predisposition to attack such claims, you can call it fanboyism, the truth is that I really don't care anymore. This is a debate. If you have a problem with me addressing your reasoning rather than your point, don't bother posting, because I can assure you, it will continue to happen.

Well, Escape. The point is that this "assistance" is also part of their own power to a certain extend. I mean...they didn't stumble across amulets (for example) but created them, making their "gimmicks" an extend of their own skill. This, in turn, makes is pretty useless to argue what they can or can't do without them - because we can't determine it anyway.

Darth Sexy and I went round and round on this issue, multiple times. I see no real reason to construct these artifacts if -- indeed -- the Sith could perform the feats without them. Why make them at all? It's redundant. In fact, it's an unnecessary risk. What if they should be stolen or acquired by a rival Sith?

Going by what he did perform without technological aid I don't see how you can clearly limit his own force powers like that. Creating armies of tangible illusions, as far as I recall, is a feat that aside of Sadow only DE Luke (and Sidious ?) did perform.

I'm not denying Sadow's genius when it comes to alchemy or dark side artifacts. I'm not even denying his skills at creating illusions. But let's be fair here, are you suggesting that Sadow is on par with Luke or Sidious because of one feat? If I remember correctly, you used to oppose that line of thought. Otherwise, Nihilus is equal to or surpassing the vast majority of the Ancient Sith themselves. Brakiss and his master, Kueller, are on par with them as well because they can perform similar feats without assistance from Sith arcana.

You could very well open an unhealthy can of worms here.

If it's up for debate, Escape, then I don't see how you can claim that he needed his ship to perform the feat.

Because logic, in this case, seems to propose the question: if he could perform the technique without the amulet, why use it? Why be dependent on it? Why assume the risk?

WTF ? I don't get how this has anything to do with the argument here.

Because you've heralded Sadow's power even though nothing indicates that he could perform his greatest technique without the ship. Likewise, are we to assume that Anakin Skywalker is an uberpowerhouse -- indeed, he'd be the uberpowerhouse -- because his raw power is unquestioned, but his lack of technique and focus prevents him from accessing it, much like Sadow's ship seems to do with his.

What ? Creating solar flares ? Other people (Kueller ? Brakiss ?) have been able to something like that. Destabilizing a star in a way that will lead to a supernova (notice...he didn't rip the core of a star off...that was Aleema using his ship) ? Might also be possible for a force user like him without aid.

Might also be possible. Based on what? The fact that "lesser" Force users can do so? Is that necessarily true?

Of course it isn't conclusive. On the other hand Luke had quite some time studying Sidious knowledge in DE which would most likely include some Sith history. At least he seems to have had a reason to think that Ragnos might be very hard to stop once resurrected.

Perhaps the added power acquired by the scepter would have augmented Ragnos's power? Perhaps Luke was merely exacting the idealogy of "better safe than sorry"?

See Advent's posting.

I did. And she soundly kicked my ass, so I'll concede the point.

As you might recall that scepter had to drain power first before being used and Jaden had acquired it just seconds ago after almost all of his power already was used to call Ragnos spirit back from the grave. So he pretty much had a almost powerless scepter in his hand and considering it hadn't instantly killed Kyle, I don't see how he would have used it to any advantage against Luke. Especially if you consider that he most likely didn't have much of an idea how the artifact actually worked aside from projecting energy beams.

I've conceded this point as well because I can't effectively argue it. I'll leave it to Lightsnake.

Considering it's just a tool that Ragnos created it is a pretty powerful item. Once more: I was just arguing the idea that there is nothing to make Ragnos appear particulary powerful.

I'm not denying that it is a powerful item, Nai. But you're suggesting that it is somehow among the great feats. Nihilus's drain has less control but it is stronger than Ragnos's scepter. Traya exhibits greater control and arguably the same magnitude. Same for Sidious.

No. It just means that the Jedi at the time had no defence against a force drain attack. And I don't see why his sceptre should be the upper limit of Ragnos power...

No one is arguing Ragnos's power, Nai. No one. We're arguing the scepter's power. Nihilus, Traya, and Sidious outclass the scepter.

You weren't calling me out on my claims. You were missing the entire purpose of this debate and the overall topic as well. Which is pretty apparent.

You think so?

Once more: If you don't get what the debate is about you'd better off with stop talking. Either that or you might simply quit the endless "Why the ancient Sith are inferior to Luke and DE Sidious" rants which are - sorry to tell you - pretty boring.

Once more: if you don't like the fact that I'm not contesting your point, but rather your logic, you'd be better off by taking your own advice. Furthermore, the hostility is utter bullshit. I can see from the House signature and avatar that you're trying to be the good doctor. Hate to tell you, Nai, you're not Hugh Laurie or Dr. E-House and it's downright silly to pretend like you are. As for the "Ancient Sith are inferior to Luke and DE Sidious" who the hell brought that up? No one is questioning the power of Marka Ragnos. I made that clear. I even told Darth Sexy that he ranks up there with those guys. The thing about House is, even when he goes on arrogant rants and bash sessions, he typically sees the entire picture. Are Luke and Sidious ahead of the Ancient Sith (with the possible exception of Ragnos)? Yep. It's not even an issue. It's just understood.

So, your little rants every time I call you out are the only thing that's getting dull around here. Some patience would do you justice, Nai. One would think a twenty-something such as yourself could summon the maturity that the meak sixteen year old (me) manages to do.

Especially when every second lposting of yours is filled with
them. That reminds me too much of Cato who demanded that Carthago has to be destroyed in every single meeting of the Roman Senate.

Yes, Nai. This is all about some systematic plan to proclaim Ancient Sith inferiority! You've caught me. But, wait... we've already proven this isn't about the Ancient Sith being inferior, but rather, when it comes to raw power -- not as high as you'd like to think. In fact, that you bring it up at all might be a clue as to some sort of insecurity on the issue.

Since you had no point here, considering what the original topic of the debate was, I don't care when you will concede it or if it's ever going to happen. Present me "absolute proof" that Luke is more powerful than Ragnos. You can't. Why ? Because "absolute proof" doesn't exist. If you want "absolute proof" you're pretty wrong here.

Look who just went into a little mini-rant about "Ragnos's power!!1!" No one here is arguing it. Just you.

Originally posted by Advent
Yes, which means automatically any Force user who's just succumbed fully to the Dark Side should be able to detect him. I suppose Jaden should've known Kyle was approaching, which, as expected, you can't prove.

This would also be why Count Dooku should have realized Yoda had arrived in the Geonosis hanger, which he clearly didn't as he was surprised to see him there.

Like Gideon's, your argument doesn't even have a leg to stand on until you prove up.

Your turn, Advent. Prove up.

Escape and myself have argued to death, and ive pretty much conceded the whole argument. The ONLY logical reason that would give the ancient sith the benefit of the doubt concerning the amulets is the fact that they used them as multi purpose tools, not only to channel their abilities but to pass down history. Nai, you are wrong. In no way was Sadow able to perform any of his feats without the amulets, otherwise he wouldn't need them. Your point about Sadow possibly being able to tear the core out of the sun with his own abilities, is ridiculous.

Remind me again how your logic went in regards to the original topic Nai.

Ulic > The Exile because:-

Ulic = Kun + Sadows's Knowledge> Sadow and the ancient Sith> Kreia? 😛

I don't think you could come up with a congent argument as to how Warb Null and Ommin are on par or greater than Kreia, Sion and Nihilus, so you had to resort to this.

Good attempt it's lasted over 5 pages. And as far as a comparable constant goes, Kreia's comments (as you choose to interpret them) don't qualify. I hope you're are also aware that Kreia may well have been a Jedi (I think it's implied) when Ulic and Kun were around, effectively including the two in Kreia's quote.

Allankles, you lost this debate weeks ago. Ulic>>>Exile.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion; you've made fairly convincing evidence that leads me to believe that Ulic would beat the Exile. But in your efforts to do so, you've (in my opinion) aggrandized the power of the Ancient Sith. You can call it a predisposition to attack such claims, you can call it fanboyism, the truth is that I really don't care anymore. This is a debate. If you have a problem with me addressing your reasoning rather than your point, don't bother posting, because I can assure you, it will continue to happen.

You did neither adress my reasoning nor my point, which is the problem I have with you here. How did I aggrandize the power of the Ancient Sith ? I just handed out a statement by Kreia that says any ancient Sith would kick Kreia and the Exile across the place in combat. Was Kreia right ? I don't know. But I also don't see why somebody should claim his / her inferiority to people that she doesn't deem far superior for some kind of reason.

Darth Sexy and I went round and round on this issue, multiple times. I see no real reason to construct these artifacts if -- indeed -- the Sith could perform the feats without them. Why make them at all? It's redundant. In fact, it's an unnecessary risk. What if they should be stolen or acquired by a rival Sith?

So you don't see any real reason to construct cars because you can cross every distance those "tools" can travel on your own feet as well ? It would just take longer. Granted. But that could mean the Ancient Sith did simply come up with that stuff because it makes certain things easier for them. I'm pretty sure being able to use your own anger to create some nice energy blast using an amulet or force drain, blast, give people force abilities using a scepter charged with force energy is quite more efficient than doing the same using your own powers while having to focus on it. Especially when it comes to confrontations with other force user I'd consider that an extreme advantage.

Aside of that...since when does every kind of invention need a "reason", eh ? I certainly see no reason behind producing cigarettes - yet people apparently do it and sell that stuff. And why should it be a risk ? Obviously the Ancient Sith - at least the ones we see in the comics - are all equipped with amulets similar to that of Sadow and / or wear some sort of Sith talisman. Yet I'd like to see somebody stealing an amulet from the arm of a Sith Lord. How should that happen ? They carry those things around on their bodies the entire time. If you can steal one of those you could as well simply kill the possessor instead (in fact this would be the easier way).

I'm not denying Sadow's genius when it comes to alchemy or dark side artifacts. I'm not even denying his skills at creating illusions. But let's be fair here, are you suggesting that Sadow is on par with Luke or Sidious because of one feat? If I remember correctly, you used to oppose that line of thought.

Once more. Get rid of the straw mans or read my posts correctly. I said the notion that Sadow wasn't powerful in terms of personal ability is basically disproven by the fact that he performed a feat that only a very small amount of other - rather powerful - individuals could perform not to mention the stuff he created and not to mention the knowledge he apparently had (that turned Kun into a bona fide Sith Lord in some weeks / months of studying it).

Because logic, in this case, seems to propose the question: if he could perform the technique without the amulet, why use it? Why be dependent on it? Why assume the risk?

I wonder why I say "ship" and you say "amulet". Aside of that: The ship is a weapon. A weapon is a tool. A tool is constructed to be used. Notice how he uses the ship (with pathetic ease) to destabilize the star and later (when escaping from the republic ships) the weapon systems of the ship are disabled (stated by one of the Massassi) which means that Sadow triggered the solar flares that destroyed some of the Republic's vehicles on his own without assistance of the ship.

So I really don't see how he is dependant on the ship when he can cause some nice destruction on his own without his aid. And I also don't see where you (once more) are seeing a "risk" here.

Because you've heralded Sadow's power even though nothing indicates that he could perform his greatest technique without the ship.

a) He could create solar flares without the ship.
b) I'd call creating armies out of nothing (tangible, fighting illusions !) on three different planets simultaneously pretty impressive - even in comparison to "destabilize the core of a star" (however it was done). And that was also done without technical aid.

Likewise, are we to assume that Anakin Skywalker is an uberpowerhouse -- indeed, he'd be the uberpowerhouse -- because his raw power is unquestioned, but his lack of technique and focus prevents him from accessing it, much like Sadow's ship seems to do with his.

Sadow's ship prevents him from using all his raw power ? In a same way that owning a car prevents you from walking 20 kilometres ? Once more: The comparison is stupid, Escape.

Might also be possible. Based on what? The fact that "lesser" Force users can do so? Is that necessarily true?

No. Based on the fact that Sadow did it himself without his ship (creating solar flares). And destabilize a star ? I don't know how much energy you would need to do so in comparison to creating solar flares or let pop up thousands of illusional warriors out of nothing - but to state that he simply can't do it based on "No, I don't think so" isn't an argument exactly.

Perhaps the added power acquired by the scepter would have augmented Ragnos's power? Perhaps Luke was merely exacting the idealogy of "better safe than sorry"?

Or perhaps Luke remembered how the force spirit of a person that was more likely less powerful than Ragnos and did possess less Dark Side knowledge (Exar Kun) toasted one of Luke's students, took over another, almost killed all of Luke's students at once with a single force choke and of course almost killed Luke himself. Considering this I guess Luke apparently had some reason to assume that Ragnos, reborn in his original shape and equipped with some nice Sith Gimmicks, could very well cause some nice amount of damage.

I'm not denying that it is a powerful item, Nai. But you're suggesting that it is somehow among the great feats. Nihilus's drain has less control but it is stronger than Ragnos's scepter. Traya exhibits greater control and arguably the same magnitude. Same for Sidious.

Once more, Escape. If you don't want to waste time with following a debate, I don't see how participating in it makes much sense for you. I brought up the scepter to show that Ragnos can't have been completely powerless if he was capable of coming up with stuff like that. Did somebody here say that this scepter drain is godlike and makes Ragnos invincible ? No ? Then why you act as if I did ?

No one is arguing Ragnos's power, Nai. No one. We're arguing the scepter's power. Nihilus, Traya, and Sidious outclass the scepter.

No. We are arguing nothing. You try to argue something which hasn't anything to do with the intention of my original argument. The quantity of the power doesn't matter - the fact that the scepter is a powerful item is what matters. Want to question that ? No ? I again wonder why you are talking then.

You think so?

No. I know that because you've just proven it once again, Escape.

Once more: if you don't like the fact that I'm not contesting your point, but rather your logic, you'd be better off by taking your own advice.

Once more: I don't know what's going on in your head. The logic that I used here (whatever you might have seen, I don't know) was the following: If we look at the abilities of Ragnos scepter, we must conclude that it is a rather powerful item. Because that powerful item was owned (and most likely even created) by Marka Ragnos, the guy can't be completely powerless - as Allankles pretty much claimed when saying that Ragnos strength is just "assumed".

Now you can contest that logic. I'd really like to see how you do that.

Furthermore, the hostility is utter bullshit. I can see from the House signature and avatar that you're trying to be the good doctor. Hate to tell you, Nai, you're not Hugh Laurie or Dr. E-House and it's downright silly to pretend like you are.

Wow. Just wow Escape. First: You ignore the entire debate, ignore the general topic, ignore what I have typed down and apparently ignore the intention why I've typed it down - just to come up with some pointless rants that, sorry, have nothing to do with the debate at all. You might not get it, but I, personally, find that rather annoying for some reason. Second: You keep repeating your stuff after I tried quite clearly to explain to you why your original intrusion into this debate didn't make much sense at all. Once more you ignore that and keep coming back at me with the same stuff that didn't have much to do with my posts. One might figure out why I find that even more annoying.

And now this extraordinary unfunny "attack". How long are you posting here, Escape ? I'm quite sure that some people can tell you I was a cynical, insulting, arrogant ******* already, before I saw the first episode of House. So it could be that there is just a coincidental relationship in terms of character between House and me, which - of course - makes me like the character quite much because I've forgotten "egocentric" in the list of bad attributes above.

As for the "Ancient Sith are inferior to Luke and DE Sidious" who the hell brought that up? No one is questioning the power of Marka Ragnos. I made that clear. I even told Darth Sexy that he ranks up there with those guys. The thing about House is, even when he goes on arrogant rants and bash sessions, he typically sees the entire picture. Are Luke and Sidious ahead of the Ancient Sith (with the possible exception of Ragnos)? Yep. It's not even an issue. It's just understood.

Yeah. Who brought that point up again ? You don't know the answer ? CLICK ME
"Compare that to the likes of Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron, Darth Sidious, and so forth... do the Ancient Sith (with the possible exception of Ragnos) compare?"

I could swear that it is your username next to that post there and I could also swear that Luke and Sidious had precisely nothing to do with this debate, before - as it always happens when you mention the name of an Ancient Sith and one of those two in a posting, regardless of circumstances - Gideon steps in and comes back with the "but they aren't as good as Luke or Sidious" stuff. Hooray. Notice how it never was a question if Ragnos or Sadow are better than Luke or Sidious. The question was if Ragnos or Sadow (+ Kun + Ulic) are more powerful than Kreia or the Exile - with regards to Kreia's quote about the Ancient Sith.

Yes, Nai. This is all about some systematic plan to proclaim Ancient Sith inferiority! You've caught me. But, wait... we've already proven this isn't about the Ancient Sith being inferior, but rather, when it comes to raw power -- not as high as you'd like to think. In fact, that you bring it up at all might be a clue as to some sort of insecurity on the issue.

I can only suggest once more that you go and read the debate and then come back at me. Can it be that I was talking about overall skill of Sadow (not all ancients) in comparison to Kreia and the Exile (not every force user) and Sadow's knowledge passed down to Kun (again special case) and not about his raw power ? It appears to me that might be the case. So might I ask once more what the hell you are talking about ?

Look who just went into a little mini-rant about "Ragnos's power!!1!" No one here is arguing it. Just you.

And again you demonstrated your absolute inability to read what I type. It must be a hard job. Notice how I was just calling you out on your demand for "absolute proof". I don't see how your comment matches the quote above it but well - I could say the same about your entire post missing the topic of the debate by miles. So I shouldn't wonder, should I ?

So you don't see any real reason to construct cars because you can cross every distance those "tools" can travel on your own feet as well ? It would just take longer. Granted. But that could mean the Ancient Sith did simply come up with that stuff because it makes certain things easier for them. I'm pretty sure being able to use your own anger to create some nice energy blast using an amulet or force drain, blast, give people force abilities using a scepter charged with force energy is quite more efficient than doing the same using your own powers while having to focus on it. Especially when it comes to confrontations with other force user I'd consider that an extreme advantage.

Aside of that...since when does every kind of invention need a "reason", eh ? I certainly see no reason behind producing cigarettes - yet people apparently do it and sell that stuff. And why should it be a risk ? Obviously the Ancient Sith - at least the ones we see in the comics - are all equipped with amulets similar to that of Sadow and / or wear some sort of Sith talisman. Yet I'd like to see somebody stealing an amulet from the arm of a Sith Lord. How should that happen ? They carry those things around on their bodies the entire time. If you can steal one of those you could as well simply kill the possessor instead (in fact this would be the easier way).

Once more. Get rid of the straw mans or read my posts correctly. I said the notion that Sadow wasn't powerful in terms of personal ability is basically disproven by the fact that he performed a feat that only a very small amount of other - rather powerful - individuals could perform not to mention the stuff he created and not to mention the knowledge he apparently had (that turned Kun into a bona fide Sith Lord in some weeks / months of studying it).

I wonder why I say "ship" and you say "amulet". Aside of that: The ship is a weapon. A weapon is a tool. A tool is constructed to be used. Notice how he uses the ship (with pathetic ease) to destabilize the star and later (when escaping from the republic ships) the weapon systems of the ship are disabled (stated by one of the Massassi) which means that Sadow triggered the solar flares that destroyed some of the Republic's vehicles on his own without assistance of the ship.

So I really don't see how he is dependant on the ship when he can cause some nice destruction on his own without his aid. And I also don't see where you (once more) are seeing a "risk" here.

a) He could create solar flares without the ship.
b) I'd call creating armies out of nothing (tangible, fighting illusions !) on three different planets simultaneously pretty impressive - even in comparison to "destabilize the core of a star" (however it was done). And that was also done without technical aid.

Sadow's ship prevents him from using all his raw power ? In a same way that owning a car prevents you from walking 20 kilometres ? Once more: The comparison is stupid, Escape.

No. Based on the fact that Sadow did it himself without his ship (creating solar flares). And destabilize a star ? I don't know how much energy you would need to do so in comparison to creating solar flares or let pop up thousands of illusional warriors out of nothing - but to state that he simply can't do it based on "No, I don't think so" isn't an argument exactly.

Or perhaps Luke remembered how the force spirit of a person that was more likely less powerful than Ragnos and did possess less Dark Side knowledge (Exar Kun) toasted one of Luke's students, took over another, almost killed all of Luke's students at once with a single force choke and of course almost killed Luke himself. Considering this I guess Luke apparently had some reason to assume that Ragnos, reborn in his original shape and equipped with some nice Sith Gimmicks, could very well cause some nice amount of damage.

No. We are arguing nothing. You try to argue something which hasn't anything to do with the intention of my original argument. The quantity of the power doesn't matter - the fact that the scepter is a powerful item is what matters. Want to question that ? No ? I again wonder why you are talking then.

Once more: I don't know what's going on in your head. The logic that I used here (whatever you might have seen, I don't know) was the following: If we look at the abilities of Ragnos scepter, we must conclude that it is a rather powerful item. Because that powerful item was owned (and most likely even created) by Marka Ragnos, the guy can't be completely powerless - as Allankles pretty much claimed when saying that Ragnos strength is just "assumed".

Now you can contest that logic. I'd really like to see how you do that. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ulic>>>Exile.

Not at all. The only arguement for Ulic worth a damn is that he stalemated Kun briefly before their ascent as Dark Lords. Beyond this, there's nothing to remotely suggest Ulic is above the Exile. We don't need to get into a debate on how stalemating your one trully formidable opponent, is the same as the Exile defeating (not merely stalemating) three formidable opponents.

Exile>Ulic (plus all Kotor comic Jedi, including Kun as a Jedi before his fall). The Exile has accomplished more impressive combat feats and has more experience.

ALlankles, your arguments have been defeated for months, yet you just can't shut up, you can't admit defeat. None of anything you say makes a damn, so I suggest you stop posting until you learn to debate.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ALlankles, your arguments have been defeated for months, yet you just can't shut up, you can't admit defeat. None of anything you say makes a damn, so I suggest you stop posting until you learn to debate.

That advice should apply to you.

Unless you can give an argument that extends beyond mere character preference, as to how Ulic (with less impressive combat accomplishements) is above the Exile, I'd strongly suggest you gulp down a tonic of shut-your-trap.

You did neither adress my reasoning nor my point, which is the problem I have with you here. How did I aggrandize the power of the Ancient Sith ? I just handed out a statement by Kreia that says any ancient Sith would kick Kreia and the Exile across the place in combat. Was Kreia right ? I don't know. But I also don't see why somebody should claim his / her inferiority to people that she doesn't deem far superior for some kind of reason.

Oh, please, Nai. You've had multiple problems with me on numerous occasions, and given the demeanor with which you continue to address me with makes me wonder if I didn't penetrate that psuedo-Housian facade a while back. You aggrandize the power of the Ancient Sith constantly, and much how you credit me with "endless" rants about how Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious reign proudly over the Ancient Sith (which they do), one could also credit you with an endless stream of rants proclaiming the Sith's dominance.

Now, regarding Kreia's quote, we've been through this. She is a remarkably intelligent and well informed historian. Yet, where I'm confused, is how we must even insinuate for a second that her word must be taken as the gospel. She is one source -- who, for all her knowledge -- was not present at that time. Likewise, if this is the case, we must credit legitimacy to everything spoken by the authors of The New Essential Chronology -- as it is drafted by an entire team of historians equipped with resources well beyond those of Traya's own.

Her statements are supportive and nature and are not conclusive. Once again (and I'm sure I'll be repeating this for days to come), the capabilities of Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos are not in question. But when you even suggest that, by association, the rest of the Ancient Sith are "godly", we have a problem.

So you don't see any real reason to construct cars because you can cross every distance those "tools" can travel on your own feet as well ? It would just take longer. Granted. But that could mean the Ancient Sith did simply come up with that stuff because it makes certain things easier for them. I'm pretty sure being able to use your own anger to create some nice energy blast using an amulet or force drain, blast, give people force abilities using a scepter charged with force energy is quite more efficient than doing the same using your own powers while having to focus on it. Especially when it comes to confrontations with other force user I'd consider that an extreme advantage.

Excellent, so you have proof that Naga Sadow can generate solar flares and such feats -- and on the same scale -- as the feats he performed with assistance from his ship? Or that Exar Kun can do the same with his amulet blasts? You seem to forget the fact that the genius of these Sith Lords is not in question: but their raw power -- in effect how strong they are without their arcana and technology -- is.

Aside of that...since when does every kind of invention need a "reason", eh ? I certainly see no reason behind producing cigarettes - yet people apparently do it and sell that stuff.

You're comparing cigarettes to Ancient Sith arcana? How legitimate are we to take this comparison? One is an addictive health hazard and the other is a device apparently designed to enhance, augment, or direct latent Force energy. There is a reason for cigarettes, though not a particularly wise one. Cigarettes are mass produced for profit by the tobacco companies, manipulating the addictive nature of the thing itself to gain money. Typically, yes, inventions do have reasons for existence, Nai. Otherwise, we wouldn't need and/or desire them for anything.

And why should it be a risk ? Obviously the Ancient Sith - at least the ones we see in the comics - are all equipped with amulets similar to that of Sadow and / or wear some sort of Sith talisman. Yet I'd like to see somebody stealing an amulet from the arm of a Sith Lord. How should that happen ? They carry those things around on their bodies the entire time. If you can steal one of those you could as well simply kill the possessor instead (in fact this would be the easier way).

Bingo. Another risk: death. Should one rival Sith desire another Sith's artifacts, you increase your chances of a struggle you very well might not win.

Once more. Get rid of the straw mans or read my posts correctly. I said the notion that Sadow wasn't powerful in terms of personal ability is basically disproven by the fact that he performed a feat that only a very small amount of other - rather powerful - individuals could perform not to mention the stuff he created and not to mention the knowledge he apparently had (that turned Kun into a bona fide Sith Lord in some weeks / months of studying it).

Knowledge =/= power, Nai. Yoda has had over eight hundred years to study the Force, yet he didn't effortlessly dismantle Dooku (who's had only eighty), nor could he overcome Sidious (who's had less than Dooku). Unless you're suggesting that Sidious and Dooku, at that point, eclipsed Yoda in Force knowledge. Never mind the fact that Sadow's or any Ancient Sith's knowledge is not in question, much as you'd like to make the issue about knowledge.

I wonder why I say "ship" and you say "amulet".

A mistake, Nai. We fallible people make them.

Aside of that: The ship is a weapon. A weapon is a tool. A tool is constructed to be used. Notice how he uses the ship (with pathetic ease) to destabilize the star and later (when escaping from the republic ships) the weapon systems of the ship are disabled (stated by one of the Massassi) which means that Sadow triggered the solar flares that destroyed some of the Republic's vehicles on his own without assistance of the ship.

On the same scale performed with the ship? So far, all you've managed to do is -- with deduction, I might add -- suggest that Sadow might naturally be on par with Brakiss or Kueller. Not exactly god-status.

So I really don't see how he is dependant on the ship when he can cause some nice destruction on his own without his aid. And I also don't see where you (once more) are seeing a "risk" here.

No one suggested that he is reliant on the ship for everything. We said that he needed the ship to perform a specific (his strongest, I might add) feat.

a) He could create solar flares without the ship.
b) I'd call creating armies out of nothing (tangible, fighting illusions !) on three different planets simultaneously pretty impressive - even in comparison to "destabilize the core of a star" (however it was done). And that was also done without technical aid.

Yes, and Lumiya could create Force Phantoms that were on par with their models. She's also like what? Three-fourths machine? She considers herself to be particularly weak in the Force, but adept at creating illusions, and she has nothing compared to the knowledge Sadow has. Once again: proficiency in one technique doesn't suggest godhood or anything resembling it. But, once again, no one is disputing Sadow's power -- though at this point, some of your logic seems particularly unstable.

Sadow's ship prevents him from using all his raw power ? In a same way that owning a car prevents you from walking 20 kilometres ? Once more: The comparison is stupid, Escape.

Excuse me. The statement was supposed to be "unlike Sadow's ship". You're making a big deal about the power of the Ancient Sith, when you've yet to prove they can perform their ubertechniques without assistance. We must conclude that even if Sadow possesses the "raw power" to destabilize a star's core or whatnot, he lacks the skill to utilize it without aid. Ergo, we must -- by association -- place Anakin Skywalker on an even higher level because his raw power is well in excess of Sadow's, he just lacks the skill to perform his uber techniques on his own.

No. Based on the fact that Sadow did it himself without his ship (creating solar flares). And destabilize a star ? I don't know how much energy you would need to do so in comparison to creating solar flares or let pop up thousands of illusional warriors out of nothing - but to state that he simply can't do it based on "No, I don't think so" isn't an argument exactly.

Deduction is again, with me. You've yet to successfully refute why Sadow would rely on his ship if he could perform the technique itself, which means -- at best (for you) -- we have a stalemate. In which case, neither party wins, in which case I consider it a victory for me, personally, because I don't hold myself in nearly the high regard you have for yourself. Stalemating you would be an honor.

Or perhaps Luke remembered how the force spirit of a person that was more likely less powerful than Ragnos and did possess less Dark Side knowledge (Exar Kun) toasted one of Luke's students, took over another, almost killed all of Luke's students at once with a single force choke and of course almost killed Luke himself.

Yes, but you'd have to prove that Luke knew or thought that Kyp Durron was "likely weaker" than Ragnos or that Kun had "less Dark Side knowledge" than Ragnos as well.

Considering this I guess Luke apparently had some reason to assume that Ragnos, reborn in his original shape and equipped with some nice Sith Gimmicks, could very well cause some nice amount of damage.

Oh, hell, Nai. Lol, nobody's disputing that a reborn Ragnos would be a pain in the ass or that he would cause "major damage". But, sadly, Emperor Palpatine's purge destroyed -- what? In excess of 90% of all Jedi and Force-related repositories of knowledge? You'd also have to prove that Sidious taught Luke about Ragnos during his submission. Otherwise? Logic concludes that Luke likely -- addressed with a being he had no idea about -- and the curiosity that these deranged cultists would specifically base their idealogy around Ragnos and not some other Sith (thus leading to the conclusion that Ragnos is a major Sith badass, which he was), wanted to be safe than sorry.

Once more, Escape. If you don't want to waste time with following a debate, I don't see how participating in it makes much sense for you. I brought up the scepter to show that Ragnos can't have been completely powerless if he was capable of coming up with stuff like that. Did somebody here say that this scepter drain is godlike and makes Ragnos invincible ? No ? Then why you act as if I did ?

I disagree with your logic. Yes, I believed your constant referencing to the scepter and such aggrandized its power, thus insinuating that it is "godlike".

No. We are arguing nothing. You try to argue something which hasn't anything to do with the intention of my original argument. The quantity of the power doesn't matter - the fact that the scepter is a powerful item is what matters. Want to question that ? No ? I again wonder why you are talking then.

Because though the scepter is "powerful" it's not as potent as you've made it out to be. Thus. The. Problem.

No. I know that because you've just proven it once again, Escape.

Well, Nai, I could go back and nail you with the same accusation. So, let's try to avoid accusations of "missing the point" and argue it. If you don't want to discuss it, no one's stopping you. It's kinda like that time you accused me of making a thread about Sidious when it had nothing to do with him. You land all the blame on me, yet, all the while continuing to debate me. It's a very obtuse sign of human nature and -- if it were my intent -- you'd be furthering it along, like a puppet at my beck and call.

Man. Maybe I should put on the hood and rant about my "designs!"

Once more: I don't know what's going on in your head. The logic that I used here (whatever you might have seen, I don't know) was the following: If we look at the abilities of Ragnos scepter, we must conclude that it is a rather powerful item. Because that powerful item was owned (and most likely even created) by Marka Ragnos, the guy can't be completely powerless - as Allankles pretty much claimed when saying that Ragnos strength is just "assumed".

That's true. And (again), not in contest. You're once again making an issue about the point. It's not about the point but the reasoning. Using this line of logic, Ragnos still isn't an uberpowerful Sith Lord. Tavion "owned" the scepter. Is she anything above an averge Dark Jedi by association?

Doubt it.

Now you can contest that logic. I'd really like to see how you do that

Hmm? Oh. You mean Ragnos being uberpowerful? Nope. I think he is. That he's somehow very powerful 'cause he owned the scepter? I disagreed with it and, yes, I just contested it.