Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Possibly Tulak Hord, Darth Andeddu, but Ragnos is "It", in terms of uber powerful ancient sith. Thus far, only Luke and Sidious are above him..
I can't agree completely. When you get to the likes of Luke, Sidious, Yoda, Kyp, Jacen, Revan, Bane, Nihilus, and so forth... you need feats to say where you are among them. I can say Ragnos is up there with these guys, but it's useless to say he's second only to Luke and Sidious.
Originally posted by Gideon
I can't agree completely. When you get to the likes of Luke, Sidious, Yoda, Kyp, Jacen, Revan, Bane, Nihilus, and so forth... you need feats to say where you are among them. I can say Ragnos is up there with these guys, but it's useless to say he's second only to Luke and Sidious.
I know, I'm a fanboy. But I especially like the "Frightening grasp of the dark side". Since the ancient sith were responsible for what 90%+ dark side techniques, and Ragnos was the top dog.. Why not..
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I know, I'm a fanboy. But I especially like the "Frightening grasp of the dark side". Since the ancient sith were responsible for what 90%+ dark side techniques, and Ragnos was the top dog.. Why not..
Oh, I'm not saying he couldn't be second only to just Luke and Sidious. You just can't conclude that he is.
Edit: One day, I hope you'll be able to convey how you can be a fanboy of an individual who hasn't really given us a reason to be a fanboy of him.
Originally posted by Manslayer
Right we saw how naga and kressh fought, sadow throws a brick and kressh couldnt block it.
Which is entirely irrelevant, the obvious force behind which Sadow launched the brick must've been tremendous given it put Ludo on his ass when the ancient Sith are renown for their immense physical strength.
The fact that he "couldn't block it" means jack shit, should we hold a post-DE Luke accountable because (in what was virtually the same position) he got knocked upside the head by a small cylinder? No.
Don't be ridiculous, Manslayer.
Originally posted by Gideon
Non-canon. It's essentially irrelevant. Furthermore, it wasn't enough to kill Kyle.
No, the relevance is perfectly applicable as the power the scepter possessed at that time still would've been enough to produce the same effect in a different situation (given it's not shown to siphon any more energy). Simply because the ending was non-canon doesn't necessarily mean it should be disregarded, Gideon.
What would be "irrelevant" is the fact that it "wasn't enough to kill Kyle", as that had nothing to do with Nai's point. Which was that it was capable of tossing a powerful Force user around like a ragdoll.
And, if I also recall, Jacen (it's apparent what's on your mind, Gideon) fled with the scepter. Fled. Implying he knew, even with the uberstaff at his command, he didn't like his odds.
And, to my (perfect) recollection, after discharging the energy of the scepter onto Kyle, he then proceeded to collapse the roof onto him when he was unconscious. Collapse. Which, at the very least, would've weighed several tons.
I'm not sure what "odds" you're referring to exactly, Kyle posed no threat whatsoever at that point.
Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, I'm not saying he couldn't be second only to just Luke and Sidious. You just can't conclude that he is.Edit: One day, I hope you'll be able to convey how you can be a fanboy of an individual who hasn't really given us a reason to be a fanboy of him.
Sam reason why I love Revan. It's the unknowns that intrigue us. Hell, I am really getting into Plagueis.
No, the relevance is perfectly applicable as the power the scepter possessed at that time still would've been enough to produce the same effect in a different situation (given it's not shown to siphon any more energy). Simply because the ending was non-canon doesn't necessarily mean it should be disregarded, Gideon.
I'll concede the point then.
What would be "irrelevant" is the fact that it "wasn't enough to kill Kyle", as that had nothing to do with Nai's point. Which was that it was capable of tossing a powerful Force user around like a ragdoll.
I'll concede the point then.
I'm not sure what "odds" you're referring to exactly, Kyle posed no threat whatsoever at that point.
The "odds" as in Luke Skywalker and the rest of the Jedi present, the only true threat to a Jedi-cum-fledgling-Sith-Lord. Nai's right. The scepter did have enough power to put Kyle on his ass. Why didn't Jacen stick around and do the same to Luke?
Originally posted by Gideon
I'll concede the point then.
You're damn right you will.
I'll concede the point then.
You're damn right you will.
The "odds" as in Luke Skywalker and the rest of the Jedi present, the only true threat to a Jedi-cum-fledgling-Sith-Lord. Nai's right. The scepter did have enough power to put Kyle on his ass. Why didn't Jacen stick around and do the same to Luke?
Probably because Jacen was a toddler. Jaden, on the other hand, likely had no indication Luke would be coming so soon; even if he did, it's rather faulty assumption to state that it implies he couldn't (or at the least, felt he couldn't) do the same simply based on the fact that he left.
It's certainly a possibility he didn't want to take his chances, but one could also assume he merely wanted to unlock more knowledge regarding his newly acquired artifact or something similar and believed he could take down Luke whenever he felt necessary. We have no idea.
Excuse the constant butchering of Jaden's name. It's 1:30 am in the morning. 🙁
Your damn right you will.
I have a "damn right you will"? Where the hell would I keep that... oh. You must mean 'you're'.
Your damn right you will.
I have a "damn right you will"? Where the hell would I keep that... oh. You must mean 'you're'.
Jaden, on the other hand, likely had no indication Luke would be coming so soon; even if he did, it's rather faulty assumption to state that it implies he couldn't (or at the least, felt he couldn't) do the same simply based on the fact that he left.It's certainly a possibility he didn't want to take his chances, but one could also assume he merely wanted to unlock more knowledge regarding his newly acquired artifact or something similar and believed he could take down Luke whenever he felt necessary. We have no idea.
You think so? I suppose you're right again. Though, I must say that the little bastard in question -- Jaden -- was hellbent on everyone "getting out of his way". Since he knows full well that Luke and the Jedi will be all over him like shit on velcro, it would be fairly stupid of Jaden to leave Luke and company alive if he could have taken them out.
So, either Jacen's a complete and utter idiot (doubt it) or the 'possibility' that he didn't want to take his chances is a fairly good one.
I have a "damn right you will"? Where the hell would I keep that... oh.
Yes, it's right next to my god-dammit-I-cannot-believe-I-misspelled-that.
You must mean 'you're'.
No, I quite clearly meant 'your'.
You think so?
I know so.
I suppose you're right again. Though, I must say that the little bastard in question -- Jaden -- was hellbent on everyone "getting out of his way". Since he knows full well that Luke and the Jedi will be all over him like shit on velcro, it would be fairly stupid of Jaden to leave Luke and company alive if he could have taken them out.
1. He was willing to destroy anyone in his line of sight, perhaps. I didn't exactly see where you established that Jaden knew Luke would be arriving as quickly as he did, which would virtually be essential for your argument.
2. Hardly. If you include that he had nearly no idea of the scepter's potential abilities (other than the ability to unleash destructive beams of energy), one could say that he believed it would've been more important to learn of its full capabilities.
It doesn't exactly mean he couldn't kill Luke then and there, simply that he didn't feel the need to. Could it be Luke Skywalker wasn't as much of a threat as you'd like to believe?
So, either Jacen's a complete and utter idiot (doubt it) or the 'possibility' that he didn't want to take his chances is a fairly good one.
I didn't exactly see where you established that Jaden knew Luke would be arriving as quickly as he did, which would virtually be essential for your argument.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't know Escape. The scepter gives the force to non force sensitives, and drains temples/planets. IF you ask me, this whole "giving the force" idea is pure bullshit. No offense to Ragnos, his sceper, or DE Sidious.
Yeah, weird isn't it? Makes you wonder why Sidious just didn't boost his own or some such. Or why Tavion didn't do the same to herself. People need to make some logical reason why the big bad guy doesn't do things like this...
Yes, it's right next to my god-dammit-I-cannot-believe-I-misspelled-that.
Advent, as we speak, it's 2:30 am. By the time I summon the effort to finish this post, it's probably going to be even later. I'm not in top form; even if I were, it wouldn't really make a terrible difference, would it? Try to summon some patience for me, I'm not equipped to debate you on my best day, let alone this particular time.
No, I quite clearly meant 'your'.
Was it your intention to be wrong? This is gramatically incorrect unless I'm missing some major grammar lessons. 'Your' is a possessive pronoun. Your sentence would only work if you meant that I somehow possessed 'damn right you will'. Since 'damn right you will' is a phrase and something that can't naturally be possessed (though it can be copyrighted, but I don't even have that) -- your statement is incorrect.
'You're', on the other hand, is a contraction for 'you are'. It would work in this situation, as you told me 'you are damn right you will (concede the point)'.
1. He was willing to destroy anyone in his line of sight, perhaps. I didn't exactly see where you established that Jaden knew Luke would be arriving as quickly as he did, which would virtually be essential for your argument.
So, what you're telling me is that Jaden was only willing to destroy the opposition that were within the same room? By all accounts, Jaden is a gifted Force user of sound judgment and intellect; are we to assume that his recent submission to the dark side has clouded his judgment so deeply? It seems to be a recurring theme that, though dark siders are nowhere near as wise as Jedi, they are much more shrewd and calculating. You telling me that Jaden is only willing to kill people "in his line of sight" is tantamount to telling me that -- as a calculating dark Jedi that he has now become -- he would willfully pass up an opportunity to eliminate what may be his only real threat simply because that 'real threat' is not standing in front of him.
I personally find that a ridiculous, ridiculous notion.
2. Hardly. If you include that he had nearly no idea of the scepter's potential abilities (other than the ability to unleash destructive beams of energy), one could say that he believed it would've been more important to learn of its full capabilities.
According to Nai (which you have seemed to agree with), the scepter can "knock powerful Force users around like ragdolls". Jaden, a gifted Force user, is in possession of that scepter. Luke Skywalker is the only real threat to whatever Jaden has planned, and he is in the general area, yet Jaden is unwilling to stick around for a fight. That his newly acquired Star Destroyer flees the system makes it clear that he has no intention of pushing the odds.
Personally? Were I a megalomaniacal dark sider? I'd consider the destruction of my greatest foe -- assuming I possessed the power to beat him already -- a deeper priority than discovering the secrets of my scepter.
It doesn't exactly mean he couldn't kill Luke then and there, simply that he didn't feel the need to.
He was willing to kill Kyle Katarn, his one time mentor, because Kyle stood in Jaden's way. What do we know from that? Jaden is not, somehow, a god, otherwise Kyle's opposition would be irrelevant. Yet they dueled, and from the looks of the cutscene, Kyle sure as hell didn't lose until the staff was brought into play again. Meaning Jaden isn't immortal or invincible. So, you're telling me that he "felt the need" to eliminate a mentor-figure who is, actually, weaker than Skywalker because he's in Jaden's way, but somehow, not Skywalker himself?
Could it be Luke Skywalker wasn't as much of a threat as you'd like to believe?
No, Advent, it seems to be that Ragnos's scepter isn't as powerful as you'd like to believe.
1. You're blindly assuming that Jaden had the benefit of knowing Luke was on Korriban (which, as I've pointed out, you've yet to establish).
All we know is that Luke was, in fact, on Korriban. Does Jaden know that? It'd be meaningless guesswork as there's no proof whatsoever that he did or didn't.
2. You're also indirectly speaking for the character of Jaden. Are you Jaden Korr? Last time I checked, no.
For all we know - possessing the power of the scepter - he viewed Luke as an insignificant being who would cause no threat whatsoever.
Take, for example, the fact that Exar Kun had two separate occasions in which he could've permanently dispatched Sylvar (and done so with relative ease) Yet he opted not to citing he "had better things to do with (his) time".
Could it be possible that Jaden believed the scepter possessed such immense power that it could conquer any foe (not that it necessarily does) and therefore, thought Luke wouldn't have caused a problem? Why, yes, that certainly seems as a possible alternative to your assertion.
Perhaps, like Kun, he "had better things to do with (his) time", such as unlock the full capabilities of the scepter.
The point is, that there's no evidence suggesting he considered Luke a severe threat to his plans. Again, you assuming that he did begs for proof. Proof which you can't provide as that would require you to submit speculation rather than deducing a viable case.
Yes, Luke is extremely powerful at that point, but you'd have to prove that: a) Jaden believed the scepter wouldn't be enough to stop him, and b) Jaden viewed him as a large enough threat to waste his time on.
I'll be waiting.
Was it your intention to be wrong?
Yes. You seem to be under the impression that I was criticizing you by writing this,
Originally posted by Advent
Yes, it's right next to my god-dammit-I-cannot-believe-I-misspelled-that.
I wasn't. I was referring to my incorrect usage of 'your', not your incorrect reference to 'Jaden'.
This is gramatically incorrect
...grammatically. 😛
So, what you're telling me is that Jaden was only willing to destroy the opposition that were within the same room?
Exactly. It's entirely possibly to suggest that he wouldn't have killed or attempted to otherwise, at that point. If you believe the opposite, then it's simple: show me the proof.
By all accounts, Jaden is a gifted Force user of sound judgment and intellect; are we to assume that his recent submission to the dark side has clouded his judgment so deeply?
So, we assume that he automatically becomes a "shrewd and calculating" Dark Jedi based on the fact certain others (who are, in fact, not Jaden) have and that he may have hinted at being capable of making good decisions (I'll remind you that Anakin also has shown he could do the same)?
Good to know.
It seems to be a recurring theme that, though dark siders are nowhere near as wise as Jedi, they are much more shrewd and calculating.
I hardly see this pattern occur in neophyte Jedi Knights, who haven't been training more than a few months at best. You're missing the fact that Jaden's state of mind cannot be determined from others'.
I personally find that a ridiculous, ridiculous notion.
I personally find the fact that you've yet to even prove up on providing evidence that Jaden knew Luke would be arriving as quickly as he did (which is essential for your argument, otherwise it holds no water), and then stating that you're somehow right a ridiculous, ridiculous notion.
and he is in the general area, yet Jaden is unwilling to stick around for a fight.
Originally posted by Advent
I didn't exactly see where you established that Jaden knew Luke would be arriving as quickly as he did, which would virtually be essential for your argument.
To claim that he was "unwilling [to fight]" when you quite clearly are incapable of establishing that he even knew a battle would arise is purely ludicrous.
That his newly acquired Star Destroyer flees the system makes it clear that he has no intention of pushing the odds.
Or it's an indication that he didn't believe Luke and Kyle would be a hazard to him.
Personally? Were I a megalomaniacal dark sider? I'd consider the destruction of my greatest foe -- assuming I possessed the power to beat him already -- a deeper priority than discovering the secrets of my scepter.
You're somehow concluding that this "greatest foe" was much of a danger, at all, in Jaden's mind.
Meaning Jaden isn't immortal or invincible.
I don't recall suggesting otherwise.
So, you're telling me that he "felt the need" to eliminate a mentor-figure who is, actually, weaker than Skywalker because he's in Jaden's way, but somehow, not Skywalker himself?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Was Luke Skywalker in front of him? No. Was Kyle Katarn? Yes.
I didn't manage to see Luke confront Jaden, only Kyle. Likewise with the two guards in front of Ragnos' tomb. Korr seemingly had no problem until they denied him access, in which case he utterly demolished them. Why would he go out of his way to kill Luke?
For your assertion to be correct, he would've had to believe him to be a threat. You can't prove that, ergo I'm right by default as I'm not arguing that he did or didn't conclusively (merely pointing out the fact it could be argued both ways).
No, Advent, it seems to be that Ragnos's scepter isn't as powerful as you'd like to believe.
No, Gideon, apparently you don't understand your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on until you prove up.