Ulic Qel-Droma versus the Jedi Exile.

Originally posted by Advent

That would only be correct if we chose to ignore the statement in the Darkside Sourcebook, which makes it clear that the bout between Ulic and Kun could have lasted quite a while before any victor would arise.

"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upperhand. Their battle might have gone on for hours [...]" (Darkside Sourcebook, Ch. 5, p. 76)

It doesn't even state that Kun would be able to win, so it's completely ridiculous to say that all it proved was he could battle Kun for a short while "and nothing more".

I'd easily say from those sentences alone, that Ulic was nigh completely on par with Kun in terms of dueling (prior to creating his double bladed lightsaber, however). [/B]

Not ignore it... entirely, but it is refutable, given how brief its description and depiction is in the actual narrative i.e. the comics. Besides that Kun's skill level is not really definable, given the lack of top quality opposition he faced. Don't mention his master or Odan Uur (sp?) I know all about them, and they were certainly nowhere near top quality fighters, certainly not when compared to Kreia or Sion.

Originally posted by Allankles
Not ignore it... entirely, but it is refutable

Hardly.

Do elaborate though, considering there's nothing to "refute" when the statement is not ambiguous nor does anything in the source material itself trump it.

given how brief its description and depiction is in the actual narrative i.e. the comics.[/b]

The length of their battle in the comics means exactly squat, as it's plainly stated that "they're battle might have gone on for hours" in another canonical source. Had it not been for the interruption of Ragnos, they likely would've dueled much, much longer (as its said), which proves that Ulic could go toe-to-toe with Kun [and possibly best him] in an extensive duel.

It certainly counters the assertion that "Ulic was [only] good enough to stand up to Kun in a brief exchange and nothing more".

Besides that Kun's skill level is not really definable, given the lack of top quality opposition he faced.

I'm honestly not sure what this has to do with anything, Allankles. Your post strongly implied that Kun was, in actuality, better than Ulic was, which obviously wasn't the case as several sources claim they were evenly matched (and would be for some time if the duel continued).

I'm essentially saying that, at that point in time, Ulic and Kun were virtually on par. And of course, that Ulic could've lasted longer (and possibly won), which should have been apparent without reading any additional sources other than DLotS.

Don't mention his master or Odan Uur (sp?) I know all about them, and they were certainly nowhere near top quality fighters, certainly not when compared to Kreia or Sion.

What in the blue hell are you talking about, Allankles? This is completely irrelevant to my points. I'm not here to argue Kun's or Ulic's skill level in comparison to the Exile's.

Moreover, why would I even put Odan's name into this when Exar hadn't even faced him until he mastered Sadow's knowledge left on Yavin? He clearly grew in power at that point. Which the same thing applies for the second confrontation with Vodo, he had already created his double bladed lightsaber and unique style by that point (which was stated to be an "improvement"😉.

Originally posted by Allankles
I take the Exile in this.

The reasons:

The Exile has beaten better opposition overall.

Who is this better opposition? The Exile has faced the following:

Sion: The Exile only defeated Sion through a mind game concerning Kreia. Without this disadvantage Sion would have won. Ulic has no such disadvantage for the Exile to exploit.

Nihilus: Nihilus has never been shown to be especially skilled in lightsaber combat. Nihilus lost because he was weakened before the fight TWICE and was triple-teamed.

Kreia: It was shown that Kreia loved the Exile more than anyone else in the galaxy. Why would she want to kill the Exile? Also note that Kreia's "big power" technique is Force Drain, which doesn't appear to work on the Exile. If it did the Exile would have lost that match to a Kreia willing to kill her.

Atris: Atris was a historian and has never been demonstrated to be a good fighter. She was on the Council, yes, but so was Coleman Trebor. Not exactly an impressive win.

Bottom Line: All of the Exile's victory's came from either fighting weakened opponents, fighting opponents that did not want to kill her, or winning through mind-games. Ulic would have none of the disadvantage's that have given the Exile any of her impressive kills.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Exile is at the very least is a master swordsman if not an outstandingly exceptional one. Her ability to learn her opponents lightsbaer techniques and force forms very quickly after brief observation makes her well equipped to take down powerful opponnents in one - on - one situations. She canonically knows at least three lightsaber forms to Ulic's zero (unknown).

This is ridiculous. Claiming that Ulic, the second most powerful person in his era didn't know at least one lightsaber form scream's ignorance on your part.

We know that he stalemated Exar, AFTER Exar was directly stated by Vodo to have COMPLETED his lightsaber training. Ulic is a pimp with the sword. The Exile on the otherhand took several hours to learn a forr; as stated by Vrook, to a "rough" level.

Bottom Line: The Exile's ability to learn lightsaber techniques is useless in a one-on-one lightsaber fight as she cannot learn it before the fight ends.

Originally posted by Allankles
And before anyone tries to make an uneducated rebuttal towards this comment think about this.... Just about every distinguished Jedi that lived to see past their 25th birthday is a master swordsman, the lightsaber is their primary weapon for some 20 odd years at least, they are all at least master swordsmen. From Luminara Undulu to Sora Bulq to Ulic and Malak.

Yet there are those who stand above all others in their time, including other Masters. Yoda and Mace were far above the rest of their time; Bane stood out above the rest in his. Exar and Ulic were the same way for their's.

Originally posted by Allankles
The question is always (as it is in this case) whether they are exceptional enough to distinguish themselves from their peers. Ulic was quite easily among the best of his time but nothing about what he accomplished puts him over the Exile.

Exar is capable of outright destroying basically anyone in the Exile's time, yet Ulic appears capable of stalemating him in lightsaber combat. By the same logic Ulic would defeat anyone in the Exile times aswell.

Originally posted by Allankles
Ulic's biggest combat victory was defeating Warb Null a dark sider nowhere on the level of the Sith Lords in Kotor.

Any proof for this statement?

Originally posted by Allankles
He also cut down the powerful King Ommin, but to be fare to Ommin he was a half zombie barely able to stand without a supporting exoskeleton.

As the bodies pile up...

Originally posted by Allankles
He later faced Kun in a brief encounter but the incident only proved that Ulic was good enough to stand up to Kun in a brief exchange and nothing more. Beyond those feats Ulic has done nothing of exceptional note.

Advent has already proven you wrong on this point. I might also add that Ulic defeated Mandalore, Cay Qul-Droma, and Satal Keto. There's three impressive feats you glossed over. Looks like you don't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Exile meanwhile aside from beating a more powerful, non paralyzed version of Ommin in Kreia, has stood up to a Sion powered by Malachor 5 and defeated an academy worth of Sith many of whom could siphon force energy from their attackers.

1. Where the hell do you get the idea that Ommin and Kreia are basically that same? I could also state that Kreia was crippled by her love for the Exile far worse than Ommin's phisical limitation's restricted him.

2. As was previously stated, the Exile only defeated Sion through a mind game. Sion was superior in strength-of-arms, which is what is most important in a contest against an opponent she has never met before.

3. She killed a bunch of relative weaklings. Whoopie...not. Slyvar, who was MUCH weaker than Ulic was taking out 3 or 4 of Sadow's enhanced Massassi at once.

I think it's quite clear that Ulic wins this.

Bottom Line: The Exile's ability to learn lightsaber techniques is useless in a one-on-one lightsaber fight as she cannot learn it before the fight ends.

Wow, i've never read so much stupid shit.. Thanks Allankles.

Allankles told me to tell you "you're welcome", as he's currently unavailable writing more stupid shit.

Thank you Advent.

Originally posted by Advent
Hardly.

Do elaborate though, considering there's nothing to "refute" when the statement is not ambiguous nor does anything in the source material itself trump it.

I already did. The narrative never depicts, describes or implies that the fight lasted hours. Any "canonical" source to the contrary is refutable by its lack of relation to the actual narrative : in this case the comics literally painting a vastly different picture than the source book.

In other words the lack of evidence in the narration makes the description of the source book appear less credible and more precisely less relevant (than might have been the case without the comics).

Originally posted by Advent
The length of their battle in the comics means exactly squat, as it's plainly stated that [...].

Already addressed above. So what value is the narrative? The narrative takes presedence over all other sources because it is the only place these characters exist. The narrative begets the source books and visual guides not virce versa.

Originally posted by Advent
I'm honestly not sure what this has to do with anything, Allankles. Your post strongly implied that Kun was, in actuality, better than Ulic was, which obviously wasn't the case as several sources claim they were evenly matched (and would be for some time if the duel continued).

Sorry, the statememt carried a bit of history with it. You know.... trying to squash recurring counterarguments before they rear their empty heads. The whole point was to make a case from a different angle, by evaluating Kun's skill level based on evidence.

Originally posted by Advent
Moreover, why would I even put Odan's name into this when Exar hadn't even faced him until he mastered Sadow's knowledge left on Yavin? He clearly grew in power at that point. Which the same thing applies for the second confrontation with Vodo, he had already created his double bladed lightsaber and unique style by that point (which was stated to be an "improvement"😉.

Not arguing his power level, just questioning the value of those feats in determining Kun's skill level in combat. The point being Vodo and Odan weren't much of a challenge, either because of Kun's power or because of their limited abilities. Either way it doesn't prove much about Kun, and questions the value of the feat to Ulic compared to the Exile's feats.

Whereas Ulic never beat a trully powerful opponent (Ommin's fragility made him an extremely vulnerable opponent so he doesn't count),The Exile beat at least two, if not three very powerful opponents.

You are 100% incorrect, as usual Allankles. There are sources that COMPLEMENT other sources, such as Advent's source that describes the fight between Ulic and Exar Kun. It is not contradictory to anything, and it is 100% canon. Before posting again, I suggest you read the canon policies, as you have shown absolutely no understanding of them.

Firstly, perhaps I should show you the entire quote, as I believe you're misinterpreting it (which you're not necessarily at fault for).

The quote, in its entirety is:

"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upperhand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith Lords, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos." (Darkside Sourcebook, Ch. 5, p. 76)

In other words,

Originally posted by Advent
Had it not been for the interruption of Ragnos, they likely would've dueled much, much longer (as its said), which proves that Ulic could go toe-to-toe with Kun [and possibly best him] in an extensive duel.

It certainly counters the assertion that "Ulic was [only] good enough to stand up to Kun in a brief exchange and nothing more".

The Darkside Sourcebook isn't stating that they're battle did, in fact, "go on for hours", but rather that it could have (if Ragnos never appeared).

Which would still be contrary to what your initial post implied, as Ulic was quite clearly on par with Kun in regards to dueling.

That would also mean everything else I stated was absolutely correct, and that the statement still holds water given the DSSB is not attempting to claim something that didn't happen actually happened.

Secondly, for the last two points of your post, they're relevancy concerning my argument is none, ergo you can address them with others.

Originally posted by Advent
Firstly, perhaps I should show you the entire quote, as I believe you're misinterpreting it (which you're not necessarily at fault for).

The quote, in its entirety is:

"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upperhand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith Lords, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos." (Darkside Sourcebook, Ch. 5, p. 76)

In other words,

The Darkside Sourcebook isn't stating that they're battle did, in fact, "go on for hours", but rather that it could have (if Ragnos never appeared).

Which would still be contrary to what your initial post implied, as Ulic was quite clearly on par with Kun in regards to dueling.

That would also mean everything else I stated was absolutely correct, and that the statement still holds water given the DSSB is not attempting to claim something that didn't happen actually happened.

Secondly, for the last two points of your post, they're relevancy concerning my argument is none, ergo you can address them with others.

Thanks for clearing that up, I thought we'd be having an argument over the credibility of both sources.

And though the quote suggests Ulic was on the same level it doesn't negate my earlier point which is that Ulic only did briefly engage with Kun and nothing more. Take my comment how you will, but their encounter was brief and nothing else. By that evidence my comment still holds water as it doesn't contradict the simple facts: the fight merely proved Ulic could hang with Kun in a breif exchange regardless of what the source book implies.

You're apparently not understanding. The DSSB states that they could have fought for HOURS and it would have been a stalemate. So you can call this a brief encounter, but it is a testament to his saber abilities. Ulic is no doubt one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the SW universe, and there's absolutely nothing that suggests the Exile could even last a few minutes with him, without getting wtfpwned.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Who is this better opposition? The Exile has faced the following:

Hold on, Hold on. I agree that Ulic wins, but lets get something straight here:

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract Sion: The Exile only defeated Sion through a mind game concerning Kreia. Without this disadvantage Sion would have won. Ulic has no such disadvantage for the Exile to exploit.[/B]

Incorrect. The Exile beat Sion through a combination of mind games AND literally beating him 4 times in their match. Remember that you will only erode his will after you battled and defeated him 3 times. Meaning that the first 3 fights is Sion basically fighting at his full strength.

I doubt Sion is so weak that he can only be defeated because of Exile's rants about Kreia. A show of strength must also be applied to kill Sion.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract Kreia: It was shown that Kreia loved the Exile more than anyone else in the galaxy. Why would she want to kill the Exile? Also note that Kreia's "big power" technique is Force Drain, which doesn't appear to work on the Exile. If it did the Exile would have lost that match to a Kreia willing to kill her.[/B]

You would have to show evidence of this. Kreia supposedly throwing the fight because of her love for the Exile contradicts all the stuff Kreia intended for the Exile and the things she said to the Exile on that final battle in Malachor.

Here's some quotes taken from Kreia on that battle:

"Yes, always, from the moment you awoke, I have used you. I have used you so that you might become strong, stronger than I."

"The Apprentice must kill the Master. If you do not, I will kill you. If I do not, then all you have achieved will be as nothing, as empty, and as violent as Malachor itself."

"If you do not kill me, I shall end you. Strike me down, end this."

Kreia intended very much to kill the Exile if Exile doesnt have what it takes to kill her. And there's no doubt Kreia loves the Exile, but its clear that what is most important for Kreia is for Exile to become strong, very strong to the point that she can beat the old witch. It might even be argued that thats the reason why Kreia loved her in the first place.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're apparently not understanding. The DSSB states that they could have fought for HOURS and it would have been a stalemate. So you can call this a brief encounter, but it is a testament to his saber abilities. Ulic is no doubt one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the SW universe, and there's absolutely nothing that suggests the Exile could even last a few minutes with him, without getting wtfpwned.

Yeah! Where's this evidence of Ulic's superioirty? I would say the Exile has more than enough tools to take down the likes of Ulic Qel Droma. I would also say Ulic is among the better duelists in SW (in a long list of over 20 names) but to call him one of the greatest is a bit of a stretch given the lack of evidence.

At least we know the Exile has the skills to fight 3 lightsabers at once; can hold off an opponent that's virtually physically invulnerable; knows at least three lightsber forms canonically (regardless of gameplay); and can learn jedi techniques after brief observations.

All we know about Ulic is that he can beat tomato cans like Warb Null; cut down a half rotting dark sider and hold his own brielfy with the one opponent he faced that was trully formidable.

Originally posted by Allankles
Yeah! Where's this evidence of Ulic's superioirty? I would say the Exile has more than enough tools to take down the likes of Ulic Qel Droma. I would also say Ulic is among the better duelists in SW (in a long list of over 20 names) but to call him one of the greatest is a bit of a stretch given the lack of evidence.

All we know about Ulic is that he can beat tomato cans like Warb Null; cut down a half rotting dark sider and hold his own brielfy with the one opponent he faced that was trully formidable.

Apparently given your repeated ignorance, that is all YOU know.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
There is no lack of evidence. He was Kun's equal and he held of Sylvar without the use of the force. That alone EASILY puts him above the exile. Not to mention the burden of proof is on YOU because nothing has ever been stated about the Exile's saber abilities.

He was Kun's equal? Then why was he the APPRENTICE? And why are non of his victories as impressive as the Exile's? And what has Sylvar done to make that feat so impressive? If anything it reflects poorly on Sylvar. Because any remotely strong force senstive should have enough power and skill to take down a non-force user in a lightsaber match. Otherwise, you're no better than a skilled non-force sensitive which appears to be the case with Sylvar.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wonderful. I come at you with logic, you come at me with inadmissable gameplay mechanics.

I see a problem with definitions. Gameplay mechanic: randomly generated weapons and gear. Canon gameplay: Kreia's three ligtsabers on Malachor, breathe technique learned on Nar Shadda and three default lightsaber forms irrespective of the character classes etc etc. When gameplay is a constant part of the narrative, like a lightsaber technique (that allows you to use the Jedi weapon regardless of class), it is "canon".

Originally posted by Allankles
He was Kun's equal? Then why was he the APPRENTICE? And why are non of his victories as impressive as the Exile's? And what has Sylvar done to make that feat so impressive? If anything it reflects poorly on Sylvar. Because any remotely strong force senstive should have enough power and skill to take down a non-force user in a lightsaber match. Otherwise, you're no better than a skilled non-force sensitive which appears to be the case with Sylvar.

I see a problem with definitions. Gameplay mechanic: randomly generated weapons and gear. Canon gameplay: Kreia's three ligtsabers on Malachor, breathe technique learned on Nar Shadda and three default lightsaber forms irrespective of the character classes etc etc. When gameplay is a [B]constant part of the narrative, like a lightsaber technique (that allows you to use the Jedi weapon regardless of class), it is "canon". [/B]

of which only one strikes at a time at the speed of a sea turtle.

If he is using game mechanics to further his point, I can use game mechanics to destroy his point.

Allankles, are you going to respond to my post?