Ulic Qel-Droma versus the Jedi Exile.

Still can't come up with a counterargument worth a bucket of dirt, Saxy.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He was his apprentice because Kun was superior with the force. Yet another flawed argument by the great Allankles.

Therefore making him inferior, not an equal - just like any other apprentice. Apparently the point of this simple argument flew over your head. The subjective perceptions of their combat levels are irrelevant next to Ulic's undeniable condition of inferiority .

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
especially since behind of every victory of the Exile's, there was some sort of circumstance. Nice job downplaying though. Not to mention you still have no proof other than gameplay mechanics, that the Exile is anywhere near Ulic's level.

In case you weren't aware the Exile had to hold off Sion before breaking his will, she didn't just talk him down she had to put the doubt in his mind by continually bettering him in combat - no circumstance there except oh... the Exile was just a better fighter.

Traya was willing to kill and destroy the Exile if she didn't have the ability to defeat her i.e. she didn't hold back, nor is there any suggestion that she was holding back.

The only people that promote that theory seem to be operating off of fan fiction plots, because their theories aren't based on any canon evidence. On the contrary, the canon sources do their best to clarify that Kreia never held back, via Kreia's very own words.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
His victories are more impressive than the Exiles

Care to explain to me how Warb Null and decrepit half Zombie Ommin are anywhere close to being on par with Sion and Kreia? The evidence seems to be against your ridiculous claims.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wrong. The lightsaber techniques are non canon, because it is 100% gameplay depending on the class, so you lose. Defeating Kreia's 3 lightsabers is impressive? Wow, I didn't know you have to be a force god to block 3 lightsabers, of which only one strikes at a time at the speed of a sea turtle.

Apparently you missed the part where I mentioned that the lightsaber techniques were a constant part of the narrative and as such form part of the canon.

Notice how in the narrative the Exile can discuss the lightsaber techniques he knows with Kreia (this is part of the narrative). Notice how also that I never mentioned any specific lightsaber forms, but that the Exile knew at least three lightsaber forms regardless of the class.

Notice further how I also mentioned that the lightsaber forms were the only means for the Exile to use lightsabers in Kotor 2 and as such form a part of the narrative that allows you to progress in the game.

Lastly, your comments on the Kreia's 3 lightsaber highlight your lack of comprehension. The details of the gameplay i.e. animation, speed etc are non-canon (don't reflect true Jedi combat) however the presence of the three lightsabers are canon and a part of the narrative.

And it's damn difficult to fight against three kinetically controlled lightsabers, consider the lack of restrictions on the angles of their strikes. If you're going to argue be sensible and try not to come off like some kind of biased fanboy.

Glentract the main points of your argument were addressed by someone else.

Your points were already defeated Allankles, but as usual, you come back for more like the ignorant child you are.

Great counterarguments as usual Saxy, and as usual you've been found wanting in debating. Face facts: I'm your e-master.

If you could debate, this would be possible. I've already responded to your posts. You've responded with irrelevant N-canon garbage.

Originally posted by Allankles
Therefore making him inferior, not an equal - just like any other apprentice. Apparently the point of this simple argument flew over your head. The subjective perceptions of their combat levels are irrelevant next to Ulic's undeniable condition of inferiority .

Urm. For being such an addict to the original narrative you are ignoring it pretty well. The omniscient narrator states during that duel that neither Kun nor Ulic can claim an advantage over the other. Which pretty much means that they are equal, at least in terms of lightsaber combat.

In case you weren't aware the Exile had to hold off Sion before breaking his will, she didn't just talk him down she had to put the doubt in his mind by continually bettering him in combat - no circumstance there except oh... the Exile was just a better fighter.

So ESB Luke was superior to ESB Vader because managing to hold him off instead of getting WTFpwned in seconds ? Ulic without force powers is still superior to an enraged Jedi (Sylvar) because he managed to hold her off ? Nice interpretation. Aside from not making any sense.

Traya was willing to kill and destroy the Exile if she didn't have the ability to defeat her i.e. she didn't hold back, nor is there any suggestion that she was holding back.

Did you actually look at what you're writing yourself ? So Kreia was willing to destroy the Exile IF the Exile wasn't able to defeat her meaning she didn't want to destroy the Exile at any cost, meaning she was holding back ? Not that it even matters because the Exile is immune to Kreias most powerful force attack which keeps Kreia from "going all out" anyway...

Care to explain to me how Warb Null and decrepit half Zombie Ommin are anywhere close to being on par with Sion and Kreia? The evidence seems to be against your ridiculous claims.

Let me see. Warb Null was a guy possessed by an Ancient Sith (those guys Kreia deemed to be so uber in combat, that herself would look like a child compared to them) and was wearing a full suit of armor enchanced via Sith Alchemy. Aside from being obviously able to take it up with two Jedi at once easily in lightsaber combat. And Ommin ? The guy who floored 5 Jedi with a single Dark Side attack, owned Arca with another one, and had battle meditation strong enough that even Nomi Sunrider wasn't capable of countering it ? That aside of the fact that he was possessing Adas holocron which is one of the single most wealthy sources of Sith knowledge there is ? Good god. Those people must suck. Indeed.

Apparently you missed the part where I mentioned that the lightsaber techniques were a constant part of the narrative and as such form part of the canon.

Apparently you missed the part where the lightsaber forms are dependant on the players choise of the character class and hence don't appear in game every time.

Notice how in the narrative the Exile can discuss the lightsaber techniques he knows with Kreia (this is part of the narrative). Notice how also that I never mentioned any specific lightsaber forms, but that the Exile knew at least three lightsaber forms regardless of the class.

And that matters how exactly ?

Notice further how I also mentioned that the lightsaber forms were the only means for the Exile to use lightsabers in Kotor 2 and as such form a part of the narrative that allows you to progress in the game.

I bet I could play through the game without ever equipping a lightsaber to the character. So you're wrong here. Of course the Exile did utilize a lightsaber but to be quite honest - you can easily play through the game without switching your form once and that hardly says anything about the mastery of the Exile in the lightsaber department.

Lastly, your comments on the Kreia's 3 lightsaber highlight your lack of comprehension. The details of the gameplay i.e. animation, speed etc are non-canon (don't reflect true Jedi combat) however the presence of the three lightsabers are canon and a part of the narrative.

And it's damn difficult to fight against three kinetically controlled lightsabers, consider the lack of restrictions on the angles of their strikes. If you're going to argue be sensible and try not to come off like some kind of biased fanboy.

Wow. It's nice how you pile up all your assumptions and things the result actually qualifies as an argument. The animation and speed of those lightsabers might be none canon by I wonder where your pulling the idea from that Kreia did anything else than attacking with one saber at once or did show any uber control of those three lightsabers. Oh right. There is nothing to suggest something like that.

And by the way. Ever watched RotS ? I could swear that Obi-Wan did fight Grievous who handled four lightsabers and had two of them destroyed after ten seconds of duelling. Not to mention that the fun with tenetically controlled lightsabers is one can use his own telekinetic abilities against them or the user to break the concentration or turn those lightsabers into his own weapons. Which pretty much limits the effectivity of using such weapons quite much.

Not that there is something to suggest that Kreia handled those lightsabers with an uber skill anyway. Apparently, would it have done any better than her using the hand she had left to fight, she would have started the fight with levitating lightsabers around. Somehow the fact that she uses this as an emergency option strikes me as evidence that it wasn't exactly the best she could do. You may want to think about it. After that you can tell me who is the "biased fanboy" here.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Did you actually look at what you're writing yourself ? So Kreia was willing to destroy the Exile [b]IF the Exile wasn't able to defeat her meaning she didn't want to destroy the Exile at any cost, meaning she was holding back ? Not that it even matters because the Exile is immune to Kreias most powerful force attack which keeps Kreia from "going all out" anyway...[/B]

I think your looking too much into the statement. Kreia was obviously referring to the possibility that if the Exile beats her but doesnt have what it takes to kill her, Traya will kill her instead. This does not mean that Traya was holding back. Traya was doing everything she can to beat the Exile, because that was part of her final test to her. Traya holding back contradicts the intentions she had to train the Exile in the first place. She explicitly said that she used the Exile to be stronger than her. And as Traya said, if they do not kill each other, then all of the Exile's training up to that point wouldve been for nothing.

I mean think about it, if Kreia wasnt trying to beat the Exile to the best of her abilities, then why even bother fighting the Exile in the first place? Heck, why even train the Exile in the first place?

Now Kriea not being able to use her most powerful attack against her is a good point. But does it guarantee her victory even if she can actually use it? No. Just like how I dont think it guarantees her victory against Revan or Exar Kun just because she possesses it and the two Sith Lords dont and doesnt have the means to defend against it.

Oh and as for the Lightsaber techniques, Allankles is right. Regardless of class, the Exile learns 3 Lightsaber techniques in her journeys. She learns the Shii-Cho, Makashi and Soresu. Trust me on this, I just looked at my KOTOR II game and checked my Jedi Sentinel/Watchman and Jedi Consular/Master characters and all 3 of those techniques are useable on both characters. Whether she mastered any one of this, let alone all 3, however is up for speculation.

Originally posted by Allankles
Glentract the main points of your argument were addressed by someone else.

No they weren't. He addressed only a minor detail. Go ahead and get to the rest of it.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
No they weren't. He addressed only a minor detail. Go ahead and get to the rest of it.

I've already read your post and you're yet to give a good enough explanation as to how Warb Null and Ommin are comparable to Sion, Nihilus and Traya.

Outside of trying to discredit the Exile's wins with your own unsupported theories your points have all been addressed.

Sorry, if I come off as arrogant I just don't have the energy to rewrite points that have been addressed previously. I'd go as far as saying Atris is above Warb Null - after all she had generations of Sith lore to back her up.

Borbarad, your example on ESB Luke is pretty weak. The Exile was beating Sion, when I say "holding off" I mean that in the context of fighting a physically immortal foe. Anyone else and I would've used words like 'defeated', 'killed', 'curbstomped' etc etc.

The Exile basically bettered Sion on every ocassion opening up her opportunities to break his will with words. Proving on those occasions that she was the better fighter.

I already know the narration of Kun and Ulic's fight, I have a copy of the comic. For someone who was an equal, why does Ulic function as the apprentice? If you mention force power, then that give's Kun the edge over Ulic in combat - thereby making him the superior and Ulic naturally the inferior. I don't see what you're trying to prove here.

Ulic's feats by themselves don't put him above the Exile, you have to go by wishful thinking and what you believe to be inferred ideas of his yet-to-be-chronicled uber combat prowess.

Ulic was good - let's not hype him up beyond that - but not better than the Exile based on their respective showings.

Again to Borbarad, your points are weak and/or have already been addressed.

LOL.. Despite this crap, Ulic is one of the greatest saber duelists of all time, and the Exile is (judging by the game), average at best. Game play mechanics are non canon for the last time.

A greater duelist based on what piece of golden scripture? Beating run-of-the mill Warb Null, cutting down a half rotting King? Oh... and besting the fiesty little Sylvar? Logic just isn't your strong suit.

By comparison the Exile's victories make her look like a demi god next to Ulic's "intimidating" combat victories. Logic points to Ulic's victories being average, not the Exile's. Every one of Exile's scalps would have wiped the floor with Ulic's.

Originally posted by Allankles
A greater duelist based on what piece of golden scripture? Beating run-of-the mill Warb Null, cutting down a half rotting King? Logic just isn't your strong suite. By comparison the Exile's victories make her look like a demi god next to Ulic's "intimidating" combat accomplishements. Logic points to Ulic's victories being average, not the Exile's.

Wtf is a suite? Logic doesn't seem to be in your vocabulary either when you argue against facts, use gameplay mechanics ars part of your argument, and just repeat your crap.

Ulic stalemated Kun, Ulic stalemated Sylvar without the use of the force. Nothing the exile did puts her on any level above average in saber combat. Beating Kreia? WOW... Kreia was REALLY going all out, as we've noticed. Talking Sion to death? Please. Quit while you're behind.

Sion, Nihilus and Kreia would have curb stomped Sylvar, Warb Null and Ommin.

So because A, B, C were more powerful than D, E, F, suddenly the character that defeated A, B, C is more powerful? Especially since the details of 2 out of 3 of those fights have NOTHING to do with lightsaber combat. This is by far the dumbest thing you've ever said.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wtf is a suite?

Ulic stalemated Kun, Ulic stalemated Sylvar without the use of the force. Nothing the exile did puts her on any level above average in saber combat. Beating Kreia? WOW... Kreia was REALLY going all out, as we've noticed. Talking Sion to death? Please. Quit while you're behind.

What's with the e at the end of suit? Ulic stalemated Kun so? Kun wasn't even at his best. On the flip side while Ulic could only stalemate his one formidable enemy the Exile defeated Traya, Sion and helped bring down and kill Nihilus. Yeah! Stalemating a Jedi who isn't good enough to beat a non-force sensitive in a LIGHTSABER contest - really impressive.

You seem to be leaving behind more of your logic with every post. Which gameplay mechanics? The idea that lightsaber forms are actually part of the narrative? Or don't you get the significance of my statement? Lightsaber forms are not merely restricted to the gameplay in Kotor 2, they are laso part of the STORY. And I'm not discussing the gameplay in this instance but the narrative.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Especially since the details of 2 out of 3 of those fights have NOTHING to do with lightsaber combat. This is by far the dumbest thing you've ever said.

Meaningless dribble, again. They all involve lightsabers in the 'canon', seeing as they're all JEDI/DARK JEDI, the specifics are what remain unknown i.e. the manner in which those fights actually transpired. Jedi use sabers in 'canon'. Think a little before posting.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So because A, B, C were more powerful than D, E, F, suddenly the character that defeated A, B, C is more powerful?

Not necessarily, but given the lack of a constant with which to compare the two directly, the advantage logically goes to the one with the better combat resume - in this case the Exile. Where the ***k have you been during these debates.

Originally posted by Allankles
Meaningless dribble, again. They all involve lightsabers in the 'canon', seeing as they're all JEDI/DARK JEDI, the specifics are what remain unknown i.e. the manner in which those fights actually transpired. Jedi use sabers in 'canon'. Think a little before posting.

Your posts are completely useless. This forum needs a new 'noobaris'.

Originally posted by Allankles
Not necessarily, but given the lack of a constant with which to compare the two directly, the advantage logically goes to the one with the better combat resume - in this case the Exile. Where the ***k have you been during these debates.

The question is, how can anyone be this stupid when it comes to star wars. The exile was involved in what, ONE LIGHTSABER battle. Yet somehow she is even close to Ulic. Learn to debate logically or shut up.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The question is, how can anyone be this stupid when it comes to star wars. The exile was involved in what, ONE LIGHTSABER battle. Yet somehow she is even close to Ulic. Learn to debate logically or shut up.

Which ONE fight? In the canon she engages 4 powerful opponents in combat. In the canon she could've participated in more than one lightsaber match.

I admit she could have taken her opponents down with the force but that still qualifies as a COMBAT feat. If this fight was based on pure lightsabers maybe you'd have half a point, seeing as she could have engaged in countless lightsaber fights or just the one.

You're not making much of a point though, you expect that everyone automatically has the same opinion as you. Ulic's victories in combat are less impressive than the Exile's - it's that simple.

Originally posted by Allankles
Which ONE fight? In the canon she engages 4 powerful opponents in combat. In the canon she could've participated in more than one lightsaber match.

I admit she could have taken her opponents down with the force but that still qualifies as a COMBAT feat. If this fight was based on pure lightsabers maybe you'd have half a point, seeing as she could have engaged in countless lightsaber fights or just the one.

You're not making much of a point though, you expect that everyone automatically has the same opinion as you. Ulic's victories in combat are less impressive than the Exile's - it's that simple. [/B]

Except Ulic's abilities easily trump those of the Exile, Nai and myself have made arguments for Ulic, and you just ignore it because you're an idiot.