Originally posted by Q99
Well, things are working out pretty well for them overall.They couldn't have likely pulled off the rebellion if they worked with an Abyssal.
I disagree, of course. The Rebellion would have been much easier if Riful went with Miria had Clare agreed to help Riful with her simple request.
Riful was not beyond reasoning. She was a bit borderline insane but she seemed to possess reasoning.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree, of course. The Rebellion would have been much easier if Riful went with Miria had Clare agreed to help Riful with her simple request.Riful was not beyond reasoning. She was a bit borderline insane but she seemed to possess reasoning.
But the others wouldn't have joined up with her if Riful was involved, they'd never have trusted an Abyssal One. They'd end up having to fight most of the Claymore.
Originally posted by Q99
But the others wouldn't have joined up with her if Riful was involved, they'd never have trusted an Abyssal One. They'd end up having to fight most of the Claymore.
I disagree, here, as well: if they had agreed to help Riful then they would have helped Riful. The issue of trust is moot at that point in my "make believe" scenario.
And Riful could have taken on the organization, single-handedly, and won: remember, the twins were sent out and that was the perfect chance for Riful and the 7 to take down the organization.
It was just a poor strategic decision on the 7's part to not join up with Riful: she was hardly beyond reason.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree, here, as well: if they had agreed to help Riful then they would have helped Riful. The issue of trust is moot at that point in my "make believe" scenario.And Riful could have taken on the organization, single-handedly, and won: remember, the twins were sent out and that was the perfect chance for Riful and the 7 to take down the organization.
It was just a poor strategic decision on the 7's part to not join up with Riful: she was hardly beyond reason.
The Ghosts would've, but the others would not.
So what you'd have is Riful and the available ghosts (and they'd still have split up like before) vs all the other Claymore include no. 10, the Abyssal Eaters, and the Reborn No. 1s/New Abyssals.
The rebellion of the collective warriors wouldn't happen, in short. If the org is destroyed, hardly a sure thing with the New Abyssals in play, the warriors would go down with them that way.
Originally posted by Q99
The Ghosts would've, but the others would not.So what you'd have is Riful and the available ghosts (and they'd still have split up like before) vs all the other Claymore include no. 10, the Abyssal Eaters, and the Reborn No. 1s/New Abyssals.
The eaters would not have been around, as well. In my scenario, the 7 accept Riful's invitation to help her IF she agrees to help them take down the organization. All other things stay the same: abyssal eaters sent out, the twins sent out, etc. It is just, this time, Riful goes with the 7 directly to the organization, Clare doesn't get tangled up, and Priscilla fights the giant ass thing.
Isley would have been killed by the Abyssal eaters, anyway, and the 7 would have taken down the Organization with Riful. Then the 7 would have been much better prepared to take on the new Abyssals that were created because they have Riful on their side. Riful would have gladly helped because she would have immediately seen them as a threat: remember, she wanted the 7's help against Isley because she saw Isley's actions as a threat to her and her land.
It is at that point, after the nascent Abyssal ones are destroyed, the Organization destroyed, and Riful on the side of the 7 Ghosts, that we would see an entirely different picture to this story. It is at this point that Riful would probably part ways (and she still has Dauf with her, who would have survived) and the would now have an ally who WAS reasonable and sane enough with which to work.
She may have even been able to help with the 7 Ghosts to eradicate the Abyssal Eaters.
So back to the beginning: this now leaves Priscilla still alive and probably searching for Clare. This also leaves Dauf and Riful still alive and in perfect health. This also leaves many more claymore alive. This also leaves all the remaining claymore alive, too (except for the ones Riful would have killed...I think Miria would have still gone in, by herself, to fight the claymore, however. She would have made Clare and the other 5 of the 7 Ghosts stand outside with Riful and Dauf.)
Here's the kicker: I think the way the story is currently written is better than my idea. Things turned out better for all involved, in the end. The current story is better than my suggestion, basically. I just hope they team up with Riful, finally, and stop rejecting her. They have too much prejudice against awakened beings. They are not beyond reason...sure, they are (most of them) insane, but not beyond reason.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The eaters would not have been around, as well. In my scenario, the 7 accept Riful's invitation to help her IF she agrees to help them take down the organization.
Why not? The ones the rebels fought were new ones being prepped. That's why their performance started out bad, as the org people commented on. They weren't the ones after Isley, they were the ones in the ready to replace casualties.
The Organization will have some Abyss Eaters around in any scenario.
Isley would have been killed by the Abyssal eaters, anyway, and the 7 would have taken down the Organization with Riful. Then the 7 would have been much better prepared to take on the new Abyssals that were created because they have Riful on their side. Riful would have gladly helped because she would have immediately seen them as a threat: remember, she wanted the 7's help against Isley because she saw Isley's actions as a threat to her and her land.
If we're talking Riful doing this with 7 immediately instead of awakeining Rafaela and Luciela, Alicia and Beth would be alive, and protecting HQ (though sans Destroyer, no New Abyssals either). That's an Abyssal-level foe who's been training specifically to fight Riful, and is 'complete'. Plus we know if she goes down, Beth'll awaken on the spot.
This is in addition to fighting the the rest of the Claymore too, including the Twins, Abyss Eaters, and No. 10 to mess with their heads... during an Abyssal fight (no-one would be able to do the low yoki thing).
I would say, even if they managed to win and overcome all those foes despite the odds, the ghosts are likely to be wiped out in the clashes. You'd have Riful left standing on her own.
I will however also note that Riful would not agree to an attack on the Org- she believed Isley was alive at that point, and would not risk damage that'd make her vulnerable to him. Likewise, she wouldn't go after Isley because that'd leave her vulnerable to Alicia and the Org.
She wanted their help, not in fighting, but in awakening Rafaela and Luciela, and we know what problems that brings.
Originally posted by Q99
Why not? The ones the rebels fought were new ones being prepped. That's why their performance started out bad, as the org people commented on. They weren't the ones after Isley, they were the ones in the ready to replace casualties.The Organization will have some Abyss Eaters around in any scenario.
Most of the Abyssal eaters had already been sent out. Those that...reamined behind? (I don't remember if some remained behind or were just called back/returning form their missions) were enough for gang to take out. Riful would have been a big help against them, too.
Originally posted by Q99
If we're talking Riful doing this with 7 immediately instead of awakeining Rafaela and Luciela, Alicia and Beth would be alive, and protecting HQ (though sans Destroyer, no New Abyssals either). That's an Abyssal-level foe who's been training specifically to fight Riful, and is 'complete'. Plus we know if she goes down, Beth'll awaken on the spot.
When Riful asked Clare for help, the twins were already out and the Abyssal eaters sent off.
Here are some of the Abyssal Eaters that were sent off (thought we see this later on after Clare and Riful have their talk, I don't think it is even a slight stretch to say that they were already in transit to their locations (both the twins and the Abyssal Feeders):
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v16/c087/3.html
Here are some more fighting Isley:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v16/c088/13.html
The 7 should have accepted her offer and then proceeded to the Organizations HQ. That's what I was talking about.
This is what I'm talking about:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v13/c071/6.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v13/c071/7.html
This is where the 7 should have accepted.
Notice that Riful says:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v13/c071/8.html
"Quickest path to revenge."
That, for me, indicates he would become their ally in helping destroy HQ. For me, this was a mistake on the 7's part.
Originally posted by Q99
I would say, even if they managed to win and overcome all those foes despite the odds, the ghosts are likely to be wiped out in the clashes. You'd have Riful left standing on her own.
I agree but only if we are under the false-assumption that the Twins are still back at HQ: they are not. They have already been sent out/are on their way.
Originally posted by Q99
I will however also note that Riful would not agree to an attack on the Org-
I disagree because she said this when making her offer:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v13/c071/8.html
Seems pretty obvious that she already knew what they were intending. Being 'allies' to get their revenge? Sounds like she fully intended to attack HQ with them if they would lend her a hand.
Originally posted by Q99
she believed Isley was alive at that point, and would not risk damage that'd make her vulnerable to him. Likewise, she wouldn't go after Isley because that'd leave her vulnerable to Alicia and the Org.
She didn't want to fight Isley, just yet. She wanted Clare's help with the joined sisters. Likely, she wouldn't get that help until after she helped destroy HQ: the 7 wouldn't be stupid enough to help Riful before getting her help.
Them mistake made in that exchange is the threat Riful made. She thought she could kill them before they left: she couldn't. If she, instead, assumed that they could try to escape (she had no reason to believe they could until they did, however, which is why the story had to progress in the manner it did) and approached the conversation that way, maybe Clare and Miria would have accepted her off. We'd have an entirely different story, then.
Originally posted by Q99
She wanted their help, not in fighting, but in awakening Rafaela and Luciela, and we know what problems that brings.
No, she wanted their help to fight Isley. You are interpretting what I said incorrectly. I'll explain myself better:
She thought the sister-blob thing could be used to fight both Priscilla and Isley. She knew about Isley and his little monster at the moment, remember? She needed a sensor type to help with that blob thingie to get it to work as a weapon that she would use to directly fight Isley and the "monster". So, in other words, she needed them to fight Isley and Priscilla. Kind of like needing the circuit boards for GPS Guided missiles: she needed those circuit boards to fight her war.
Most of the Abyssal eaters had already been sent out. Those that...reamined behind? (I don't remember if some remained behind or were just called back/returning form their missions) were enough for gang to take out. Riful would have been a big help against them, too.
Ones that were in preparation to being sent.
Abyss Eaters were sent in waves. You send out a batch, a bunch die, the survivors return, you reinforce them, send out another batch.
Riful'd have other things to deal with. Also remember no. 10. While Abyss Eaters are beatable by the Seven Ghosts, of course, they're still dangerous and the ghosts will start hallucinating and messing up mid-fight.
When Riful asked Clare for help, the twins were already out and the Abyssal eaters sent off.
That group of Abyss Eaters, yes. The twins however were specifically noted *not* to be sent out until Isley was dead and they were going after Riful.
Riful herself says it here:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v17/c094/8.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v17/c094/9.html
One other thing: When Alicia and Beth were sent out, it was being lead by Abyss Eaters who had Riful's scene, using pieces Rachel cut off in their skirmish where the Ghosts showed up. So they couldn't have left until they had those samples, which wouldn't be around in this scenario.
Those sent out along with Alicia and Beth in turn died. Detrich used them against the Destroyer Monsters.
The ones at Org HQ were a third batch- not the ones sent against Isley nor the ones sent as guides.
In this scenario, there should be more at HQ than there were in canon, as the second group wouldn't be dispatched. Or maybe the second would be around but the third wouldn't be ready. In any case, there will be Abyss Eaters in defense, as well as Alicia and Beth, number 10, the Twins, plus whatever other Claymore they have.
Which, come to think of it, would include Miata, who wouldn't be sent against Galatia yet but would still be training under Clarice. Unlike most Claymore she's stronger than most of the ghosts.
She didn't want to fight Isley, just yet. She wanted Clare's help with the joined sisters. Likely, she wouldn't get that help until after she helped destroy HQ: the 7 wouldn't be stupid enough to help Riful before getting her help.
She never said she'd fight without getting their help first.
Heck, if she thought she could just go and destroy HQ, she'd probably have already done it without their help, and bringing them in the fight would actively jeopardize her plans, since if they died she can't awakening Raf/Luc and is screwed.
She did think their power was insignificant, after all.
And assuming she wins... what if Isley shows up while they're wounded and not ready yet? It's a big risk on multiple fronts.
I.e. her offer was, "You help me awaken this, then you're off the hit list when I become strong enough to win against these powers you can't."
Going and fighting without her ace in the hole was too risky.
Originally posted by Q99
Ones that were in preparation to being sent.Abyss Eaters were sent in waves. You send out a batch, a bunch die, the survivors return, you reinforce them, send out another batch.
Riful'd have other things to deal with. Also remember no. 10. While Abyss Eaters are beatable by the Seven Ghosts, of course, they're still dangerous and the ghosts will start hallucinating and messing up mid-fight.
Riful's way of fighting would make it much easier for her to fight the AFs than Isley. Isley's handicap was his uni-directional attack. Sure, it has super super high-attack power but that bow and arrows generally shoots in one direction. Riful, on the other hand, can attack in all directions, up and down and around, all at once. She would be a much better match-up for Abyssal Feeders than Isley.
The 7 more than proved they were a match, too.
Originally posted by Q99
That group of Abyss Eaters, yes. The twins however were specifically noted *not* to be sent out until Isley was dead and they were going after Riful.Riful herself says it here:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v17/c094/8.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v17/c094/9.html/B]
By the time they reached HQ, those events would have long since transpired. That was my point. Isley would have been destroyed long before the 7 and Riful arrived. The twins would have been long-gone.
Personally, I think the twins were already gone when Isley was getting attacked. I have nothing to back that up with other than just conjecture. Regardless, they would not be there when everyone already arrived to destroy HQ. It makes sense that Organization would think the Abyssal Feeders would succeed against Isley and then send out the twins to finish up the "others".
Originally posted by Q99
[B]One other thing: When Alicia and Beth were sent out, it was being lead by Abyss Eaters who had Riful's scene, using pieces Rachel cut off in their skirmish where the Ghosts showed up. So they couldn't have left until they had those samples, which wouldn't be around in this scenario.
Your point is nulled by the fact that they would not be at HQ by the timie the 7 and Riful arrived if they had joined up. Isley would have long since been dead and the twins long since dispatched.
Originally posted by Q99
In this scenario, there should be more at HQ than there were in canon, as the second group wouldn't be dispatched. Or maybe the second would be around but the third wouldn't be ready. In any case, there will be Abyss Eaters in defense, as well as Alicia and Beth, number 10, the Twins, plus whatever other Claymore they have.
That's not correct: no changes would have occurred in my scenario as far as Abyssal Feeders are concerned. The twins and the feeders would have been dispatched all the same.
As pointed out, the twins would not be there, either.
Let me make my case more clear: in order for the twins to end up where Riful was, they had to have already been dispatched by HQ in that direction considering it takes a day or 2 to reach them. That means that would have had to be on their way before Isley was even dead. They would have had to been dispatched around the same time, really. This is why I think the twins were already gone. Unless the organization as a teleportation technique that I am not aware of?
Originally posted by Q99
Which, come to think of it, would include Miata, who wouldn't be sent against Galatia yet but would still be training under Clarice. Unlike most Claymore she's stronger than most of the ghosts.
Incorrect: they would have long since been sent out.
I think you're forgetting how long it took for them to travel to HQ. I think it was the span of days.
A few of the 7 were fighting those awakened being-level rods for almost a day straight, remember? Then there is the length of time it took the 7 to travel to HQ and then the time it took Miria to run ahead of them to HQ.
Like I pointed out, the twins would have long since been dispatched with the abyssal feeders, Isley dead, and Riful and the 7 on their way by the time the 7 and Riful arrived at HQ to wipe them out.
Originally posted by Q99
She never said she'd fight without getting their help first.
Actually, it was made quite clear that she'd help them get their revenge against The Oganization. That makes it so clear, in fact, that there should be no doubt on your part that she fully intended to help them fight The Organization. She also seemed to know something about the Organization that they didn't because she said their quickest path was with her help, which is true.
She also never said she would get their help first before fighting.
Note these words I stated:
"Likely, she (she-Riful) wouldn't get that help until after she helped destroy HQ: the 7 wouldn't be stupid enough to help Riful before getting her help."
Originally posted by Q99
Heck, if she thought she could just go and destroy HQ, she'd probably have already done it without their help, and bringing them in the fight would actively jeopardize her plans, since if they died she can't awakening Raf/Luc and is screwed.
That is incorrect assumption because she said:
"...your quickest path to revenge is to become my ally."
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/claymore/v13/c071/8.html
The implied is her help makes their revenge more quickly possible, not that they could not succeed. The assumption is clearly there that they could succeed but it would take them longer to succeed without her help.
She saw how much better and precise they were than the organizations 3 and 5: they made those two look pathetic. She knew they could easily succeed. And Miria was raping them alone (for the most part) while holding back, immensely, so Riful did not misjudge them. She just thought they could get their revenge even faster with her help. 🙂
So, no, it would not jeapordize her plans. Had all 7 attacked, they would have decimated HQ and slaughtered them all. But Miria never intended for that to happen. That was the whole "burden" thing she was going on about. But I think Riful knew that the Organization had something up their sleeves which is why she thought it would take longer.
Also, Riful could have easily destroyed HQ by herself before the timeskip. Immature twins, abyssal feeders not around yet, etc. She could have solo'd the org. Both her and Isley could have done so for decades or even hundreds of years (I think Isley is over 300 years old...or maybe I just made that number up...I just don't remember). So why haven't they? It is definitely not because the organization could stand up to them: there is no way they could until they built their twins and abyssal feeders.
Originally posted by Q99
She did think their power was insignificant, after all.
I am confused: are you contradicting what you said about Riful not being able to take on the Organization? I think I see what you're saying but it seems contradictory to what you said prior. Sure, Riful's power definitely makes Clare's seem insignificant. That's what Clare is saying and that is true. I think the 7 could pull out a win against Riful 3 out of 10 times. Riful is a tough cookie because she can attack from all vectors with dozens of attacks (maybe even hundreds). She probably can be said to have the highest attack power of the great abyssal ones before the time-skip.
Originally posted by Q99
And assuming she wins... what if Isley shows up while they're wounded and not ready yet? It's a big risk on multiple fronts.
And yet, she tried to help them so this point seems to be null in the pretend scenario I am entertaining. Riful seems to know Isley better than most: that's why she didn't see it as a risk and why she offered to team up with the 7 to destroy HQ.
How did she know they were going to destroy HQ, by the way? I don't remember how she knew that. Did they tell her in their first meeting or something?
Originally posted by Q99
I.e. her offer was, "You help me awaken this, then you're off the hit list when I become strong enough to win against these powers you can't."
That wasn't her offer, at all, actually.
She directly offered to help them destroy HQ.
This was more the offer:
1. You want to destroy HQ, that would be fun for me so I'll help.
2. But you must help me with X.
The order of when 1 or 2 would be executed was not decided or discussed. That point of the negotiation was never reached.
Originally posted by Q99
Going and fighting without her ace in the hole was too risky.
I don't think that's correct, either. She would knock out the Organization, first, and then use her "ace" to destroy Isley. 🙂 That makes much more sense, strategically, then assuming that she was would be attacked by Isley as she destroys HQ.
By the time they reached HQ, those events would have long since transpired. That was my point. Isley would have been destroyed long before the 7 and Riful arrived. The twins would have been long-gone.Personally, I think the twins were already gone when Isley was getting attacked. I have nothing to back that up with other than just conjecture. Regardless, they would not be there when everyone already arrived to destroy HQ. It makes sense that Organization would think the Abyssal Feeders would succeed against Isley and then send out the twins to finish up the "others".
The Abyss Feeders had been going for awhile, assuming they'd be done seems needlessly risky.
And even if they were sent out... they'd be sent out against Riful. That is to say, Riful wouldn't have an opportunity to attack HQ undefended because Alicia and Beth and a group of Feeders would be headed right at her.
However we can tell this isn't the case, because they were only sent out after getting pieces of Riful, which were only gained during the alliance negotiations.
So, no, it would not jeapordize her plans. Had all 7 attacked, they would have decimated HQ and slaughtered them all. But Miria never intended for that to happen.
If she assumed that, she'd be wrong. Sure, she'd be able to beat the Claymore, though it'd be a fight (Miata'd be in, and she was tough enough to go after Galatea. Much stronger than Audrey).
However, Alicia is too strong for them.
Here's a list of available HQ defending assets at the time of the alliance negotiation:
Claymore, including Miata, who's #1 level, and several of the single digits who ended up more spread out in canon.
Alicia & Beth.
No. 10, who'll disable individual ghosts who awaken their yoki. This is intensely fatal in a high-level battle.
The young twins
The Abyss Feeders
The Abyss Feeders are also more dangerous if you don't know about them, and in this case they wouldn't have Deitrich to warn them and teach them how to avoid the feeders. Remember how in their first encounter with them, Helen got an arm cut off and an eye stabbed because she underestimated them due to them not putting out yoki power?
One of the key tipping points, though, is Raftela and her anti-warrior training. Even Miria and Claire are in big trouble if they zone out in battle.
I am confused: are you contradicting what you said about Riful not being able to take on the Organization? I think I see what you're saying but it seems contradictory to what you said prior.
I'm saying that Riful would not think of the ghosts as a tipping point.
If she didn't think she could do it on her own safely, she wouldn't rely on the 7's fighting power to tip it.
We know the 7 are more powerful than she thought, but she didn't consider them direct battle assets.
She directly offered to help them destroy HQ.
Not quite. She directly offered them revenge; they had reason to want revenge against Isley too.
And the only time she mentioned any method was awakening her ace in the hole.
Also, Riful could have easily destroyed HQ by herself before the timeskip. Immature twins, abyssal feeders not around yet, etc.
Note even incomplete Alicia when we first met her, way pre-timeskip, would inflict heavy damage.
And, at the time they had powerful Claymore like Galatea and Rafaele, to send after a wounded target to finish off. We've seen how Abyssal Ones are far more vulnerable after a major battle, when they have trouble maintaining their forms.
And, of course, there were two other abyssals to worry about, so it'd be fairly foolhardy.
By the time Luciela was dead, Alicia was complete.
New Chapter Raw
Originally posted by Q99
Whoa,Spoiler:
Claire got crazy powerful! I guess with Rafaela, she's at *least* as powerful as a strong no 1, and maybe she's moving towards Teresa realm.And Rifuldauf? Awesome.
Indeed. Looks good to me. Looks like she finally managed to master the quick sword.
And I think it is sad that Riful is going up against Priscilla. 🙁 We all know how that ends.
Ok, the full chapter's out.
Spoiler:
Yikes, Clare's saying that the quicksword is just at Irene's old level?? I'd say Irene is the level of a lower no. 1 and she didn't have some of Clare's other abilities, but still, that's some impressive move (and makes Teresa and Priscilla more impressive).But it's not enough to stop Cassandra... fortunately, awakened reinforcements!
And Rifuldauf confirmed as beyond abyssal power.
Originally posted by Q99
They already knew about Priscilla though, and they reacted when Rifuldauf acted.
They already knew about Riful is the correct statement. They have never seen Priscilla, before. We don't know whether they ever saw Riful but everyone, especially awakened beings, were aware of the Abyssal Being dynamic.
This is how we know that they were aware that Riful was involved:
Originally posted by dadudemon
They already knew about Riful is the correct statement. They have never seen Priscilla, before. We don't know whether they ever saw Riful but everyone, especially awakened beings, were aware of the Abyssal Being dynamic.This is how we know that they were aware that Riful was involved:
They had talked to Miria about Priscilla, Miria explaining that Prissy is the one that surpassed the power of an Abyssal and all she was up to, struggling against the mindless Destroyer.
At that point you linked, they sensed something Riful-like, and in this chapter, they sensed it surpassed the power of an Abyssal. Hence, another power beyond the level of Abyssal.