Son Goku vs Dark Schneider (Bastard)!!

Originally posted by BloodRain
Then it seems we've been talking about two different things. The whole time I was talking about the issues with linear PL scaling, not whatever youre talking about. 😕 Back to the plot, the method you used just then in right in theory buy doesnt yield results. All that says is someone with a higher PL is faster without telling us by how much. For instance PL200 Goku is 400x faster than a PL5 human while a PL500,000 Frieza is only around 5-10x faster than a PL14,000 Gohan. <-The difference between Goku and a humans PL is the same as the difference between Frieza's and Gohans, as we can see the speeds dont match up with the PL change.

....yeah carver, what youre describing isnt PL scaling. Linear PL scaling is when you say, for example, PL100 Goku is Mach 10 so PL200 Goku must be Mach 20 as the power level double so must the speed. THATS PL scaling, not what you're doing.

The burden of proof is on you kind sir. If you claim its FTL and a second/instant then its up to you to prove it. And make it a good on as your whole argument rests on this.

Which isnt FTL since you have to first prove that the moon feat, besides its inconsistency, happened in a second. Also it happened in several panels, so if 1 panel = 1 second... Lets just say you'll need to get that time-frame.

Missed the point. See why would anyone be as shocked as they are if to them he simply vanished if people have been doing that all day in the ring with no one being as surprised. Their reactions wouldnt even change if it was as fast as you think. Hang on a sec, Shen being launched was at the blasts speed but Roshi being launched isnt? Double standards.

Cyclops' beams arent FTL, they're energy launched from another dimension. Moving on, the Kamehameha is moving him as fast as the beam just like how anyone caught in the beam is launched at its speed. Meaning Roshi, like any other instance, was moving just as fast. You say fail alot without actually proving anything, might wanna work on that.

[Stupid photobucket freezing up >__>]

The only thing that fails is if you fail to notice. 9 circled people trying to get away from the beams, out of the 9 the 6 thick lined ones are blatantly reacting to the beams about to strike them. Theres also one green ringed one. No reason, its just green.

One more time from the top; why in your opinion are the beams FTL because they traveled the planet in.... some amount of time?

Satan said ''light ball tricks'' plural so not just the one struggle. The one Vegeta used would count in this.

------
TBH you're fighting an unwinnable argument. First its going to be near impossible for you to get a time-frame for Piccolo's blast, failing to do so destroys any chance of FTL arguments. Second is that this feat can't actually be SoL as its inconsistent to the rest of the series. So no matter how you look at it the base of your argument is gone.

I'm literally just getting tired of debating this topic.

What I am going to do though is show you something. Guildo had a PL of 23k whereas Gohun and Krillin was 25k. They did all of this so fast (in the blink of Guildo super speed eyes) that Guildo didn't see anything that happened... it was all invisible to him.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/5512/303411-fat_super.jpg

They shoot a blast... beat the blast to its location (Guildo) all before Guildo knew what was going on... hell, he couldn't even find them.

So what do we get out of this scan... even though the PL difference isn't major, the speed difference is ENORMOUS... to the point where the person with the slightly lower PL can't even see his opponents and basically becomes a statue.

The smallest gap in power becomes a major increase in speed. I'm just tired of the rest of our discussion because you keep repeating yourself and the things that you are saying really isn't aiding in our discussion.

Guldo had a PL of 13,500.

Also, Burter had a lower PL than both Recoome and Jeice.

He was faster than both.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Guldo had a PL of 13,500.

Also, Burter had a lower PL than both Recoome and Jeice.

He was faster than both.

Thanks Nemebro... I kind of had the feeling I was off by a bit. It still helps my argument that Guildo couldnt perceive Krillin and Gohun who wasn't that far above him PL wise.

As for your comment about Burta... well, he THOUGHT of himself as one of the fastest but going by the showings Goku had against the Ginyu force, it wasn't that much of a difference and he seemed slower than Jeice.

Also, wasn't Burta PL under Jeice and above Recoome?

Another example... not that much of a difference in PL but by a small gap and Krillin is still unable to perceive him...http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/5512/303313-nasta1_super.gif.

Originally posted by carver9
Another example... not that much of a difference in PL but by a small gap and Krillin is still unable to perceive him...http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/5512/303313-nasta1_super.gif

I fixed this scan so that you will be able to see it.

Here we have Nappa being unable to touch or perceive a holding back Goku and the PL was a thousand difference.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/5512/303862-nappagoku5_super.jpg

Burter(62k), Jeice(64k) and Ginyu(120k) all stated that Burta was the fastest. (Racoom was 65k)

Originally posted by carver9
What I am going to do though is show you something. Guildo had a PL of 23k whereas Gohun and Krillin was 25k. They did all of this so fast (in the blink of Guildo super speed eyes) that Guildo didn't see anything that happened... it was all invisible to him.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/5512/303411-fat_super.jpg

They shoot a blast... beat the blast to its location (Guildo) all before Guildo knew what was going on... hell, he couldn't even find them.

So what do we get out of this scan... even though the PL difference isn't major, the speed difference is ENORMOUS... to the point where the person with the slightly lower PL can't even see his opponents and basically becomes a statue.

The smallest gap in power becomes a major increase in speed. I'm just tired of the rest of our discussion because you keep repeating yourself and the things that you are saying really isn't aiding in our discussion.

..Urmm, actually.. you got the numbers wrong. Guldo's PL was 13,500, Gohan was PL 14,000 and Krillin was PL 13,000. Krillin was much faster even with a lower powerlevel, should have check that first as it makes this post null.

We also have a PL250,000+ Vegeta's speed being on par with PL530,000 Frieza the method you're using is fruitless. [280,000 difference]
Or how about PL8,000 Goku still being able to perceive a PL18,000 Vegeta, unlike Guldo who couldn't even see Gohan and Krillin. [10,000 difference]
(More if you include Goku being able to avoid a PL100,000+ Oozaru Vegeta [100,000 difference])
Also how the difference between Goku and Racoom's speed was far greater than the difference between Racoom and Vegeta, even thought the PL's would say the opposite would be true or it'd be an equal increase.
The Burter thing above.^
Lastly theres how a PL80,000 Goku (Ginyu said before the kaio-ken that his power was below 85,000) was faster than a PL120,000 Ginyu. [40,000 difference]

Look, if you want to say that someone with a higher PL is faster then you're more than welcome to. What you cant do is try to state exactly how fast they would be as there isn't any correlation to get direct numbers. Attempting to say that SSJ1 Goku is lightspeed as his PL is millions of times higher than during Snake Way doesn't work.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm literally just getting tired of debating this topic.

TBH you're fighting an unwinnable argument. First its going to be near impossible for you to get a time-frame for Piccolo's blast, failing to do so destroys any chance of FTL arguments. Second is that this feat can't actually be SoL as its inconsistent to the rest of the series. So no matter how you look at it the base of your argument is gone.

I maintain that Power Level only signifies the amount of energy each character has. It explains why they recognize people with a higher level as being way more powerful. They can't sense how fast they are or how strong they are by sensing a power level.

^Thats basically it.

Even the true name of Sento-ryoku doesnt make you think of anything besides their energy or power. (Sento=Combat/Fighting, Ryoku=Strength/Power.)

Originally posted by BloodRain
Burter(62k), Jeice(64k) and Ginyu(120k) all stated that Burta was the fastest. (Racoom was 65k)

..Urmm, actually.. you got the numbers wrong. Guldo's PL was 13,500, Gohan was PL 14,000 and Krillin was PL 13,000. Krillin was much faster even with a lower powerlevel, should have check that first as it makes this post null.

We also have a PL250,000+ Vegeta's speed being on par with PL530,000 Frieza the method you're using is fruitless. [280,000 difference]
Or how about PL8,000 Goku still being able to perceive a PL18,000 Vegeta, unlike Guldo who couldn't even see Gohan and Krillin. [10,000 difference]
(More if you include Goku being able to avoid a PL100,000+ Oozaru Vegeta [100,000 difference])
Also how the difference between Goku and Racoom's speed was far greater than the difference between Racoom and Vegeta, even thought the PL's would say the opposite would be true or it'd be an equal increase.
The Burter thing above.^
Lastly theres how a PL80,000 Goku (Ginyu said before the kaio-ken that his power was below 85,000) was faster than a PL120,000 Ginyu. [40,000 difference]

Look, if you want to say that someone with a higher PL is faster then you're more than welcome to. What you cant do is try to state exactly how fast they would be as there isn't any correlation to get direct numbers. Attempting to say that SSJ1 Goku is lightspeed as his PL is millions of times higher than during Snake Way doesn't work.

What I find interesting is that the second I prove that humans can perceive the beams, which kills the lightspeed beams argument, and then ask you to [b]prove the main foundation of your argument you suddenly get tired of debating. Is is some massive coincidence or do you concede to this:

😐 [/B]

Burta wasn't the fastest though and that's the main point. I am pretty sure they said ONE of the fastest but even then it would be a lie since Burta was unable to lay a glove on Goku but Jeice was able to blast Goku into a trick and Ginyu was actually tagging/giving Goku hell.

The only reason Krillin did so well against Guildo is because he was teamed with Gohun which was tricking Guildo senses. I shouldn't have brought that fight up since it really didn't help my case but it did show Gohun and Krillin moving faster then their blast so the only thing we have to prove now is how fast their ki attacks are.

We know why Goku was able to perceive Vegeta, he was amping himself throughout the fight.

WTF...

Vegeta was never on par with frieza.

When Vegeta received that sensu bean, he was able to perceive both Goku AND Ginyu... before this, his PL wasn't in thed 100K.

Goku during his fight against the Ginyu force was amping his ki almost instantly and dropping it down to level 10 when they were trying to read his PL with the scouter... Ginyu even states this while fighting Goku and admits that its pointless using the scouter against him. That's why Goku was able to keep up with Ginyu... he was amping throughout the fight instantly.

You never refuted my argument and like I told you before, your scans didn't show a human perceiving a z fighters attacks.

if carver9 thinks that goku losses he isnt a real db fan and he souldnt post again.vegeta and nappa came to earth in around 1 year from a FAR FAR FAR FAR away place with spaceships those space ships were MUCH ftl but they used them not for speed but cuz they might have a problem breathing in space.lol to think that vegeta scouter might be faster that a spaceship which is EXTREMELY faster than light then what could you think of vegeta ssj4 speed? 😬

Originally posted by Karagiannis
if carver9 thinks that goku losses he isnt a real db fan and he souldnt post again.vegeta and nappa came to earth in around 1 year from a FAR FAR FAR FAR away place with spaceships those space ships were MUCH ftl but they used them not for speed but cuz they might have a problem breathing in space.lol to think that vegeta scouter might be faster that a spaceship which is EXTREMELY faster than light then what could you think of vegeta ssj4 speed? 😬

Just because I like Goku and DBZ peeps doesn't mean they can beat anybody. Even though they are powerful, they have limits just like any other character does.

I think a lot of people low ball them because they don't want them being more powerful than characters that they like but overall, DBZ is hellava powerful... has even been called gods BUT they are not unbeatable.

^Went through a fan-rage when I saw people saying the Sailor Moon or Tenchi Muyo verse is >> the DBZ verse... can now admit to this after research and dropping the fan-goggles. (The rage is still here though... >___>😉

Originally posted by carver9

The max Goku could go to without Kaio-ken was 8,000. At his best before x2 he was able to see some of Vegeta's moves.

Oozaru makes a Saiyans PL increase by 10x, aye.

Mhmm, before he transformed he attacked Vegeta who graciously caught his attack with little difficulty. With a PL gap that large Freeza should of had little difficulty if the scaling matched up. Heck even Gohan was momentarily able to tag a PL1mil Freeza, all three able to keep track of Freeza and Piccolo fighting.

That was after his Zenkai kicked in and increased his PL. Before Racoom he was PL30k to Racoom's 65k, Goku was 90k. PL scaling and percentage says that Racoom should have been blitzing Vegeta faster than Goku was blitzing him.

That was before the fight. During the fight Ginyu said nothing about Goku's PL, he only mentioned it before he demonstrated his Kaio-ken where he guessed it would go up to 85k then the actual reading later. The point is that base Goku's full speed is faster than Ginyu's full speed, making a lower PL faster than a higher PL.

Originally posted by carver9

goku destroys the sailor moon verse himself in 5 millionseconds.what are you talking about?tenchi muyo verse is suckish goku would find a way to rape tenchi hard.no one can beat him.also he have the dragonballs in his body

Originally posted by BloodRain
^Went through a fan-rage when I saw people saying the Sailor Moon or Tenchi Muyo verse is >> the DBZ verse... can now admit to this after research and dropping the fan-goggles. (The rage is still here though... >___>😉

Lol so now hyperhole means something. They all boasted, he even thought himself, that he was the fastest person around. Goku was distracted by Ginyu, naturally got caught off-guard.

The max Goku could go to without Kaio-ken was 8,000. At his best before x2 he was able to see some of Vegeta's moves.

Oozaru makes a Saiyans PL increase by 10x, aye.

Mhmm, before he transformed he attacked Vegeta who graciously caught his attack with little difficulty. With a PL gap that large Freeza should of had little difficulty if the scaling matched up. Heck even Gohan was momentarily able to tag a PL1mil Freeza, all three able to keep track of Freeza and Piccolo fighting.

That was after his Zenkai kicked in and increased his PL. Before Racoom he was PL30k to Racoom's 65k, Goku was 90k. PL scaling and percentage says that Racoom should have been blitzing Vegeta faster than Goku was blitzing him.

That was before the fight. During the fight Ginyu said nothing about Goku's PL, he only mentioned it before he demonstrated his Kaio-ken where he guessed it would go up to 85k then the actual reading later. The point is that base Goku's full speed is faster than Ginyu's full speed, making a lower PL faster than a higher PL.

Several people in the Buu image, which is pretty clear, for starters. Beams launch people as fast as the beams itself, just like when people get caught in the blasts. Eg Roshi and Shen would be moving at the same speed as they're being propelled by the same beam, yet you think Roshi was moving slower than Shen for some reason.
...aw no fair, ya got me answering your post before you answered mine >; So gonna give me an answer or not? This is your foundation point so you must to be able to back it up, if not the whole FTL defense crumbles here and now.

Lol... you're cool with me Bloodrain. I like your persistance. People usually give up. I will respond to this in a minute.

I'm going to win this debate.

Originally posted by Karagiannis
goku destroys the sailor moon verse himself in 5 millionseconds.what are you talking about?tenchi muyo verse is suckish goku would find a way to rape tenchi hard.no one can beat him.also he have the dragonballs in his body

5 million seconds is a long time.

yep your right.

Originally posted by Karagiannis
goku destroys the sailor moon verse himself in 5 millionseconds.what are you talking about?tenchi muyo verse is suckish goku would find a way to rape tenchi hard.no one can beat him.also he have the dragonballs in his body

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... you're cool with me Bloodrain. I like your persistance. People usually give up. I will respond to this in a minute.

I'm going to win this debate.

anyway dbzverse is massively faster than light.goku will wipe out sailor moon verse in less that 5 millionseconds.tenchi will be hard to beat but goku wins

But... Omnipotent beings can't lose... ever.