Son Goku vs Dark Schneider (Bastard)!!

Originally posted by BloodRain
(Missed the 15 mins) If the area Frieza fought the gang was around the same area where they summoned Potanga then that article got it wrong, it wasn't half the planet away it was a small distance in fact that we see.

On that note a pissed Frieza couldnt even reach them until after Krillin found Dende, brought him back, made a plan, took the Balls, summoned the Dragon, made 2 wishes while speaking to Piccolo and then a small conflict with Vegeta. Not really FTL speeds is it?

Huh... you completely screwed up his post.

And let's not even include the fact that tien has an attack called "light-speed" fury attack that he used against Goku during the tournament in Dragonball. It was basically punches that he was throwing at light speed.

heyy i know hisistasu11 ive had subbed to his youtube account....goku wins how many proffs do you want??

"As fast as light" and "As fast as lightning" are nothing but metaphors.(Hence the "Calm as the sky" comment) It doesn't matter as Krillin taking an hour to reach the Grand Elder's place and Frieza not appearing 'til after all that proves that they're not FTL.

-Nearly 2 days for Goku to cross snake way.(With corners cut) 1,000,000 km in 28 hours, speed = <Mach 30. BUT using the more likely 500,000 km (Cut corners) we get a speed of <Mach 15.
SoL would have taken 3 seconds.
-Krillin and Gohan taking around an hour to reach the Grand Elder. Assuming its on the opposite side of an Earth sized planet; 20,000 km in 1 hour, speed = <Mach 20.
SoL would have taken 0.067 seconds.
-Frieza not reaching them until after a large amount of time passed. Same distance as above but took him 15 mins, speed = <Mach 60.
SoL again would have taken 0.067 seconds.
-Gotenks taking around a minute to get to Buu's house. Speed = ..now this has been recorded by OBD[narutoforums] as DBZ's fastest speed that can be calc'd with these two assumptions; that it took him 1 minute to get there and that Buu's house was on the opposite side of the planet. Speed = <Mach 980.
SoL once again would have taken 0.067 seconds.

^ All these instances have the characters moving as fast as possible with neither getting close to SoL. Its like I said ''..at best just over 1/1000th c.'' The only things that hint to faster speeds are metaphors, unquantifiable feats and moves that have the word 'light' in them.

Karagiannis why are you still posting? You obviously don't know how to prove something like how I just proved that Buu wasn't a galaxy buster with that manga scan. You cant prove things and your opinion means little.

if my opinions means little then yours doesnt meak anything your so stupid that you can understant that almost every dbz character after android saga is ftl.even master roshi can destroy mini planets.chars like omega shenron whi is the 2 strongest of the series can destroy universes

Originally posted by Karagiannis
if my opinions means little then yours doesnt meak anything your so stupid that you can understant that almost every dbz character after android saga is ftl.even master roshi can destroy mini planets.chars like omega shenron whi is the 2 strongest of the series can destroy universes

u mad?

Sorry but I like to be insulted with proper sentences, ya mind working on that?

And no, your opinion means nothing because you only say something without backing it up or saying why. My opinion is worth something because I explain my reasons and provide scans, proof and evidence. Understand?

If you think they're FTL after the android saga, then prove it. If you can that is. And by prove it I mean show the scene, post a manga scan or explain 'why' they're FTL. Btw ''watch the buu saga'' and ''they are ftl cos i said so'' is not proof.

Originally posted by BloodRain
"As fast as light" and "As fast as lightning" are nothing but metaphors.(Hence the "Calm as the sky" comment) It doesn't matter as Krillin taking an hour to reach the Grand Elder's place and Frieza not appearing 'til after all that proves that they're not FTL.

-Nearly 2 days for Goku to cross snake way.(With corners cut) 1,000,000 km in 28 hours, speed = <Mach 30. BUT using the more likely 500,000 km (Cut corners) we get a speed of <Mach 15.
SoL would have taken 3 seconds.
-Krillin and Gohan taking around an hour to reach the Grand Elder. Assuming its on the opposite side of an Earth sized planet; 20,000 km in 1 hour, speed = <Mach 20.
SoL would have taken 0.067 seconds.
-Frieza not reaching them until after a large amount of time passed. Same distance as above but took him 15 mins, speed = <Mach 60.
SoL again would have taken 0.067 seconds.
-Gotenks taking around a minute to get to Buu's house. Speed = ..now this has been recorded by OBD[narutoforums] as DBZ's fastest speed that can be calc'd with these two assumptions; that it took him 1 minute to get there and that Buu's house was on the opposite side of the planet. Speed = <Mach 980.
SoL once again would have taken 0.067 seconds.

^ All these instances have the characters moving as fast as possible with neither getting close to SoL. Its like I said ''..at best just over 1/1000th c.'' The only things that hint to faster speeds are metaphors, unquantifiable feats and moves that have the word 'light' in them.

Karagiannis why are you still posting? You obviously don't know how to prove something like how I just proved that Buu wasn't a galaxy buster with that manga scan. You cant prove things and your opinion means little.

Ok, I will post to the rest of your post later but I have one question. How would we know if someone is punching at light speed outside of the character himself TELLING US that he is delivering light speed punches?

Another question... pretty mucch common sense. If Piccolo shot a random blast at the moon that reached it at light speed... do you honestly believe that he would shoot a more powerful blast at Raditz that is much slower than the blast he used to destroy the moon. Then let's not even include the fact that the blast was called LIGHT of death. Again, why would Piccolo shoot light speed attacks and then reference this attack as one of his fastest after Raditz dodge it point blank and it being slower than his attack that destroyed the moon. This is all common sense.

The rest of your post is pointless because if it took Goku 2 days to cross snake way and a Super Saiyan is mulitudes more faster than the Goku that took 2 days to cross snak way, it shouldn't take Goku any time at all to get across that brigde and during the time he reached Namek. Think about this... at a power level of 1000, it took him 170 days, his power level increased to 5000 rnning snake way and it only took him 28 hours... the difference in speed is INSANE with such a small gap in power and the thing about it is, Goku was trying to conserve energy on the way back to Earth. A super Saiyan with a PL of 150000000 should be able to cross snake way instantly with the huge difference in speed vs him doing it the first time at 1000 vs 5000 (which only took 28 hrs).

All of this is common sense... I don't care about your caculations because its wrong and the guy on my scan that I presented was much more clear than you. Hell, if it took Goku at a power level of 5000 to run snake way for some hours, imagine what he can do at 180000, the pl he had when he reached Namek. All of this is common sense.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Sorry but I like to be insulted with proper sentences, ya mind working on that?

And no, your opinion means nothing because you only say something [b]without backing it up or saying why. My opinion is worth something because I explain my reasons and provide scans, proof and evidence. Understand?

If you think they're FTL after the android saga, then prove it. If you can that is. And by prove it I mean show the scene, post a manga scan or explain 'why' they're FTL. Btw ''watch the buu saga'' and ''they are ftl cos i said so'' is not proof. [/B]

They are "much" faster than light by the android saga. I would say top 100's to thousands of times faster.

By the way, planet namek was twice the size of Earth and Krillin didn't know EXACTLY where Grand Namek location was... hell, he was happy when he seen the building. Then they had Dende with them that slowed them down tremendously... Krillin even admits this later on during the arc.

As for your comment on Gotenks... well, nothing was stated that he was giving it his all and the guy took a NAP during all of this. He circled the Earth 5 times in one panel. That is FTL, much faster. Everything else after this really doesn't matter since we have straight up proof that he circled the planet a light speed. It could have taken him a year to reach Buu (even though he never said that he was going his top speed to get to Buu location since he was looking for a fight and probably was trying to conserve energy), he already showed FTL speed before this.

I would also like to add a topic about Frieza "death beams" that he shot from his fingers. Frieza during his initital transformation to his final form shot the fastest blast "before any other fights" in DBZ history (again, anything after this, was faster due to PL increasing). Frieza blast was so fast that even Piccolo... someone that shot FTL blast at the moon was SHOCKED that he couldn't detected the blast... he even stated that he only saw a small light. During this time, this WAS the fastest attack. There really isn't a telling how much faster than light it was since we have on panel light speed attacks being seeable.

The thing about this is, even though it was much FTL, Vegeta was able to see that sh** in slow motion... Goku was able to slap multiple of these blast out of the air.

That again is another sign of FTL reflexes and the thing about this is, the DBZ characters get much more powerful and faster after this along with the speed of their blast.

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, I will post to the rest of your post later but I have one question. How would we know if someone is punching at light speed outside of the character himself TELLING US that he is delivering light speed punches?

Another question... pretty mucch common sense. If Piccolo shot a random blast at the moon that reached it at light speed... do you honestly believe that he would shoot a more powerful blast at Raditz that is much slower than the blast he used to destroy the moon. Then let's not even include the fact that the blast was called LIGHT of death. Again, why would Piccolo shoot light speed attacks and then reference this attack as one of his fastest after Raditz dodge it point blank and it being slower than his attack that destroyed the moon. This is all common sense.

The rest of your post is pointless because if it took Goku 2 days to cross snake way and a Super Saiyan is mulitudes more faster than the Goku that took 2 days to cross snak way, it shouldn't take Goku any time at all to get across that brigde and during the time he reached Namek. Think about this... at a power level of 1000, it took him 170 days, his power level increased to 5000 rnning snake way and it only took him 28 hours... the difference in speed is INSANE with such a small gap in power and the thing about it is, Goku was trying to conserve energy on the way back to Earth. A super Saiyan with a PL of 150000000 should be able to cross snake way instantly with the huge difference in speed vs him doing it the first time at 1000 vs 5000 (which only took 28 hrs).

All of this is common sense... I don't care about your caculations because its wrong and the guy on my scan that I presented was much more clear than you. Hell, if it took Goku at a power level of 5000 to run snake way for some hours, imagine what he can do at 180000, the pl he had when he reached Namek. All of this is common sense.

Take thy time. A character saying his own attack is at x speed or y destruction is hyperbole unless we can prove it or can easily be compared to the rest of a verses confirmed feats.

Do you have a time frame for that? Though little point as its an inconsistent event that contradicts later showings.

PL scaling doesn't work that way. That mean you admit to Saiyan saga Goku not being SoL?

My calculations are wrong because you say so? Thats not how it works. Everything I posted was correct, right down to how long it would take light to reach the distance. This person used a page saying 'half the planet away' when anyone that has read the manga knows that they were only like a mile away.. And this guy is the reliable one? And stop thinking that anything called light instantly makes it Sol.

Originally posted by carver9
They are "much" faster than light by the android saga. I would say top 100's to thousands of times faster.

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, planet namek was twice the size of Earth and Krillin didn't know EXACTLY where Grand Namek location was... hell, he was happy when he seen the building. Then they had Dende with them that slowed them down tremendously... Krillin even admits this later on during the arc.

As for your comment on Gotenks... well, nothing was stated that he was giving it his all and the guy took a NAP during all of this. He circled the Earth 5 times in one panel. That is FTL, much faster. Everything else after this really doesn't matter since we have straight up proof that he circled the planet a light speed. It could have taken him a year to reach Buu (even though he never said that he was going his top speed to get to Buu location since he was looking for a fight and probably was trying to conserve energy), he already showed FTL speed before this.

You're talking about the wrong instance.. and there wasn't even a time frame for him circling the Earth =| Not even the anime shows him moving more then a lap per second.

Originally posted by carver9
I would also like to add a topic about Frieza "death beams" that he shot from his fingers. Frieza during his initital transformation to his final form shot the fastest blast "before any other fights" in DBZ history (again, anything after this, was faster due to PL increasing). Frieza blast was so fast that even Piccolo... someone that shot FTL blast at the moon was SHOCKED that he couldn't detected the blast... he even stated that he only saw a small light. During this time, this WAS the fastest attack. There really isn't a telling how much faster than light it was since we have on panel light speed attacks being seeable.

The thing about this is, even though it was much FTL, Vegeta was able to see that sh** in slow motion... Goku was able to slap multiple of these blast out of the air.

That again is another sign of FTL reflexes and the thing about this is, the DBZ characters get much more powerful and faster after this along with the speed of their blast.

PL scaling doesnt work. Post is faulty as the speed of Piccolo's attack is contradictory to later showings.

All the calcs I did are things we know are true, and you cant deny that any FTL character could have travelled Snake Way or all of Namek in an instant, yet they have all failed to. Ive shown you several instances of characters going full speed and failing to reach SoL, and you ignore this and reply with one-time questionable instances? What you're doing now is ignoring characters at their best not reaching FTL in favour of some instances that may be lightspeed, and you know as well as I do that thats not consistent. In debates if a feat is contradicted by the series or is not consistent then it means nothing.

Full speed Saiyan saga Goku, Namek saga Gohan, Krillen, Piccolo Frieze and Buu saga Gotenks and even Goku have all failed to reach FTL. Id prefer if you didn't use unquantifiable scenes next time.

I respectfully disagree, Bloodrain. There are differences between combat speed and travel speed. Yeah, maybe DBZ character's travel speed are not FTL but I doubt it when it comes to combat speed. There are several proofs that their attacks are light speed. Mutenroshi's kamehameha reached a moon in few second, Picollo's energy beam reached a moon in a sec and their PL are completely dwarfed by Goku in the future.

About travel speed and battle speed, it's not only DBZ. This happens in some manga or anime. Seiya can move FTL but he needs to run from temple to temple in Gold Saint Saga (You know how fast Seiya is). Kenshiro can move much faster than sound but he need to run like a normal man to save Mamiya's village. Even Onime no Kyo need to run from one Goyomon to other goyomon while they can move much faster than sound too (IIRC there's a statement that Kyo is FTL). In DBZ case, Goku is capable to react against Freeza's beam and Cell's kamehameha (Even though he teleports to dodge it. At least he reacted against it).

Besides Roshi's moon bust being one of the basic example of the inconsistencies between DB and DBZ, Piccolo's is between inconsistent and unquantifiable. The only reason people say it took a second is due to it being one panel, then again his more powerful beam took 'longer' to reach a mountain not far in the distance. Even Goku's 4xKamehameha wasn't even able to get into space 'til a short while passed. [IIRC he even hurled a toad faster than Ginyu's transfer beam, and a slow enough throw not to launch the lil' thing into space.]
And notice how normal humans can perceive most of these attacks, even in the Cell saga. If all the beams/blasts were FTL no normal person would be able to see anything.

Unless their reactions and combat speed are 1,000x faster than their movement I really doubt them having FTL combat speed.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Take thy time. A character saying his own attack is at x speed or y destruction is hyperbole unless we can prove it or can easily be compared to the rest of a verses confirmed feats.

Do you have a time frame for that? Though little point as its an inconsistent event that contradicts later showings.

PL scaling doesn't work that way. That mean you admit to Saiyan saga Goku not being SoL?

My calculations are wrong because you say so? Thats not how it works. Everything I posted was correct, right down to how long it would take light to reach the distance. This person used a page saying 'half the planet away' when anyone that has read the manga knows that they were only like a mile away.. And this guy is the reliable one? And stop thinking that anything called light instantly makes it Sol.

Becauuuusssseeee........? Evidence and proof would be nice.

Where'd ya get twice the size anyhow? Cant seem to find it and its missing the point as they didnt need to travel half the planet. Gohan, who has already come and gone from the Elders at full speed would know how long it would take Krillin to get there: 1 hour.

You're talking about the wrong instance.. and there wasn't even a time frame for him circling the Earth =| Not even the anime shows him moving more then a lap per second.

PL scaling doesnt work. Post is faulty as the speed of Piccolo's attack is contradictory to later showings.

All the calcs I did are things we know are true, and you cant deny that any FTL character could have travelled Snake Way or all of Namek in an instant, yet they have all failed to. Ive shown you several instances of characters going full speed and failing to reach SoL, and you ignore this and reply with one-time questionable instances? What you're doing now is ignoring characters at their best not reaching FTL in favour of some instances that may be lightspeed, and you know as well as I do that thats not consistent. In debates if a feat is contradicted by the series or is not consistent then it means nothing.

[b]Full speed Saiyan saga Goku, Namek saga Gohan, Krillen, Piccolo Frieze and Buu saga Gotenks and even Goku have all failed to reach FTL. Id prefer if you didn't use unquantifiable scenes next time. [/B]

Ok, you are clearly lowballing.

Why doesn't PL have anything to do with increase in speed when this has been shown throughout DBZ? Goku with a PL of 350 being to fat for Roshi to detect with a PL of 129. Goku with a PL of 350 being faster than Piccolo with a PL of 300. Goku with a PL of 5000 being faster than Nappa with a PL of 4000. Goku having to use kayoken to match Vegeta speed due to the PL difference. Jeice and Burta with a PL in the 40 to 60k being unable to even lay a glove on Goku with a higher PL. Show me someone with a weaker PL being faster than someone with a higher PL and you MIGHT have an argument. The only example that you can use is the Trunks and Cell fight which was clearly explained on why Trunks was slower. The higher the PL, the faster, more durable, and more powerful you are. This has been shown throughout the series and to ignore this is simply trolling. Goku during the frieza saga should be able to replicate any feat that saiyan saga has done but significantly better.

Bulma stated that planet namek is twice the size of Earth.

Ok, here you go again. If we have Picollo shooting a light speed blast at a moon, why would he slow his attacks down on Raditz. Again, this should be self explainatory. What instances do you have that attacks in DBZ are not light speed attacks? Majority if not "all" are within that range. I already gave you reference that Piccolo... someone that has seen light speed blast fly off being unable to detect Frieza attacks but Vegeta seen them as plain as day and even reacting to the blasts. Goku, well, he slapped them out of the air casually without breaking a sweat.

lol.... so someone with super speed telling us that he is punching at light speed is lying...lol.

So Flash saying that he circled the world 8 times in a second lied to us while he was running. Superman along with other peeps saying that his heat vision is hotter than stars are lying to us? So Hulk saying that the madder he gets, the stronger he gets is lying to us? What was you expecting Tien to do while punching at light, grab a light signal out of the air while punching. He gave us a reference on how fast he was punching in which you should accept jus like you should accept Goku out pacing the solar flare.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Besides Roshi's moon bust being one of the basic example of the inconsistencies between DB and DBZ, Piccolo's is between inconsistent and unquantifiable. The only reason people say it took a second is due to it being one panel, then again his more powerful beam took 'longer' to reach a mountain not far in the distance. Even Goku's 4xKamehameha wasn't even able to get into space 'til a short while passed. [IIRC he even hurled a toad faster than Ginyu's transfer beam, and a slow enough throw not to launch the lil' thing into space.]
And notice how normal humans can perceive most of these attacks, even in the Cell saga. If all the beams/blasts were FTL no normal person would be able to see anything.

Unless their reactions and combat speed are 1,000x faster than their movement I really doubt them having FTL combat speed.

Show us a normal human perceiving a DBZ attack when all in all, they can't even see them fighting.

Show us them perceiving it please.

By the way Bloodrain... even though Goku was unable to fly around at light during the beginning of the Saiyan Saga, I feel that his reflexes were far faster since I do believe that Raditz along with regular Dragonball peeps before the DBZ arc had reflexes faster than light.

I honestly believe that Goku after his training with Kami and PoPo had FTL reflexes and I already gave you an idea on why I think this.

During the Android Saga... anyone that moved at light (hell, I would go as far as to say Frieza during his fight against Goku... along with Black Hair Goku during his fight against Frieza) seen light speed opponents in slow motion (since, well, Vegeta saw Frieza blast which is FTL at slow motion).

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, you are clearly lowballing.

Why doesn't PL have anything to do with increase in speed when this has been shown throughout DBZ? Goku with a PL of 350 being to fat for Roshi to detect with a PL of 129. Goku with a PL of 350 being faster than Piccolo with a PL of 300. Goku with a PL of 5000 being faster than Nappa with a PL of 4000. Goku having to use kayoken to match Vegeta speed due to the PL difference. Jeice and Burta with a PL in the 40 to 60k being unable to even lay a glove on Goku with a higher PL. Show me someone with a weaker PL being faster than someone with a higher PL and you MIGHT have an argument. The only example that you can use is the Trunks and Cell fight which was clearly explained on why Trunks was slower. The higher the PL, the faster, more durable, and more powerful you are. This has been shown throughout the series and to ignore this is simply trolling. Goku during the frieza saga should be able to replicate any feat that saiyan saga has done but significantly better.

Bulma stated that planet namek is twice the size of Earth.

Ok, here you go again. If we have Picollo shooting a light speed blast at a moon, why would he slow his attacks down on Raditz. Again, this should be self explainatory. What instances do you have that attacks in DBZ are not light speed attacks? Majority if not "all" are within that range. I already gave you reference that Piccolo... someone that has seen light speed blast fly off being unable to detect Frieza attacks but Vegeta seen them as plain as day and even reacting to the blasts. Goku, well, he slapped them out of the air casually without breaking a sweat.

lol.... so someone with super speed telling us that he is punching at light speed is lying...lol.

So Flash saying that he circled the world 8 times in a second lied to us while he was running. Superman along with other peeps saying that his heat vision is hotter than stars are lying to us? So Hulk saying that the madder he gets, the stronger he gets is lying to us? What was you expecting Tien to do while punching at light, grab a light signal out of the air while punching. He gave us a reference on how fast he was punching in which you should accept jus like you should accept Goku out pacing the solar flare.

Ill give you an example. A PL10 Goku could react to bullets, that makes PL10 Mach1+, PL20 Mach 2+ etc right? A normal person has a PL of 5, by the PL scaling a normal person must be able to react to things half bullet speed, making normal peak humans supersonic reactions yet we know neither of these are true. This would make Chichi with a PL of 130 Mach 13 when she's only peak human. While there is a correlation it isn't on a set linear path, PL scaling doesn't work. Another way to look at it; PL140~ Goku can move a 300+ ton rock yet a PL5 human can barely move 0.01 tons. Doesn't match up either. Oh and Chichi is an example of someone with a lower PL [137] being slower, weaker and less powerful then a higher PL [Master Shen-120, Tao-110 Even Roshi was only 139]
To ignore calc is trolling too. >_>

Scan? [Little point but may be useful]

Beam thing answered below. First theres no time reference, second the one against Raditz[by using the same method as the moon] took longer to even reach the mountains behind them.

O.o Is this like the first ever time youve heard of hyperbole? C'mon ya set those out too easy: Flash; we know he's FTL beforehand so if he says he can circle the earth 8 times, he can. Remember the confirmed FTL verse he comes from. Supes; key phrase being 'other peeps.' Hulk; we see him getting stronger so... yeah. Difference is that unlike these three no one else comments that he's going at that speed. Hm iirc there was a fighting manga full of normal humans with a moves called 'light-speed jabbing,' does that mean this normal guy can punch at the speed of light? No, its a metaphor as common as 'as fast as lightning.'

To note the for-FTLmovement argument can't be done without ignoring the characters being unable to reach SoL at full speed.

Originally posted by carver9
Show us a normal human perceiving a DBZ attack when all in all, they can't even see them fighting.

Show us them perceiving it please.

Note:
-After Cell did two separate kamehameha's Vegeta and Piccolo had enough time to speak and yell out command before the wave hit the target.
-That during Roshi's wave to launch himself back to the ring the people were watching him move the whole time. During this he would be launching himself back as fast as the beam.. cept he wasn't moving at light speed...

Originally posted by carver9
By the way Bloodrain... even though Goku was unable to fly around at light during the beginning of the Saiyan Saga, I feel that his reflexes were far faster since I do believe that Raditz along with regular Dragonball peeps before the DBZ arc had reflexes faster than light.

I honestly believe that Goku after his training with Kami and PoPo had FTL reflexes and I already gave you an idea on why I think this.

During the Android Saga... anyone that moved at light (hell, I would go as far as to say Frieza during his fight against Goku... along with Black Hair Goku during his fight against Frieza) seen light speed opponents in slow motion (since, well, Vegeta saw Frieza blast which is FTL at slow motion).

If its the lightning thing thats a metaphor. ''Calm as the skies'' ''Quick as lightning'' Are just like ''ran like the wind'' ''Light speed'' ''hard as nails'' ''strong as an ox'' ''powers like a god'' Its simply a metaphor.

The only thing of the whole series to hint to FTL reactions is by saying Piccolo's blast was SoL then saying other moves are faster. The panel doesn't mean it happened in a second.

Being aware that characters pre-saiyan saga can not fly near FTL speeds is another reason why the kamehameha and other beams are slower than light. Reason is that we have characters like Raditz almost out racing Goku's blast. If we admit he's nowhere near FTL [more like Mach 15] then the beam isn't near FTL either.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Ill give you an example. A PL10 Goku could react to bullets, that makes PL10 Mach1+, PL20 Mach 2+ etc right? A normal person has a PL of 5, by the PL scaling a normal person must be able to react to things half bullet speed, making normal peak humans supersonic reactions yet we know neither of these are true. This would make Chichi with a PL of 130 Mach 13 when she's only peak human. While there is a correlation it isn't on a set linear path, PL scaling doesn't work. Another way to look at it; PL140~ Goku can move a 300+ ton rock yet a PL5 human can barely move 0.01 tons. Doesn't match up either. Oh and Chichi is an example of someone with a lower PL [137] being slower, weaker and less powerful then a higher PL [Master Shen-120, Tao-110 Even Roshi was only 139]
To ignore calc is trolling too. >_>

Scan? [Little point but may be useful]

Beam thing answered below. First theres no time reference, second the one against Raditz[by using the same method as the moon] took longer to even reach the mountains behind them.

O.o Is this like the first ever time youve heard of hyperbole? C'mon ya set those out too easy: Flash; we know he's FTL beforehand so if he says he can circle the earth 8 times, he can. Remember the confirmed FTL verse he comes from. Supes; key phrase being 'other peeps.' Hulk; we see him getting stronger so... yeah. Difference is that unlike these three no one else comments that he's going at that speed. Hm iirc there was a fighting manga full of normal humans with a moves called 'light-speed jabbing,' does that mean this normal guy can punch at the speed of light? No, its a metaphor as common as 'as fast as lightning.'

To note the for-FTLmovement argument can't be done without ignoring the characters being unable to reach SoL at full speed.

Not gonna look through the whole thing but off the top of my head theres Bulma and Chichi did with Roshi's wave, the announcer commenting on both Roshi and Goku's, other people when kid Goku was launching them (I remember their reactions to the beam), not sure about people around the Cell games, also the people that were getting attacked by Buu's genocide attack noticed.

Note:
-After Cell did two separate kamehameha's Vegeta and Piccolo had enough time to speak and yell out command before the wave hit the target.
-That during Roshi's wave to launch himself back to the ring the people were watching him move the whole time. During this he would be launching himself back as fast as the beam.. cept he wasn't moving at light speed...

Dude, quit triple posting me @__@ stuff it into one lol. Well at least you admit to them not having FTL movement speeds.

If its the lightning thing thats a metaphor. ''Calm as the skies'' ''Quick as lightning'' Are just like ''ran like the wind'' ''Light speed'' ''hard as nails'' ''strong as an ox'' ''powers like a god'' Its simply a metaphor.

The only thing of the whole series to hint to FTL reactions is by saying Piccolo's blast was SoL then saying other moves are faster. The panel doesn't mean it happened in a second.

Being aware that characters pre-saiyan saga can not fly near FTL speeds is another reason why the kamehameha and other beams are slower than light. Reason is that we have characters like Raditz almost out racing Goku's blast. If we admit he's nowhere near FTL [more like Mach 15] then the beam isn't near FTL either.

Lol... you are reaching Bloodrain.

My bad for triple posting, I think of something to tell you every 30 minutes...lol.

All of your examples about power level not equaling speed failed miserably. Just because a normal human can't react to bullets doesn't mean that Goku with PL of 10 can't. That should just tell you the leap in power after each upgrade power wise. Chi Chi had super speed and super strength so I don't know where you come up with the idea that she was slow. Outside of the Z fighters, she is one of the most powerful beings on the planet. I just don't get your idea of humans vs Z fighters when all in all, that's not a good argument.

Your beam argument wasn't good either. You are using the Anime and in the Anime, everything is slowed down so that we can see it. In the manga/comics, if something happens in one panel then its either instant (like a punch), or its seconds. Picollo destroying a moon happened in seconds, Piccolo most powerful attack is faster than his moon buster. You using Piccolo blast in the Anime isn't helping since everything was slowed for us to see what happened.

People didn't see the Roshi wave and I thought that it was pretty obvious that Z fighter can communicate at super speed which was shown durng the Krillin and Roshi fight, the Cell and Goku fight, and the Frieza and Goku fight. So Vegeta and Piccolo screaming out something while a blast is going off is pretty much within their power. Hell, Cell sucked (no homo) an entire city clean in some seconds before Piccolo and Tien arrived. So he basically had to stab them with his tail, suck, repeat the process.

If someone is clearly saying that their punches is light speed and he is punching someone 20 times with every breath and his arms actually looks as if it has turned to light, I don't see a reason on not believing him. Like I said, Flash speed is based clearly off of statements... no difference than Tiens.

I guess tha means tha Raditz outpaced a ftl beam then.

Wha? Who said a PL10 Goku couldn't dodge a bullet? The point was that increasing their speed based on their PL doesnt work with that being an example. As in PL100 isnt twice as fast as PL50 if we only go by numbers. Chichi wasnt much above the other fodder in the 23rd budokai.

Actually I was refering to the manga, in the same way you decide that it took a second to blast the moon im using that to show how his charged beam was slower. In other words you can get a speed without a time reference.

Check the scans of the Chun vs Krillin match. He launches himself back to the arena with the kamehameha, he'd be launched as fast as the beam itself yet we have people able to keep track of him. Obviously cant be lightspeed if they can keep up.

20 times with every breath isnt impressive and his arms look like a blur.. a common thing for super speed punches. "Hyperboles are exaggerations to create emphasis or effect." Like Naruto's Ameterasu flames being hotter than the Sun but not able to burn someone if a sheet of cloth is in the way. Or theres Vegeta's attack being called Big Bang attack which causes an explosion, doesnt mean he's actually creating a big bang. It, like Tiens, is only a name to emphasise the moves power/speed.

Cept we know that Raditz speed < Saiyan Goku's who is Mach17. Thus the beam was naturally below this speed too. Youve even admited to Saiyan Goku not being able to fly at FTL speeds. Dont jump back on that because it'll lead to their reactions being under FTL too.

Theres only one (very questionable) thing that even hints to FTL with currently six characters that denounce FTL speeds.
With the characters movements (eg Saiyan Goku) not being close to SoL we're assured that the beams arent SoL for being not much faster than these characters.(eg Raditz)
With the beams not being SoL it takes away any hope of the Z fighters reacting to light speed moves.
I can see why youre going back on what you said a moment ago; "even though Goku was unable to fly around at light during the beginning of the Saiyan Saga"