Goku vs. Pyron

Originally posted by TheBadguy
Thats water and he's an alien. plus its not like the dbzverse isn't filled with plotholes.

If your only evidence for Saiya-jins breathing in space is one panel from the manga that shows Bardock above the planet (but still close, he could just be in the upper atmosphere or holding his breath), then all of the evidence against you kind of crushes your case.

Frieza probably told him that to scare him.

Yet he considered it a legitimate tactic (he actually went through with it). If he thought Goku could survive in space like he could, why would he blow up Namek?

Goku can win. He has plenty of techniques that he can use. There are plenty of references to go to that make Goku competition for Pyron

Blah blah blah no substance

He has dealt with energy absorbers

Not on this level. Not to mention the one time he did fight an energy absorber he lost (although that was partly due to the virus)

He has dealt with planet-busters out the yin yang

Not on this level.

He can move at light speed

No he can't, unless you count Shunkan Idou.

and he too can bust planets if he wanted to

Kind of worthless against a guy many times bigger than a planet who can regenerate and let attacks pass through him

but because he loves life he chooses not and for the fact that he values life it makes him stronger and takes him to different levels of power

Blah blah blah "good guys always win" crap. Kenshin Himura "values life" a lot, does that mean he could beat Pyron too?

Not only did he defeat them but he has shown compassion on his enemies

And this is an advantage.... how?

Maybe Pyron can blow up the planet via growing his size, Goku's been against that type too.

No he hasn't.

Goku has been against enemies that were stronger than he was before and has overcome them.

And...? He can't get any more powerups than what he has shown in canon so this is a red herring.

IT is far faster than light and Goku doesn't have to put his fingers on his head, and he doesn't have to wait to use it either. Even in the anime occasionally he used it instantly and without the fingers.

Okay.... where is he going to go? He has to teleport to a ki signature. Even if he finds one and goes to some other planet, then he loses by default because he ran away.

as far as Buu's blast he threw it casually

No he didn't. He threw the first one casually, which Vegeta deflected. He spent a bit of time charging up the second one (the one that actually destroyed the earth).

and while goku and vegeta were in mid speech he took them by total surprise, it was so big they couldn't deflect it in time.

Is that why they had time to have a conversation about it before Buu had even thrown it? Or why Goku directly stated they couldn't block it?

Apparently you have some tree trunk stuck in your ass. Who the hell said anything about combat speed or travel speed? I didn't take a side in who wins this fight, I responded specifically to a statement saying he can't MOVE that way period. I see you are quick to point out combat and travel speed aren't the same when it helps your argument.

It's not travel speed. It's teleportation. Big difference.

Jesus christ I wish people would read. Now I have to wade through all this crap.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If your only evidence for Saiya-jins breathing in space is one panel from the manga that shows Bardock above the planet (but still close, he could just be in the upper atmosphere or holding his breath), then all of the evidence against you kind of crushes your case.

Everything I said was straight from the manga, take up your issues with the anime's dub.

There is no evidence, all the "evidence" is based on the assumption that Freeza said Goku couldn't breathe in space. He didn't. He went out of his way to NOT say they that. King Kai went out of his way to not say that. They both continously refer to Goku not being able to SURVIVE in space, King Kai even says Freeza is the only one who can survive in space. Do you think Freeza's is the only race that can breathe in space? Freeza later survived just like King Kai described, even with no energy, tanking the explosion and being cut in half. Bardock was put into the manga after the anime created him, his appearance in the manga is taken right out of the anime, down to getting killed by the finger blast. He was not near the planet, stop with that reaching, the planet is barely even visible.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yet he considered it a legitimate tactic (he actually went through with it). If he thought Goku could survive in space like he could, why would he blow up Namek?

Of course he couldn't survive in space. There is more to survival than breathing. If it was all about breathing Kai or Freeza would have said those words at least once instead they use the word survival redundantly. A fish can breathe in water but will still die in it without anything to live on.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Okay.... where is he going to go? He has to teleport to a ki signature. Even if he finds one and goes to some other planet, then he loses by default because he ran away.

You should have read what I wrote instead of making assumptions. I already said more than once I have no side in this, I don't care who wins. You are just saying what I said was exactly Freeza's plan. Where is he going to go? He would have been just out in space and ended up dying.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No he didn't. He threw the first one casually, which Vegeta deflected. He spent a bit of time charging up the second one (the one that actually destroyed the earth).

Yes he did. The first one was a planet buster too, it was just small so Vegeta was able to still deflect it even though it took them by surprise. Buu didn't sit there charging it, he raised his hand and threw the blast.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Is that why they had time to have a conversation about it before Buu had even thrown it? Or why Goku directly stated they couldn't block it?

They didn't. and even if they would have so? How many times have we seen fast characters (sometimes not) talk when they shouldn't even be able to be heard or talk too much in a small time frame. Goku and Freeza do enough talking for hours and yet only 5 minutes go by. Goku said it was too big to deflect like they had deflected the small one, not that it was too powerful.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's not travel speed. It's teleportation. Big difference.

...Did you even read what you quoted. I know the difference, once again that post was directed to a specific statement saying Goku couldn't do it period.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
To go a relatively far distance, Goku has to place his fingers on his head. He can't go far without it.

Not really bro, but relatively is always up for interpretation. He uses IT with his fingers on his head to jump a few feet sometimes, other times he does it to go outside our solar system. Sometimes he jumps seeable distances without using his fingers, and sometimes he jumps all over the planet without using his fingers.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
No, his size is a completely usable advantage, and he has shown the ability to make his face as large as the planet Earth's in the OVA, and in the game series he has shown to be able to grow to huge sizes as well.

Animated series is bullshit and f@ggotry, don't you dare bring it up.

In canon, Pyron has only lost after weakening his own power, full power Pyron has never been overcome.

Hehe...

and really......

Originally posted by Kento
To bad IT has nothing to do with battle speed. And yea..to get anywhere not in the immediate area he does need to concentrate and find a place. Hence why he couldn't when Buu destroyed everything.

And yea by real surprise. He charged it up...They stared at it. Then Gokou tried to make a run for it because it was more powerful than they could block. And it's not like it doesn't take a few seconds to go to ssj2 and ssj3. Which they had since they were able to grab Dende, and Mr. Satan. Even Kaioshin and Elder Kaioshin were able to have a small chat before going to save Gokou and them.

Goku used it on Cell when he had to evade his Kamehameha.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Actually, there is hardly any feats of Pyron on wikipedia.

No it is not, anyone can edit wikipedia, and the DBZ wikia even states that it is unlikely Goku can fly at lightspeed, so if you wanna use wiki...Yeah.

They make updates to their encyclopedia and they make it according to what they hear from the producers.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
He has never dealt with anyone with absorption and manipulation of matter and energy on a level like Pyron's.

He could not stop a blast from Buu that at best could destroy the planet 10 times over.

Goku can't move at lightspeed, that is unfounded bullshit. Even Mortal Pyron can fly faster than Goku.

So being compassionate is a feat? Lol.

Pyron can destroy planets by eating them.

Compassion is a great virtue.

Originally posted by DolX1
Goku used it on Cell when he had to evade his Kamehameha.

I notice how you did not actually address a single one of my points.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Actually they did.

Freeza mentioned he could breathe in space, and Goku freaked because he could not, and had to pwn Freeza because of that.

Goku said they would both die if the planet were gone, then Freeza revealed he, would not.

And what Saiyan in canon has done so?

TIMMY!!!!!!!!

...What?

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
...What?

TIMMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by TheBadguy
Jesus christ I wish people would read. Now I have to wade through all this crap.

Everything I said was straight from the manga, take up your issues with the anime's dub.

There is no evidence, all the "evidence" is based on the assumption that Freeza said Goku couldn't breathe in space. He didn't. He went out of his way to NOT say they that. King Kai went out of his way to not say that. They both continously refer to Goku not being able to SURVIVE in space, King Kai even says Freeza is the only one who can survive in space. Do you think Freeza's is the only race that can breathe in space? Freeza later survived just like King Kai described, even with no energy, tanking the explosion and being cut in half. Bardock was put into the manga after the anime created him, his appearance in the manga is taken right out of the anime, down to getting killed by the finger blast. He was not near the planet, stop with that reaching, the planet is barely even visible.

Of course he couldn't survive in space. There is more to survival than breathing. If it was all about breathing Kai or Freeza would have said those words at least once instead they use the word survival redundantly. A fish can breathe in water but will still die in it without anything to live on.

You should have read what I wrote instead of making assumptions. I already said more than once I have no side in this, I don't care who wins. You are just saying what I said was exactly Freeza's plan. Where is he going to go? He would have been just out in space and ended up dying.

Yes he did. The first one was a planet buster too, it was just small so Vegeta was able to still deflect it even though it took them by surprise. Buu didn't sit there charging it, he raised his hand and threw the blast.

They didn't. and even if they would have so? How many times have we seen fast characters (sometimes not) talk when they shouldn't even be able to be heard or talk too much in a small time frame. Goku and Freeza do enough talking for hours and yet only 5 minutes go by. Goku said it was too big to deflect like they had deflected the small one, not that it was too powerful.

...Did you even read what you quoted. I know the difference, once again that post was directed to a specific statement saying Goku couldn't do it period.

Not really bro, but relatively is always up for interpretation. He uses IT with his fingers on his head to jump a few feet sometimes, other times he does it to go outside our solar system. Sometimes he jumps seeable distances without using his fingers, and sometimes he jumps all over the planet without using his fingers.

Good post and the answer to the reason why they were able to talk while they fighting during the five minute time period (frieza and goku) is due to the fact that they can talk at super speed, just like........................flash can also talk at super speed.

That alone is a feat to give me a reason that goku would stomp pyron. He could basically hit pyron with enough planet destroying attacks within a short time period that he wouldnt even knew that the bell had rung.

Goku along with other dragonball characters was demonstrating speed on levels that have yet to be seen by other characters in comics, pyron would be overwhelmed.

Just giving you a heads up, endless mike is a GOOD debater but he is very hard to convince. I gave him thousands of reasons that put goku in the 100 ton range of strength but he threw it out of the window stating that it was speed that made the characters perform such feats.

Originally posted by carver9
Good post and the answer to the reason why they were able to talk while they fighting during the five minute time period (frieza and goku) is due to the fact that they can talk at super speed, just like........................flash can also talk at super speed.

That alone is a feat to give me a reason that goku would stomp pyron. He could basically hit pyron with enough planet destroying attacks within a short time period that he wouldnt even knew that the bell had rung.

Goku along with other dragonball characters was demonstrating speed on levels that have yet to be seen by other characters in comics, pyron would be overwhelmed.

Just giving you a heads up, endless mike is a GOOD debater but he is very hard to convince. I gave him thousands of reasons that put goku in the 100 ton range of strength but he threw it out of the window stating that it was speed that made the characters perform such feats.

Speed and strength goes a long way for Goku.

Originally posted by atv2
Speed and strength goes a long way for Goku.

Too long since he can amp his abilities even during h is base level.

Originally posted by BradBalboa
Well considering the spirit bomb is a techniuque created by Gods pecifically to kill pure evil beings !!1 If Pyron did eat it he would be diggign his own grave !!

Pyron will close his hand and kill Goku.

Pyron is stronger.

He is faster.

IIRC, he has busted far more with much less effort.

He is more durable.

He is bigger(duh).

He is smarter.

He is more versatile.

How does Goku win again?

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Pyron is stronger.

He is faster.

IIRC, he has busted far more with much less effort.

He is more durable.

He is bigger(duh).

He is smarter.

He is more versatile.

How does Goku win again?

Faster: I give a high edge to goku

Durable: well he is a energy based being but goku punches and energy attacks would have a big effect on pyron

Bigger: I agree but giant man is also bigger then goku, to bad that wont make a difference.

Smarter: I agree, goku aint that bright but when it comes to fighting he is the best of the best and is very tacticle.

Versatile: the only thing I'm going to say about this is "hell no", not even close to what goku can do with his energy.

How does goku win: by over powering him.

Originally posted by carver9
Faster: I give a high edge to goku

Durable: well he is a energy based being but goku punches and energy attacks would have a big effect on pyron

Bigger: I agree but giant man is also bigger then goku, to bad that wont make a difference.

Smarter: I agree, goku aint that bright but when it comes to fighting he is the best of the best and is very tacticle.

Versatile: the only thing I'm going to say about this is "hell no", not even close to what goku can do with his energy.

How does goku win: by over powering him.

Durable: Goku's fists and blasts are about the size of...Actually I can't even compare them to Pyron's eyelids, those are bigger than his whole body. Goku's punches hurt Pyron? Pyron who is able to wear the very planet Goku stands on as a ring? Lol. None of Goku's blasts can destroy Pyron...Or even hurt him.

Bigger: Pyron wears planets as rings. Goku can't stop a blast that is able to destroy the world ten times over. You work it out.

Smarter: No he isn't. Hell, Vegeta from the same series is better.

Versatile: O RLY? Pyron can manipulate matter and energy, and doing both allows him to absorb planets. He has telepathy on a massive scale, his telepathy allowed him to influence the entire dimension of Makai, which is probably over a thousand times bigger than Earth and carries trillions of creatures. Pyron can teleport and actually use it in combat effectively, and has an impenetrable shield. He can shapeshift during combat, makes active use of it in fact, and can change his size. By releasing his energies while in a self-weakened mortal form, he was able to separate Bishamon from his armor, which was bonded to him by mind, body and soul. He can manipulate cosmic fire, and his very aura is powerful, able to heat Earth from thousands of miles away. Hell, when he self-weakened himself and landed in the Atlantic Ocean, he destroyed an entire civilization of Darkstalkers. He did this on accident. He is able to create matter. Pyron has Cosmic Awareness enabling him to scan Earth entirely, and even allowed him to forsee Earth's future. His Cosmic Awareness enabled him to see Earth clearly from the other side of the universe. Hell, Pyron's energy blasts are more creative and varied than Goku's, his "Cosmic Disruption" is basically a continuous barrage of teleporting explosions around the opponent, making escape nigh-impossible. If you think Goku is as versatile as Pyron, you are an idiot.

How does Goku win: As anyone who uses any sense of logic and bases their opinions on fact will tell you, he doesn't.

Originally posted by TheBadguy
[B]Jesus christ I wish people would read. Now I have to wade through all this crap.

Everything I said was straight from the manga, take up your issues with the anime's dub.

There is no evidence, all the "evidence" is based on the assumption that Freeza said Goku couldn't breathe in space. He didn't. He went out of his way to NOT say they that. King Kai went out of his way to not say that. They both continously refer to Goku not being able to SURVIVE in space, King Kai even says Freeza is the only one who can survive in space. Do you think Freeza's is the only race that can breathe in space? Freeza later survived just like King Kai described, even with no energy, tanking the explosion and being cut in half. Bardock was put into the manga after the anime created him, his appearance in the manga is taken right out of the anime, down to getting killed by the finger blast. He was not near the planet, stop with that reaching, the planet is barely even visible.

I'm sorry, what?

What's that thing in the lower right corner?

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/457/bardockyl0.gif

Your entire argument is retarded. If you meant he couldn't find food and such in space, then how would that help Frieza? If they were both alive after the planet exploded, Goku would still kill Frieza. But Frieza says that Goku would die if it happened:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3748/gokubreathe2sv7.gif

Bringing Goku back to life at the scene of Namek's destruction would cause him to "just die again":

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1461/gokubreathe3oj1.gif

Even Goku says that he thought he was "dead for sure" until he found the Ginyu force's spaceship that he used to escape:

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/3932/gokubreathe4yz8.gif

And here it shows he has to hold his breath underwater:

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9752/gokubreathe6he4.jpg

He needs air to breathe. GTF over it.

Of course he couldn't survive in space. There is more to survival than breathing. If it was all about breathing Kai or Freeza would have said those words at least once instead they use the word survival redundantly. A fish can breathe in water but will still die in it without anything to live on.

If you're talking about food and water, he would still survive long enough to kill Frieza.

Yes he did. The first one was a planet buster too, it was just small so Vegeta was able to still deflect it even though it took them by surprise. Buu didn't sit there charging it, he raised his hand and threw the blast.

He spent a long enough time for Goku and Vegeta to freak out about it.

They didn't. and even if they would have so? How many
times have we seen fast characters (sometimes not) talk when they shouldn't even be able to be heard or talk too much in a small time frame. Goku and Freeza do enough talking for hours and yet only 5 minutes go by. Goku said it was too big to deflect like they had deflected the small one, not that it was too powerful.

He was charging it when he was raising his hand. And 99% of the Goku vs. Frieza fight in the anime was filler anyway.

...Did you even read what you quoted. I know the difference, once again that post was directed to a specific statement saying Goku couldn't do it period.

Normally teleportation isn't counted for that kind of thing. Or else people would say Nightcrawler is faster than Quicksilver, for example.

Goku used it on Cell when he had to evade his Kamehameha.

And said tactic only worked because Cell gave him time to power up the kamehameha first.

Good post and the answer to the reason why they were able to talk while they fighting during the five minute time period (frieza and goku) is due to the fact that they can talk at super speed, just like........................flash can also talk at super speed.

Except he has the speedforce to justify that... there's no handwavium explanation here.

That alone is a feat to give me a reason that goku would stomp pyron. He could basically hit pyron with enough planet destroying attacks within a short time period that he wouldnt even knew that the bell had rung.

I'd like you to prove he can fire them so quickly without needing to recharge.

Goku along with other dragonball characters was demonstrating speed on levels that have yet to be seen by other characters in comics, pyron would be overwhelmed.

I can name hundreds of characters that could run rings around everyone in DBZ combined. Try actually quantifying their speed.

Just giving you a heads up, endless mike is a GOOD debater but he is very hard to convince. I gave him thousands of reasons that put goku in the 100 ton range of strength but he threw it out of the window stating that it was speed that made the characters perform such feats.

Blatant lie. I accept that he has 100 ton lifting power, just not in base form. I believe he has over 100 tons of striking power in base form and over 100 tons of lifting power in the various SSJ forms.

What's hilarious is that when we last debated I completely owned you and you didn't post any scans or evidence to back up your claims while I did, all you did was make up excuses for why my scans didn't count.

Carver, when I posted my response, I kinda wanted a reply to it. 🙂