Superman vs Silver surfer

Originally posted by UniOmni
In the post you quoted from me, i already admitted that Superman is first among peers in DC.

And lol if you don't think Darkseid's been depowered, unofficially or not. He's simply not the beast he once was, and the way he's written currently is a testament to that.

And his feats from the PC era do count......but when Zero Hour occurred, and it fiddled with the timeline of Legion, who's to say the GDS is even still canon?
And thats where the Mordru beating, Daxamite controlling, pantheon absorbing, Lords of Chaos chumping comes from.

And even PC, Firestorm looped it right back into his face. Though it was retconned later.

All i'm saying is, it's not infallible.

The hammers haven't found a source of energy they couldn't absorb yet, to my knowledge.

And even if Masterson did beat Thanos, it took a powerup from his skyfather father to do so.
I'd rather a superman with an explicit powerup beat Darkseid, than one who merely stops "holding back".

And Thor or BRB don't have to overpower the OE to save their skins.

They merely have to reflect it, something which has been done enough times to make it a viable tactic.

And wow at debating the technicals of the OE.

And great job at proving how superior Darky is to Surfer, when in the crossover he cheapshotted him from behind.

Telling, that is.

Thor/BRB imo can take likely 1-2/10 from Darkseid. That doesn't lessen him imo, since he still takes the vast majority.

When has the OE ever been redirected?

Firestorm redirected it with a construct in one Pre - Crisis comic

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Firestorm redirected it with a construct in one Pre - Crisis comic

That was retconned. Any other instances where the OE was ever Redirected or Deflected?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Firestorm redirected it with a construct in one Pre - Crisis comic

I don't remember this.

I saw the scan once and heard it referenced many times. Where was it retconned?

Also Superman redirected it with his heat vision in Apokolips Now!

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I saw the scan once and heard it referenced many times. Where was it retconned?

Also Superman redirected it with his heat vision in Apokolips Now!

I have to try and find that one. It looked like the OB to me since there were no finder Beams. The OE is ALWAYS preceeded by Finder Beams. The OB is not. The writter could have ****ed up thinking the terms were interchangible.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I saw the scan once and heard it referenced many times. Where was it retconned?

Also Superman redirected it with his heat vision in Apokolips Now!

DC did recently (2005 or 2004) i think, that all previous Ds defeats were due to them being avatars or an imposter.

You can check it on DC if you want.

Superman deflecting it was due to the Source protecting him, Superman cannot be erased, the source has stated it has a special plan for him.

P.S. The OE is from the Source, just as all of DS powers are, or well technically most of them (all but 1).

BW, there is so much theorizing and flat out falsehood in your post, that i'm not even gonna try to correct it.

Because i've tried before, and you keep touting this stuff without fulfilling the burden of proof.

Mehh.

Originally posted by UniOmni
BW, there is so much theorizing and flat out falsehood in your post, that i'm not even gonna try to correct it.

Because i've tried before, and you keep touting this stuff without fulfilling the burden of proof.

Mehh.

I rarely even adress your post anymore, most here know that you are extremely biased against DC.

You state you read Dc, which you may, but do you understand it? I'm going to go with a no, well maybe you do but you do so in a very skewed way.

What I said was all said on panel.

Surfer is just to versatile. To many ways to destroy Sups.

And, it would be impossible, but if Surfer loose, Galactus would go destroy both Sups and Darkseid

Originally posted by UniOmni
In the post you quoted from me, i already admitted that Superman is first among peers in DC.

And lol if you don't think Darkseid's been depowered, unofficially or not. He's simply not the beast he once was, and the way he's written currently is a testament to that.

And his feats from the PC era do count......but when Zero Hour occurred, and it fiddled with the timeline of Legion, who's to say the GDS is even still canon?
And thats where the Mordru beating, Daxamite controlling, pantheon absorbing, Lords of Chaos chumping comes from.

And even PC, Firestorm looped it right back into his face. Though it was retconned later.

All i'm saying is, it's not infallible.

The hammers haven't found a source of energy they couldn't absorb yet, to my knowledge.

And even if Masterson did beat Thanos, it took a powerup from his skyfather father to do so.
I'd rather a superman with an explicit powerup beat Darkseid, than one who merely stops "holding back".

And Thor or BRB don't have to overpower the OE to save their skins.

They merely have to reflect it, something which has been done enough times to make it a viable tactic.

And wow at debating the technicals of the OE.

And great job at proving how superior Darky is to Surfer, when in the crossover he cheapshotted him from behind.

Telling, that is.

Thor/BRB imo can take likely 1-2/10 from Darkseid. That doesn't lessen him imo, since he still takes the vast majority.

Even through all the hate, it’s good you still realize that fact. 🙂

Yeah, uh… where exactly did I say he’s as impressive now as he was back then? I don’t believe I’ve said that. All I’ve said is that none of his feats are off limits… which is a true statement. Everything he's done is fair game. So lol if you think Darkseid is below Thanos.

Um… none of his feats have been retconned. It’s faulty to say that they might be without actual sound proof backing you up. And he has enough Post-Crisis feats to suggest that he’s above Thanos level. I believe it was a Post-Crisis comic that stated without Darkseid, the entire universe would collapse or something like that. And even with a few low showings, D-Side has beaten up Superman all in all about 10 times.

Why would you even bring up a feat that was retconned in the first place? 😕

“Infallible,” as you say, is a matter of perception. Sure… it’s not infallible to the likes of the Spectre or Mr. Mxy. But Thor? Come now… One low showing doesn’t erase all of his monstrous accomplishments with the Omega Effect.

Yeah… and Thor has never encountered something like the Omega Effect, so the door swings both ways.

I don’t remember a specific power up that Odin gave Masterson Thor to fight Thanos.

Wonder Woman didn’t deflect the Omega Effect, but the Omega Beams. That’s STILL some pretty assy writing there too. And Christ Uni, Darkseid isn’t limited to eye beams for f*ck’s sake. There’s a myriad of other ways he could beat the shit out of Thor. You need to stop limiting the spectrum of Darkseid's powers to suit your cause. Shit, he beat the hell out of Validus with a mere wave of his hand.

Yeah, but according to you, Surfer should’ve just absorbed the Omega Beams, or he should’ve just shrugged them off… right? 😂 Instead, Norrin almost died, buddy. Later, the Omega Beams did a pretty good job fending off Galactus too I might add.

Thor couldn’t get a win to save his life. Ignoring Darkseid’s history, even the majority of his Post-Crisis feats, and focusing on a 2-3 year window of feats for him is faulty to say the least. What did it take to ultimately defeat Darkseid in Rock of Ages? It took Orion with a Genesis Box to remake the universe. 😐 If that doesn’t just SCREAM powerful, then I don’t know what does. It’s funny how little credit you give to Darkseid when in reality, he is way above Thanos, Superman, and Thor. So my suggestion to you is this: look at the whole picture, rather than just focusing on a one square inch section of the painting. Darkseid is a monster skyfather… and Thanos is not.

Originally posted by batdude123
Even through all the hate, it’s good you still realize that fact. 🙂

Yeah, uh… where exactly did I say he’s as impressive now as he was back then? I don’t believe I’ve said that. All I’ve said is that none of his feats are off limits… which is a true statement. Everything he's done is fair game. So lol if you think Darkseid is below Thanos.

Um… none of his feats have been retconned. It’s faulty to say that they might be without actual sound proof backing you up. And he has enough Post-Crisis feats to suggest that he’s above Thanos level. I believe it was a Post-Crisis comic that stated without Darkseid, the entire universe would collapse or something like that. And even with a few low showings, D-Side has beaten up Superman all in all about 10 times.

Why would you even bring up a feat that was retconned in the first place? 😕

“Infallible,” as you say, is a matter of perception. Sure… it’s not infallible to the likes of the Spectre or Mr. Mxy. But Thor? Come now… One low showing doesn’t erase all of his monstrous accomplishments with the Omega Effect.

Yeah… and Thor has never encountered something like the Omega Effect, so the door swings both ways.

I don’t remember a specific power up that Odin gave Masterson Thor to fight Thanos.

Wonder Woman didn’t deflect the Omega Effect, but the Omega Beams. That’s STILL some pretty assy writing there too. And Christ Uni, Darkseid isn’t limited to eye beams for f*ck’s sake. There’s a myriad of other ways he could beat the shit out of Thor. You need to stop limiting the spectrum of Darkseid's powers to suit your cause. Shit, he beat the hell out of Validus with a mere wave of his hand.

Yeah, but according to you, Surfer should’ve just absorbed the Omega Beams, or he should’ve just shrugged them off… right? 😂 Instead, Norrin almost died, buddy. Later, the Omega Beams did a pretty good job fending off Galactus too I might add.

Thor couldn’t get a win to save his life. Ignoring Darkseid’s history, even the majority of his Post-Crisis feats, and focusing on a 2-3 year window of feats for him is faulty to say the least. What did it take to ultimately defeat Darkseid in Rock of Ages? It took Orion with a Genesis Box to remake the universe. 😐 If that doesn’t just [B]SCREAM powerful, then I don’t know what does. It’s funny how little credit you give to Darkseid when in reality, he is way above Thanos, Superman, and Thor. So my suggestion to you is this: look at the whole picture, rather than just focusing on a one square inch section of the painting. Darkseid is a monster skyfather… and Thanos is not. [/B]

Monster skyfathers don't get bested by top tier characters. While it may be a low showing, it's still an established feat of Darkseid history that cannot be ignored. His most powerful attack was deflected by a set of eye beams. This imo doesn't scream powerful. 😬

D-Side, as you call him is important to the source and the balance of the universe, true.

But role doesn't equal power, as you're implying.

But what i did say about GDS, was merely that when Parallax fiddled with the timeline, shit was retconned and some wasn't.

I've heard it said as factual evidence, that GDS was retconned in Zero Hour. I'm trying not to say that it definitely happened, until i can verify it myself.
But if it was retconned, of course the feats are no longer valid, unless threadstarter specifies GDS Darkseid.

And the reason why i don't go in depth with powers that Darky has shown, is because they might not be canon any longer, since his best feats all came from GDS. Which may have been retconned, but i'm looking into it.

And no, Norrin wouldn't have absorbed the OE. Darkseid having a bad day, it could've been reflected straight up.

And Darkseid on the forum is a true beastie, surely.
But in comics?

He'd likely be a rival to Thanos.

And what you don't realize, is that low showings affect averages.

Darkseid had three straight low showings, and of course i'm not gonna throw it out as if they never happened.

Once, sure, since it's likely a fluke.
Twice, harder to throw away, but ehh.
Three times? People are sending out a message.

Those three losses, gave him the chink in the armor for other top tier elites to take 1-2/10.

I honestly don't see how you can draw otherwise, unless high end is all that matters to you?

And the best Thor ever looked against Thanos, he had enchanted armor and equipment to give him the edge. A powerup.

Originally posted by His Airness
Monster skyfathers don't get bested by top tier characters. While it may be a low showing, it's still an established feat of Darkseid history that cannot be ignored. His most powerful attack was deflected by a set of eye beams. This imo doesn't scream powerful. 😬

I could easily say that Surfer being knocked out by a brick to the head happened and should not be ignored, or that Thor being KO'd by a shotgun blast to the face happened and shouldn't be ignored. See what I mean?

I remember Odin having serious trouble defeating Absorbing Man as well.

And God can only count how many times Galactus has lost to people below his level.

The majority of Darkseid's OE feats include owning Mordru, Anti-Monitor, and hurting the Spectre.

So if you want to play it that way, then because Surfer was owned by a brick, he's not powerful.

This is flawed logic to the nth degree.

Originally posted by UniOmni
D-Side, as you call him is important to the source and the balance of the universe, true.

But role doesn't equal power, as you're implying.

But what i did say about GDS, was merely that when Parallax fiddled with the timeline, shit was retconned and some wasn't.

I've heard it said as factual evidence, that GDS was retconned in Zero Hour. I'm trying not to say that it definitely happened, until i can verify it myself.
But if it was retconned, of course the feats are no longer valid, unless threadstarter specifies GDS Darkseid.

And the reason why i don't go in depth with powers that Darky has shown, is because they might not be canon any longer, since his best feats all came from GDS. Which may have been retconned, but i'm looking into it.

And no, Norrin wouldn't have absorbed the OE. Darkseid having a bad day, it could've been reflected straight up.

And Darkseid on the forum is a true beastie, surely.
But in comics?

He'd likely be a rival to Thanos.

And what you don't realize, is that low showings affect averages.

Darkseid had three straight low showings, and of course i'm not gonna throw it out as if they never happened.

Once, sure, since it's likely a fluke.
Twice, harder to throw away, but ehh.
Three times? People are sending out a message.

Those three losses, gave him the chink in the armor for other top tier elites to take 1-2/10.

I honestly don't see how you can draw otherwise, unless high end is all that matters to you?

And the best Thor ever looked against Thanos, he had enchanted armor and equipment to give him the edge. A powerup.

It was never Big Evil that got bested.

Originally posted by batdude123
I could easily say that Surfer being knocked out by a brick to the head happened and should not be ignored, or that Thor being KO'd by a shotgun blast to the face happened and shouldn't be ignored. See what I mean?

I remember Odin having serious trouble defeating Absorbing Man as well.

The majority of Darkseid's OE feats include owning Mordru, Anti-Monitor, and hurting the Spectre.

So if you want to play it that way, then because Surfer was owned by a brick, he's not powerful.

This is flawed logic to the nth degree.

If Surfer and Thor were consistently shown being incapacitated by such measly attacks than it would surely be brought up in debates to discredit their ability and or show their fall in power. The same logic can be applied to Darkseid and his loses to top tier characters. As of late his showings against top tier characters have not been the showings of a monster skyfather.

That comic also made it blatantly clear that Odin allowed Creel to last so long, as he wished to see the outcome of he and Loki's plan.

Which means what?

I would agree with you if this was how Surfer was consistently portrayed.

As much so as ignoring feats as they make a character not seem as powerful as you wish him to be?

Originally posted by UniOmni
D-Side, as you call him is important to the source and the balance of the universe, true.

But role doesn't equal power, as you're implying.

But what i did say about GDS, was merely that when Parallax fiddled with the timeline, shit was retconned and some wasn't.

I've heard it said as factual evidence, that GDS was retconned in Zero Hour. I'm trying not to say that it definitely happened, until i can verify it myself.
But if it was retconned, of course the feats are no longer valid, unless threadstarter specifies GDS Darkseid.

And the reason why i don't go in depth with powers that Darky has shown, is because they might not be canon any longer, since his best feats all came from GDS. Which may have been retconned, but i'm looking into it.

And no, Norrin wouldn't have absorbed the OE. Darkseid having a bad day, it could've been reflected straight up.

And Darkseid on the forum is a true beastie, surely.
But in comics?

He'd likely be a rival to Thanos.

And what you don't realize, is that low showings affect averages.

Darkseid had three straight low showings, and of course i'm not gonna throw it out as if they never happened.

Once, sure, since it's likely a fluke.
Twice, harder to throw away, but ehh.
Three times? People are sending out a message.

Those three losses, gave him the chink in the armor for other top tier elites to take 1-2/10.

I honestly don't see how you can draw otherwise, unless high end is all that matters to you?

And the best Thor ever looked against Thanos, he had enchanted armor and equipment to give him the edge. A powerup.

Great Darkness Saga is five issues long. Even if it was retconned, Darkseid has tons and tons of impressive feats that put him up there.

I don't focus on high end feats as much as you'd think, I just don't go by the low showings as a way to bring him down. Which is exactly what you do.

The majority of his feats include beating high tier skyfathers and pantheons of Gods... not getting jobbed out by Superman.

That doesn't hamper his average to where high tiers can get 2/10 wins on him. What a silly statement.

Superman has only flat out beat Darkseid in AN, and even that might be a retcon. In Rock of Ages, Metron stated that Darkseid was imprisoned in the Source Wall right next to the Promethean Giants. It's never been stated that he's escaped it. So, it's a strong possibility that they've been avatars who have fought Superman.

Regardless, Darkseid is still top tier skyfather whether you want to admit it, hater.

Originally posted by His Airness
If Surfer and Thor were consistently shown being incapacitated by such measly attacks than it would surely be brought up in debates to discredit their ability and or show their fall in power. The same logic can be applied to Darkseid and his loses to top tier characters. As of late his showings against top tier characters have not been the showings of a monster skyfather.

Darkseid doesn't consistently get beaten by top tiers either, so what exactly is your point? He thrashes them with the upmost of ease.

And by top tiers, do you mean Superman?

Because that isn't a consistent feat for him. If it was, Darkseid's track record against Superman wouldn't include around 10 wins over him.

Originally posted by His Airness
That comic also made it blatantly clear that Odin allowed Creel to last so long, as he wished to see the outcome of he and Loki's plan.

What it made "blatantly clear" was that Odin couldn't defeat Creel without teleporting him away.

Originally posted by His Airness
Which means what?

😕 🤨

Which means that his low feats aren't as "consistent" as you think.

His "consistent" feats are one's in which he humbles skyfather level characters.

What you're saying is complete and utter bullshit.

Originally posted by His Airness
I would agree with you if this was how Surfer was consistently portrayed.

Thor has had trouble with Mongoose, Spider-man, and Daredevil before.

I guess he really isn't that powerful either.

Originally posted by His Airness
As much so as ignoring feats as they make a character not seem as powerful as you wish him to be?

I don't ignore those showings. I take them with a grain of salt, which is exactly how it should be.

Originally posted by batdude123
Darkseid doesn't consistently get beaten by top tiers either, so what exactly is your point? He thrashes them with the upmost of ease.

And by top tier[B]s, do you mean Superman?

Because that isn't a consistent feat for him. If it was, Darkseid's track record against Superman wouldn't include around 10 wins over him.

What it made "blatantly clear" was that Odin couldn't defeat Creel without teleporting him away.

😕 🤨

Which means that his low feats aren't as "consistent" as you think.

His "consistent" feats are one's in which he humbles skyfather level characters.

What you're saying is complete and utter bullshit.

Thor has had trouble with Mongoose, Spider-man, and Daredevil before.

I guess he really isn't that powerful either.

I don't ignore those showings. I take them with a grain of salt, which is exactly how it should be. [/B]

With ease you mean being blinded by heat vision?

Yes

As of late it has been fairly consistent. Yes in the past DS has completely dominated Superman, but currently that isn't how their battles have been going. IMO it seems that DC has been making an attempt to send us a message.

If that's how you interpreted the comic then so be it. However the comic specifically stated Odin could have easily rid himself of the nuisance at any time in the comic.

Imo that may be the case, however in mine it isn't.

Most of the time DS is "humbling" skyfathers it's from what they've heard of him or simply respect. With the exception of a few other new gods DS rarely engages skyfather in strait up battle. Example him having to increase his power to attack Asgard.

Trivial and irrelevant as Thor has nothing to do with your claims of DS being a monster skyfather.

Until your in a debate where Superman is pitted against another top tier in which you will then claim that because Superman has done so well against DS that he should be able to best this other character.

Originally posted by His Airness
With ease you mean being blinded by heat vision?

What you really don't seem to get is that that is a 1 in a 1000 showing for him.

He's defeated teams of top tier characters more often than Thanos has.

Saying he has trouble with top tiers is a misleading statement because it's just Superman. So that's just some more bullshit there, Airness.

And even Thanos has been knocked around by Masterson Thor, been staggered by Spider-man, and has been stabbed by Wolverine.

Originally posted by His Airness
As of late it has been fairly consistent. Yes in the past DS has completely dominated Superman, but currently that isn't how their battles have been going. IMO it seems that DC has been making an attempt to send us a message.

The only time Superman has beaten Darkseid without outside circumstances is in Apokalips Now.

That hardly negates his other showings where he's pwning Anti Monitor, Validus, Mordru, Dr. Fate, Highfather, etc.

And there's a strong indication that the Darkseid who fought Superman in Apokalips Now was nothing more than an Avatar.

Originally posted by His Airness
If that's how you interpreted the comic then so be it. However the comic specifically stated Odin could have easily rid himself of the nuisance at any time in the comic.

"Rid" himself of Creel by teleporting him away. Which is what he did.

He was having A LOT of trouble trying to defeat him by other means.

Originally posted by His Airness
Most of the time DS is "humbling" skyfathers it's from what they've heard of him or simply respect. With the exception of a few other new gods DS rarely engages skyfather in strait up battle. Example him having to increase his power to attack Asgard.

He's completely massacred Highfather before in straight up combat.

And in linear feats, he's also shown power above Asgardian gods.

He destroyed the Source Wall, and Odin along with the other gods that were with him couldn't do it even when the wall was weakened.

Originally posted by His Airness
Trivial and irrelevant as Thor has nothing to do with your claims of DS being a monster skyfather.

Indeed, however your logic can easily be applied to other characters such as Thor.

So, I guess Thor isn't the monster everyone thinks he is.

It's bogus to think of Darkseid as a whipping boy just because of a low showing.

Originally posted by His Airness
Until your in a debate where Superman is pitted against another top tier in which you will then claim that because Superman has done so well against DS that he should be able to best this other character.

Yeah, I never use Superman beating Darkseid as a reference to him being above the other character he's fighting, so try again.