Not saying he would win for sure, but it isn't just raw power. Silver Surfer's power is so versatile... it doesn't have a bearing on this fight but some feats are really unique like creating world peace on Earth for a time. And he can easily detect Superman's weaknesses, so that isn't really a plot device (think sucking the gamma radiation out of the incredible Hulk).
Silver Surfer would use some creative solution, but that's part of his MO, not a corny plot device.
Originally posted by seaappleThere are some things that would work against surfer. Superman can absorb more power, faster, and without injury. Surfer gets coo coo over one star. So what's stopping superman from Simply absorbing an entire star and overloading surfer? Superman is the king of outlandish wins.
Not saying he would win for sure, but it isn't just raw power. Silver Surfer's power is so versatile... it doesn't have a bearing on this fight but some feats are really unique like creating world peace on Earth for a time. And he can easily detect Superman's weaknesses, so that isn't really a plot device (think sucking the gamma radiation out of the incredible Hulk).Silver Surfer would use some creative solution, but that's part of his MO, not a corny plot device.
Originally posted by seaapple
Not saying he would win for sure, but it isn't just raw power. Silver Surfer's power is so versatile... it doesn't have a bearing on this fight but some feats are really unique like creating world peace on Earth for a time. And he can easily detect Superman's weaknesses, so that isn't really a plot device (think sucking the gamma radiation out of the incredible Hulk).Silver Surfer would use some creative solution, but that's part of his MO, not a corny plot device.
i agree surfer would beat current supes due to versatility, but he in not more powerful than supes is
I don't think there's anything to stop Superman from using some feat like that. He could certainly win.
Basically that is a reason why this type of debate goes on and on. These are two top tier characters with different types of incredible feats. I actually do not know much about all these different versions of Superman, but I know a lot about Silver Surfer and the level of battles he has won. I am just mentioning that despite the raw power issue you raise it is not cut and dry for Superman. And I am personally partial to versatility (as in GL vs. Superman) over pure power.
Originally posted by seaapple
I don't think there's anything to stop Superman from using some feat like that. He could certainly win.Basically that is a reason why this type of debate goes on and on. These are two top tier characters with different types of incredible feats. I actually do not know much about all these different versions of Superman, but I know a lot about Silver Surfer and the level of battles he has won. I am just mentioning that despite the raw power issue you raise it is not cut and dry for Superman. And I am personally partial to versatility (as in GL vs. Superman) over pure power.
If versatility were all it took, then Martian Manhunter, Sersi, Metamorpho, Maxima, Black Bolt, and every GL and Herald that exist would be the top tiered characters in comics.
Obviously, but Silver Surfer has the Power Cosmic + versatility + the intellect and experience to use both.
We are talking about two characters that are both very powerful. If I had to slay someone I would prefer more poisons than just one. But it's pretty clear that we aren't going to use mouse killing level poison on an elephant.
You may think that Superman is an elephant compared to the Surfer as a mouse, I do not. And I think the level of debate about this point indicates that it is arguable.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
If versatility were all it took, then Martian Manhunter, Sersi, Metamorpho, Maxima, Black Bolt, and every GL and Herald that exist would be the top tiered characters in comics.
Originally posted by seaapple
Obviously, but Silver Surfer has the Power Cosmic + versatility + the intellect and experience to use both.We are talking about two characters that are both very powerful. If I had to slay someone I would prefer more poisons than just one. But it's pretty clear that we aren't going to use mouse killing level poison on an elephant.
You may think that Superman is an elephant compared to the Surfer as a mouse, I do not. And I think the level of debate about this point indicates that it is arguable.
no one is saying currents supes is that far beyond the surfer, just simply when it comes to pure power superman has him covered
Originally posted by darthgoober
Again...THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID(and are now standing by). What YOU said was..I already showed that Surfer's combat speed and reflexes DON'T suck because people with nanosecond reaction times are pretty impressive in the speed department.
As for Darkseid...BULLSHIT. I've never seen ANY definitive proof that he's as fast as you claim, and I followed your match with quan so don't just try to point me to the thread because I've seen and read all of it, and you proved no such thing at any point in time.
You haven't even proven that SS has nanosecond reaction times.
Originally posted by Kurash
no one is saying currents supes is that far beyond the surfer, just simply when it comes to pure power superman has him covered
The way I see it comes down to this:
PC superman has more raw power than surfer. No one's debating this.
Their speed is equal. both are so fast to the point where it's meaningless. Both can hit speeds of millions of light years in seconds, and react instantaneously. Neither one is going to be blitzing the other.
Surfer unfortunately has the better defense. Surfer has no weaknesses that Superman is able to take advantage of. I haven't yet seen scans of PC superman hitting a phased object, so until he does it doesn't really MATTER if you can throw planet busting punches if they can't connect.
PC Superman also has some crippling weaknesses that Surfer is almost tailor made to exploit. He's even MORE vulnerable than current superman, since Gold kryptonite doesn't exist in current continuity. Red Solar energy can weaken supes, Red Kryptonite mutates him uncontrollably, and Green can kill him, but Gold K means permanently depowered instantly. This is bad news if surfer makes use of it, and Cosmic Awareness means he knows about it in microseconds.
What can PC superman do if surfer turns the arena/the air/supes' costume into gold K? not a whole hell of a lot.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
The way I see it comes down to this:PC superman has more raw power than surfer. No one's debating this.
Their speed is equal. both are so fast to the point where it's meaningless. Both can hit speeds of millions of light years in seconds, and react instantaneously. Neither one is going to be blitzing the other.
Surfer unfortunately has the better defense. Surfer has no weaknesses that Superman is able to take advantage of. I haven't yet seen scans of PC superman hitting a phased object, so until he does it doesn't really MATTER if you can throw planet busting punches if they can't connect.
PC Superman also has some crippling weaknesses that Surfer is almost tailor made to exploit. He's even MORE vulnerable than current superman, since Gold kryptonite doesn't exist in current continuity. Red Solar energy can weaken supes, Red Kryptonite mutates him uncontrollably, and Green can kill him, but Gold K means permanently depowered instantly. This is bad news if surfer makes use of it, and Cosmic Awareness means he knows about it in microseconds.
What can PC superman do if surfer turns the arena/the air/supes' costume into gold K? not a whole hell of a lot.
Actually PC superman is so far faster than surfer it isn't even funny. And if you think Surfer actually is going to be alive after the first few pico seconds, I'd like to see how.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Actually PC superman is so far faster than surfer it isn't even funny. And if you think Surfer actually is going to be alive after the first few pico seconds, I'd like to see how.
Superman is not substantially faster than surfer is, and has no way to hit phased objects.
Surfer can also shrink himself down to submicroscopic size and avoid superman that way. (not that he would, since phasing is easier and makes more sense.)
which action do you think takes longer to execute? Launching an attack against an opponent from X distance? or simply thinking "phase?"
Originally posted by Space M ummy
Superman is not substantially faster than surfer is, and has no way to hit phased objects.Surfer can also shrink himself down to submicroscopic size and avoid superman that way. (not that he would, since phasing is easier and makes more sense.)
which action do you think takes longer to execute? Launching an attack against an opponent from X distance? or simply thinking "phase?"
Superman has hit intangible objects by vibrating to match thier frequency. where you been?
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Superman has hit intangible objects by vibrating to match thier frequency. where you been?
surfer isn't "vibrating at a frequency" to phase, and you have no proof that this is the technique he's using. There's more than one way to phase, and the technique that flash uses isn't the technique that shadowcat uses, which isn't the technique that vision uses, etc.
Seeing as how surfer can cross dimensions at will and manipulate matter, it's far more likely he's shifting his body into another plane. But until you have a scan of something hitting surfer while phased this way, you don't have a leg to stand on in assuming superman can do so.
Nice try though.
Pc Superman can fly to the end of the universe in seconds....that has to be the fastest speed feat, in any fictional story.
Flying to the end of the universe implies that the universe HAS an end and isnt truly infinite. this is more a flaw in the universe superman happens to be in than a speed feat. 😛
Originally posted by Space M ummy
surfer isn't "vibrating at a frequency" to phase, and you have no proof that this is the technique he's using. There's more than one way to phase, and the technique that flash uses isn't the technique that shadowcat uses, which isn't the technique that vision uses, etc.Seeing as how surfer can cross dimensions at will and manipulate matter, it's far more likely he's shifting his body into another plane. But until you have a scan of something hitting surfer while phased this way, you don't have a leg to stand on in assuming superman can do so.
Nice try though.
Flying to the end of the universe implies that the universe HAS an end and isnt truly infinite. this is more a flaw in the universe superman happens to be in than a speed feat. 😛
Superman flew so fast, that he created a boom tube to the source wall. Try and come up with ANYTHING that surfer has done that compares to that speed feat. next. As far as Surfer phasing out of the dimension, that would be self bfr and he'd forfiet the match, if that is how he phases.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Superman flew so fast, that he created a boom tube to the source wall. Try and come up with ANYTHING that surfer has done that compares to that speed feat. next. As far as Surfer phasing out of the dimension, that would be self bfr and he'd forfiet the match, if that is how he phases.
It's not "self bfr" if it's controllable. BFR implies a removal one can't recover from. if surfer is shifting half in/half out of the dimension (plausible, given his powers) and can shift back at any time, it's not a bfr.
If he's say...permanently hurled 10 years into the future and CANT GET BACK (like say captain atom does when absorbing too much power) then THAT'S a "self BFR."
Isn't a "boom tube" a method of teleportation/space manipulation like hyperspace? so you're saying superman flew so fast he teleported/bended space like the surfer does ALL THE TIME?
wow, that's impressive.
but as I said- the DC universe seems to have the source wall as it's "boundary." it might be far as hell, but it's there. 616 has no such limit, so it's literally impossible for surfer to duplicate that feat since the marvel universe is not structured that way.
to put it another way, PC superman could not "go so fast he reaches the source wall" in the marvel multiverse because the source wall (or equivalent) does not exist there. He would simply enter hyperspace and keep going, exactly as surfer does. That particular feat was an example of the limits of the DC universe, and is only repeatable there.