Superman vs Silver surfer

Originally posted by Space M ummy
It's not "self bfr" if it's controllable. BFR implies a removal one can't recover from. if surfer is shifting half in/half out of the dimension (plausible, given his powers) and can shift back at any time, it's not a bfr.

If he's say...permanently hurled 10 years into the future and CANT GET BACK (like say captain atom does when absorbing too much power) then THAT'S a "self BFR."

Isn't a "boom tube" a method of teleportation/space manipulation like hyperspace? so you're saying superman flew so fast he teleported/bended space like the surfer does [b]ALL THE TIME?
wow, that's impressive.

but as I said- the DC universe seems to have the source wall as it's "boundary." it might be far as hell, but it's there. 616 has no such limit, so it's literally impossible for surfer to duplicate that feat since the marvel universe is not structured that way.

to put it another way, PC superman could not "go so fast he reaches the source wall" in the marvel multiverse because the source wall (or equivalent) does not exist there. That particular feat was an example of the limits of the DC universe, and is only repeatable there. [/B]

The source wall is in was in another reality altogether then. It's only become the seperation for the universes since 52.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The source wall is in was in another reality altogether then. It's only become the seperation for the universes since 52.

I hate to use wikipedia, but I don't really have another source to quote from.

The Source Wall is a fictional structure in the DC Comics universe. The wall lies on the edge of the known universe, in the Promethean Galaxy. Beyond the wall lies what is known as The Source, a cosmic essence or being that is the "source" of all that exists. The wall is theoretically passable. However, all those who try have been inevitably trapped in it. Over time it has been made up of the bodies of would-be conquerors and curious seekers from all across the universe.

That quote seems to indicate that PLENTY of people who aren't speedsters have hit the source wall, and it has a definitive location. If it's in a completely different reality altogether that requires incredible speed feats to hit, then how did so many people reach it, and get stuck in it?

edit:

In Countdown, it is revealed the 52 universes are each surrounded by a source wall, with the Bleed between the source walls of the various universes. The Monitors refer to an impending disaster if they don't act to stop travel between the 52 universes, and in issue #38 of Countdown, they finally reveal that each time a being passes between universes, they break a little of each universes' source wall. If a source wall is breached too many times, it will collapse and lead to the chaos and destruction of its universe.

so..there are multiple source walls, all acting as universal boundaries.
again, a limitation of DC that would not be possible in 616 or any other universe.

If there's a scan that says otherwise, please post it.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
I hate to use wikipedia, but I don't really have another source to quote from.

That quote seems to indicate that PLENTY of people who aren't speedsters have hit the source wall, and it has a definitive location. If it's in a completely different reality altogether that requires incredible speed feats to hit, then how did so many people reach it, and get stuck in it?

edit:

so..there are multiple source walls, all acting as universal boundaries.
again, a limitation of DC that would not be possible in 616 or any other universe.

If there's a scan that says otherwise, please post it.

At the time of the feet, the source wall was at an unimaginable destination so far that you had to have uber speed to get to it or some kind of uber travel device like the mobious chair. everyoen on the source wall are Old Gods. GODS.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
At the time of the feet, the source wall was at an unimaginable destination so far that you had to have uber speed to get to it or some kind of uber travel device like the mobious chair. everyoen on the source wall are Old Gods. GODS.

a mobius chair..or a cosmically powered board that enters hyperspace, and allows free travel between dimensions and across time? Sure, Surfer has one of those. Keep in mind the board has it's own power supply and costs the surfer ZERO effort to use this way. Can superman say the same? Can he travel millions of light years without spending any of his own energy?

The point is, that the source wall has a definitive location. it might be far, but how far? thousands of light years? millions? It DOESNT SAY. it could be either, or none. DC didn't bother to specify. surfer can do both in seconds and has.

He's also shown himself to be able to enter hyperspace to travel interstellar distances, the limits of which have not been set by marvel. Hyperspace for all intents and purposes functions EXACTLY like a boom tube, which is what superman used to reach the source wall.

That feat is nothing beyond surfer's abilities.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
a mobius chair..or a cosmically powered board that enters hyperspace, and allows free travel between dimensions and across time? Sure, Surfer has one of those. Keep in mind the board has it's own power supply and costs the surfer ZERO effort to use this way. Can superman say the same? Can he travel millions of light years without spending any of his own energy?

The point is, that the source wall has a definitive location. it might be far, but how far? thousands of light years? millions? It DOESNT SAY. it could be either, or none. DC didn't bother to specify. surfer can do both in seconds and has.

He's also shown himself to be able to enter hyperspace to travel interstellar distances, the limits of which have not been set by marvel. Hyperspace for all intents and purposes functions EXACTLY like a boom tube, which is what superman used to reach the source wall.

That feat is nothing beyond surfer's abilities.

Since when did you think hyperspace and a boomtube function the same way? you obviously don't know much about the new gods mythos.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Since when did you think hyperspace and a boomtube function the same way? you obviously don't know much about the new gods mythos.

you're arguing in circles. this argument isn't about "the new gods mythos."

The point is that the source wall feat is irrelevant. Let's put it this way. Forget superman. forget the surfer. It's just me. and you.

I'm going to bet I'm faster than you, and I can prove it. I have a solid gold wall in my house. I can go SO FAST i can touch it. It doesn't matter how far away from me it is. It could be five feet. it could be five hundred feet. I could be living in a house ten miles long, and it could be at the other end. I'm not going to tell you though.

Can YOU go so fast you can touch my gold wall from where you are? No? then you must be slower than me. What your own house is composed of, or even if it HAS walls is irrelevant. no matter how fast you go, you can't go fast enough to touch my gold wall as fast as I can.

See where I'm going with this? The gold wall is something only *I* can touch, because it exists here, and not where you are. There's no way for you to replicate that feat, because it's a limitation specific to where *I* am, and not where YOU are. It's not a speed feat. you can't compare the speeds of two different people in two different houses by measuring how fast one of them can touch an object that only exists in his location.

Don't people get tired of aruing this jazz over and over and over?

Originally posted by Blight
Don't people get tired of aruing this jazz over and over and over?

If we did, what would we be doing here? this entire board is about pointless theoretical arguments. 😂

So is that a no?

I thought this thread was dead.

As I've said before, I simply do not undesrstand how the Silver Surfer could reasonably and logically lose to Superman.

As for speed, Surfer is able to evaluate a situation, formulate a plan, and execute that plan within a fraction of a nanosecond.

Originally posted by Blight
Don't people get tired of aruing this jazz over and over and over?

That's why I'm almost never here, and I refuse to get into heated debates.

People will believe what they want to, regardless of your earnest efforts.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
you're arguing in circles. this argument isn't about "the new gods mythos."

The point is that the source wall feat is irrelevant. Let's put it this way. Forget superman. forget the surfer. It's just me. and you.

I'm going to bet I'm faster than you, and I can prove it. I have a solid gold wall in my house. I can go SO FAST i can touch it. It doesn't matter how far away from me it is. It could be five feet. it could be five hundred feet. I could be living in a house ten miles long, and it could be at the other end. I'm not going to tell you though.

Can YOU go so fast you can touch my gold wall from where you are? No? then you must be slower than me. What your own house is composed of, or even if it HAS walls is irrelevant. no matter how fast you go, you can't go fast enough to touch my gold wall as fast as I can.

See where I'm going with this? The gold wall is something only *I* can touch, because it exists here, and not where you are. There's no way for you to replicate that feat, because it's a limitation specific to where *I* am, and not where YOU are. It's not a speed feat. you can't compare the speeds of two different people in two different houses by measuring how fast one of them can touch an object that only exists in his location.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I thought this thrad was dead?

As I've said before, I simply do not undesrstand how the Silver Surfer could reasonably and logically lose to Superman.

As for speed, Surfer is able to evaluate a situation, formulate a plan, and execute that plan within a fraction of a nanosecond.

PC superman also has ridiculous speed feats. If anything was going to settle it, pure speed would not be it.

It basically comes down to surfer having a defensive capability (or two) superman doesn't really have an ability to counter, and superman having exploitable weaknesses that evens this out.

If kryptonite/cosmic awareness/red solar radiation didn't exist and it just came down to who can punch and blast harder, superman would win by a mile. This isn't the case though.

You have a ****ing gold wall in your house?!?!!?

You mean you haven't found the one in YOUR house yet??? You just must not be fast enough to reach it like I am. it clearly has nothing to do with your house not having gold walls, and everything to do with me being faster than you. 😄

Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
You have a f[b]ucking gold wall in your house?!?!!? [/B]

Originally posted by Space M ummy
PC superman also has ridiculous speed feats. If anything was going to settle it, pure speed would not be it.

It basically comes down to surfer having a defensive capability (or two) superman doesn't really have an ability to counter, and superman having exploitable weaknesses that evens this out.

If kryptonite/cosmic awareness/red solar radiation didn't exist and it just came down to who can punch and blast harder, superman would win by a mile. This isn't the case though.

You mean you haven't found the one in YOUR house yet??? You just must not be fast enough to reach it like I am. it clearly has nothing to do with your house not having gold walls, and everything to do with me being faster than you. 😄

Regardless, Surfer has feats such as existing outside of space-time, and with his ability to become intangible, he doesn't even have to let Superman touch him, at all.

So he doesn't have to worry about eating to many punches.

Even without the radiation weaknesses, I like Surfer's chances.

Originally posted by nvrbeenarealman
Your still here? LMAO. As if anyone takes you seriously or cares about your trollish ways. LMAO 😆 😆 😆

Since when has Anyone that matters traken yoy seriously, son?

Darkseid is a lying piece of trash, just like his pathetic fanboy leather skirt fetishist worshippers. 😂 😆 😆

For the record, most of PC Superman's feats are so ludicrously illogical (and not the good kind of illogical,) it's impractical to apply them to a logical situation, (like a fight.)

In that day, comics were written for children, who didn't know much about the world around them. PC Superman should be treated as such. He's almost like Bugs Bunny.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Like blocking bullets, right? 😛

nah, he's way faster than that. scans are in the thread somewhere. any character who's travelling interstellar distances (without teleporting, mind you) pretty much has to be way over light speed.

Regardless, Surfer has feats such as existing outside of space-time, and with his ability to become intangible, he doesn't even have to let Superman touch him, at all.

This is what I was getting at by having "a defensive ability superman will have a hard time with." The surfer could very easily start the fight by phasing (remember: common knowledge rules state that SS knows Superman is a high level speedster with the ability and means to blitz) use a couple microseconds to scan for weaknesses via PC, then transform the air into gold K and depower superman instantly, ending the fight in about 5 seconds.

not that he would do this every time, or by default (he might try something else that may not work as well) but it's certainly possible.

Even without the radiation weaknesses, I like Surfer's chances. [/B]

So do I. I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this thread or not (too lazy to check) but one of my favorite JLA storylines is one where the Atom shrunk to the size of a photon, entered darkseid's body via riding on a beam of light (reasoning that if darkseid could SEE his opponents, then light MUST be able to get in) went through his retinas into his brain and simply fried his brain from the inside and killed him.

Guess what surfer's able to do also?

If this worked on freaking DARKSEID, it's sure as hell a valid tactic to use on superman.

Still, this implies a lot of strategy on surfer's part and there's no guarantee he'll be this clever, or have the inclination to kill.

even split is reasonable.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
nah, he's way faster than that. scans are in the thread somewhere. any character who's travelling interstellar distances (without teleporting, mind you) pretty much has to be way over light speed.

This is what I was getting at by having "a defensive ability superman will have a hard time with." The surfer could very easily start the fight by phasing (remember: common knowledge rules state that SS knows Superman is a high level speedster with the ability and means to blitz) use a couple microseconds to scan for weaknesses via PC, then transform the air into gold K and depower superman instantly, ending the fight in about 5 seconds.

not that he would do this every time, or by default (he might try something else that may not work as well) but it's certainly possible.

So do I. I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this thread or not (too lazy to check) but one of my favorite JLA storylines is one where the Atom shrunk to the size of a photon, entered darkseid's body via riding on a beam of light (reasoning that if darkseid could SEE his opponents, then light MUST be able to get in) went through his retinas into his brain and simply fried his brain from the inside and killed him.

Guess what surfer's able to do also?

If this worked on freaking DARKSEID, it's sure as hell a valid tactic to use on superman.

Still, this implies a lot of strategy on surfer's part and there's no guarantee he'll be this clever, or have the inclination to kill.

even split is reasonable.

However, as you will find, convincing people who are unwilling to accept truths that don't fit their ideals is virtually impossible.

Surfer winning the majority is reasonable.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
There are many ways for Surfer to win against Superman. Not so many for Superman (most of them involve punching).

However, as you will find, convincing people who are unwilling to accept truths that don't fit their ideals is virtually impossible.

Surfer winning the majority is reasonable.

QFT