Originally posted by Darth_noodle
1) "djem so beats juyo"......
prove it.2) Luke diddnt force choke the guards, choke is only a darkside power (unless ur talkin about mace windu who uses chock and crush alot). Luke used force stun. Also, using the force does not take much effort for a well trained jedi/sith.
3) Maul has more strength than luke. In the duel with obi-wan and qui gon, he always wins every saber lock they have, and luke cant even beat vader in a saber lock.
as previously proven. points 1 and 2 you made are mute.
3)maul couldnt wind a saberlock with padawan obi but you see luke going toe to toe with vader both using djem so which is extremely phycially demanding. vader had 2 mechanical arms which tremendously boosted his power but luke only had 1 mechanical hand and still won. so the strength bonus goes to luke.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
Vader was not going all out since he wanted to convert Luke to the dark side.(i believe he recognizes this fact in another book that vader could have beat him) Luke used the darkside because vader was taunting him and Maul's style does not involve taunting. Maul takes this
luke wasnt goin all out either because he was trying to convert vader to the light, hence "I will not fight you father."
Originally posted by Man of Christ
or if that doesnt work, heres a more basic logic chain. luke beat vader who is the 2nd best sith in the 6 movies whereas maul is the bottom of the barrel, so luke would slaughter him.
Luke beat Vader under circumstances such as Vader taunting him and not exactly trying to kill him. He was trying to turn him to the darkside and have Luke help him overthrow Sidious. Vader could not convert a dead guy. Besides for the fact Vader was taunting him wanting Luke to give into the darkside so he can be made into a sith. It was only when Luke gave into the darkside. that he injured Vader. Luke would not have the ability to use that type of anger against Maul because Maul never taunts anyone in the way that they would revert to using the darkside.
And Maul did not defeat the bottom of the barrel he did kill Anoon Bondara.
Behind her and slightly to one side was her mentor, Anoon Bondara. Master Bondara epitomized what Darsha hoped to become one day. The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none. Darsha hoped that one day she might be able to exhibit a tenth of Anoon Bondara's adeptness.From Darth Maul : Shadow hunter.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
luke wasnt goin all out either because he was trying to convert vader to the light, hence "I will not fight you father."
But he did go all out to defeat Vader (when Vader threatened to convert Leia), whereas Vader was just trying to hold him off. If Vader had fought Luke with full intentions of killing him, Luke would be dead.
It's quite obvious in ROTJ that Vader isn't making a great effort to destroy Luke, he pretty much admits as much.
Vader had far more experience and power. He had faced and beaten better opponents, had survived more desperate situations etc
Luke was his son, and he was unwilling, in the end, to destroy him.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
Luke beat Vader under circumstances such as Vader taunting him and not exactly trying to kill him. He was trying to turn him to the darkside and have Luke help him overthrow Sidious. Vader could not convert a dead guy. Besides for the fact Vader was taunting him wanting Luke to give into the darkside so he can be made into a sith. It was only when Luke gave into the darkside. that he injured Vader. Luke would not have the ability to use that type of anger against Maul because Maul never taunts anyone in the way that they would revert to using the darkside.And Maul did not defeat the bottom of the barrel he did kill Anoon Bondara.
From Darth Maul : Shadow hunter.
I would not call Bondara the bottom of the barrel, Bondara realized that he couldn't kill Maul so he tried to kill maul with himself but failed. And Maul was able to survive this suicied/sacrifice attempt.
Maul taunting obi was why he died. And EVERYBODY IN THIS FORUM NEEDS TO STOP ACTING LIKE MAUL IS THE BEST THING SINCE SLICE BREAD. IF HE WERE SO GREAT HE WOULD HAVE SURVIVED LONG ENOUGH TO BE IN THE SEQUEL TRILOGY BUT HE IS THE ONLY SITH TO HAVE DIED AFTER ONE MOVIE. SIDDIOUS ALL SIX MOVIES. VADER FOUR MOVIES. DOOKU TWO MOVIES. BUT MAUL ONLY ONE MOVIE.
The fact that he lasted only one movie does not mean he wasn't skilled. That's one of the worst logics I've ever read on these forums. I would like you to mention at least two other Sith apprentices who are strong enough to defeat Kenobi, an above average padawan who was very talented with the saber, and Qui-Gon, one of the best saber duelists of the Order (TpM), being the equal of Mace Windu by TpM.
Maul is described as being one of the deadliest Sith apprentices ever. Period. You simply cannot argue against that.
Originally posted by 0°Mandalore°0
The fact that he lasted only one movie does not mean he wasn't skilled. That's one of the worst logics I've ever read on these forums. I would like you to mention at least two other Sith apprentices who are strong enough to defeat Kenobi, an above average padawan who was very talented with the saber, and Qui-Gon, one of the best saber duelists of the Order (TpM), being the equal of Mace Windu by TpM.
Maul is described as being one of the deadliest Sith apprentices ever. Period. You simply cannot argue against that.
dude he was the only sith in the movies killed by a padawan, for all the others it took a master or a knight.
but he still died by an obi before his prime and a quigon past his prime.
for dooku, yoda at his prime was even with him.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
dude he was the only sith in the movies killed by a padawan, for all the others it took a master or a knight.
but he still died by an obi before his prime and a quigon past his prime.
for dooku, yoda at his prime was even with him.
So what does that mean? He was OVERCONFIDENT pacing back forth like that is quite clearly overconfidence.
And he made Anoon Bondara realized who's saber skills were described as second to none that he could not kill Maul. That speaks volume's of Maul's skills. Furthermore kenobi's killing move caught him off guard as he was hanging from a rod than he jumps of and slashes him. Maul could not react. After being hit from force lighting that brought him to his knees he immediately got back up and killed the witch, this was during his assassinations of the black sun members. Another big advantage is that Luke would never had encountered someone who uses the double bladed lightsaber and he would be confused by it considering he had very limited training and Maul's fighting style also includes some level of martial arts with him using his body as well performing unusual maneuveres that Luke has also never seen.
As for Qui gon-Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order TPM novel and Maul killed him. Given Maul's experience,unique fighting style,a silent fighter (luke would not have the rage he attacked vader with) and Luke's lack of training and experience Maul wins.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
So what does that mean? He was OVERCONFIDENT pacing back forth like that is quite clearly overconfidence.And he made Anoon Bondara realized who's saber skills were described as second to none that he could not kill Maul. That speaks volume's of Maul's skills. Furthermore kenobi's killing move caught him off guard as he was hanging from a rod than he jumps of and slashes him. Maul could not react. After being hit from force lighting that brought him to his knees he immediately got back up and killed the witch, this was during his assassinations of the black sun members. Another big advantage is that Luke would never had encountered someone who uses the double bladed lightsaber and he would be confused by it considering he had very limited training and Maul's fighting style also includes some level of martial arts with him using his body as well performing unusual maneuveres that Luke has also never seen.
As for Qui gon-Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order TPM novel and Maul killed him. Given Maul's experience,unique fighting style,a silent fighter (luke would not have the rage he attacked vader with) and Luke's lack of training and experience Maul wins.
1) im quite sure obi wan was just as new to the dueling a guy with 2 sabers thing and he still pulled it off.
2) STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MAUL if he were so great then he would have been able to react to obi wans counter attack and not just stand there watching him do it. and his overconfidence would cloud his judgment fighting a clear headed lightsider like luke
Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) im quite sure obi wan was just as new to the dueling a guy with 2 sabers thing and he still pulled it off.
2) STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MAUL if he were so great then he would have been able to react to obi wans counter attack and not just stand there watching him do it. and his overconfidence would cloud his judgment fighting a clear headed lightsider like luke
1. New dueling a double bladed lightsaber yes. But he did have Qui-gpn there too. Plus he has been trained as a jedi for years and years. He has knowledge of lightsaber combat that Luke would most likely not have any knowledge.Notice how kenobi could only contend with Maul was after Qui gon was killed then only cut the sabe rin half got outdueled with asingle saber by Maul and he was using the darkside during all of this which Luke wont have here. And he did get lucky against Maul who was able to out duel him even when kenobi used the darkside. He got overconfident after he had kenobi hanging not during the duel with him over Qui-gon body's. Which is in itself is impressive to out dueingl a pair of jedi.
2.I'm not making excuses for Maul he die. But saying if he was so great then he would have been able to do this.....is not a very good arguement as is the #of movies he was in. A clear headed Luke was defeated by Vader in ESB and a clearheaded Luke could not handle Vader in ROTJ so he was forced to hide. Meanwhile you have yet to address the point of Maul having better fore resistance,defeating someone who is second to none . Your entire arguement so farhas been screen time,maul is overrated,luke defeated Vader when using the darkside (and still wanted to use his son vs Sidious.) real convincing.
Originally posted by Darth Hord
1. New dueling a double bladed lightsaber yes. But he did have Qui-gpn there too. Plus he has been trained as a jedi for years and years. He has knowledge of lightsaber combat that Luke would most likely not have any knowledge.Notice how kenobi could only contend with Maul was after Qui gon was killed then only cut the sabe rin half got outdueled with asingle saber by Maul and he was using the darkside during all of this which Luke wont have here. And he did get lucky against Maul who was able to out duel him even when kenobi used the darkside. He got overconfident after he had kenobi hanging not during the duel with him over Qui-gon body's. Which is in itself is impressive to out dueingl a pair of jedi.2.I'm not making excuses for Maul he die. But saying if he was so great then he would have been able to do this.....is not a very good arguement as is the #of movies he was in. A clear headed Luke was defeated by Vader in ESB and a clearheaded Luke could not handle Vader in ROTJ so he was forced to hide. Meanwhile you have yet to address the point of Maul having better fore resistance,defeating someone who is second to none . Your entire arguement so farhas been screen time,maul is overrated,luke defeated Vader when using the darkside (and still wanted to use his son vs Sidious.) real convincing.
1) Qui-gon being there doesnt matter because maul had to separate them.m luke is a fast learner like his father which is why he beat vader with basically less than a year of training. kenobi didnt get lucky against maul, maul was just so unskilled. that counter attack obi wan did could have easily been diverted by a sith that knew what they were doing, hence maul couldve used the force to push him back in th hole. mauls death was his own fault.
2) #of movies does have some correlation, why do you thing only the really good jedi/sith were in more movies, like siddious, obiwan,yoda ki adi mundi, etc... in ESB luke was not clearheaded, he was still filled with the impacience and anxiety he expiirenced on dagobah when he had the vision of his endangered friends. in ROTJ he was calmer so he was able to face vader and won. yep the fat that vader wanted to recruit luke speaks to his power. siddious wanted to recruit luke too and said "he will become a powerful ally" luke must have been pretty powerful if siddious was willing to break the rule of two.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) Qui-gon being there doesnt matter because maul had to separate them.m luke is a fast learner like his father which is why he beat vader with basically less than a year of training. kenobi didnt get lucky against maul, maul was just so unskilled. that counter attack obi wan did could have easily been diverted by a sith that knew what they were doing, hence maul couldve used the force to push him back in th hole. mauls death was his own fault.
That speaks for Maul's skill being able to separate the 2 while fighting them. Still use the darkside to overwhelm him. Maul unskilled?lol He wa surprised at the move nothing more especially since he pacing back and forth. Maul's death as his own fault but you are making it sound like Maul how no business being there.
2) #of movies does have some correlation, why do you thing only the really good jedi/sith were in more movies, like siddious, obiwan,yoda ki adi mundi, etc... in ESB luke was not clearheaded, he was still filled with the impacience and anxiety he expiirenced on dagobah when he had the vision of his endangered friends. in ROTJ he was calmer so he was able to face vader and won. yep the fat that vader wanted to recruit luke speaks to his power. siddious wanted to recruit luke too and said "he will become a powerful ally" luke must have been pretty powerful if siddious was willing to break the rule of two.
Plot pure and simple. Out of universe the reason was to introiduce the sith and each episode in the pt a new villian is introduced. Maul,Dooku, and Greivious. IN universe-Sidiou foresees Maul's death(jedi vs sith guide) and does not caution him because Maul had served his purpose and would not be able to do what Sidious needed which is whyCount Dooku was needed. Luke was in calmer state of mind otherwise. The point is Luke got tooled in ESB when not using the darkside and Vader was not trying to kill him. That speaks of the power Luke was going to have if he had been fully trained he was not powerful in ROTJ or ESB since they tell him to join and let them complete the training.
I gtg know so my argument will be cut short I will respond later today.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
dude he was the only sith in the movies killed by a padawan, for all the others it took a master or a knight.
but he still died by an obi before his prime and a quigon past his prime.
for dooku, yoda at his prime was even with him.
Apparently you need to watch the movie again. He DID NOT by any means defeat Maul. Maul was a vastly superior fighter, and he overpowered him. In case you do not remember, Maul had him at his feet literally. The only reason why Kenobi was able to kill Maul was because he started to play with him instead of killing him.
About the Padawan and Knight thing, again, in case you are forgetting, right after the death of Qui-Gon, Kenobi was promoted to Jedi Knight. This obviously means that even before he fought Maul he already was skilled enough to become a Jedi Knight.
And for god's sake, Dooku is NOT equal to Yoda at his prime. What could possibly make you say that?
Maul's accomplishments/strengths
Master of double bladed lightsaber combat uses Juyo as well as martial arts in his fighting style.
He killed many high ranking members of the black sun including its leader as well as his night sister guard Mighella.(He got up very quickly after her force lightning stopped him temporarily and killed her immediately afterwards)
Anoon Bondara whose lightsaber skill is described as second to none (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter)A Twi'lek, with slender head-tails and a heavily muscled upper body, his name was Anoon Bondara, a duelist of unparalleled skill. Qui-Gon engaged him in matches at every opportunity. For a match with Bondara, no matter how brief, was more instructive than twenty contests against lesser opponents. Yet even he could not defeat Maul.
Darsha Assant died in a very similar way to as her master Anoon could not kill Maul yet she also was able to beat Kenobi in a mock duel.
He out dueled Kenobi and Qui-gon then he later kill Qui-gon whose skill was very good and this was said of him in TMP novel Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order
He also out dueled Kenobi who was enraged with the darkside. Further more Maul himself admits that he was injured on Tattoine from the sand people. A few quotes from it.http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_I_Journal:_Darth_Maul
The howling intensifies. The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest........ I never run away from a battle. But this one will tax me, and my strength is needed for the Jedi. If my Master hears I have been wounded, he will be furious........... I turn my back to them, but only for an instant. I run straight for the canyon wall. I don't have much distance to cover, so I have to run fast. I feel the tearing wound in my left thigh, but I push it aside. Pain is another annoyance. It will not slow me down. I run up the sheer wall, calling up the dark side to escape my enemies. My contempt and my anger at the Tusken Raiders help me. I am able to scale the wall despite the pain. With a final burst of strength that sends red agony through my leg, I flip over backward, fly over the surprised upturned faces of the Raiders, and land behind them. They are so startled they don't react. That gives me a head start. I take off through the canyon, heading back to my ship. My wound troubles me, but now my annoyance is toward myself for feeling it. I force myself to run with my usual strength and speed.
So Maul was never at a 100% in T.P.M. Yet he still was able to do so much with an injury.
Please tell how Luke with far less training,little experience, and who will not have the same rage had when dueling Vader would be able to beat Maul.
Twi'lek, with slender head-tails and a heavily muscled upper body, his name was Anoon Bondara, a duelist of unparalleled skill. Qui-Gon engaged him in matches at every opportunity. For a match with Bondara, no matter how brief, was more instructive than twenty contests against lesser opponents.
Just for the record this was from Cloak of deception not shadow hunter. My bad that I did not write it.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
2 things.
Maul still got killed by a padawan.
luke had the endurance to survive palpatines contiuous force lighting, speaks volumes to his power.
Read my post above.
If you put it that way: how about Maul enduring Palpatine's cruel trainings and tortures over many years? Doesn't that also speak volumes to his power? Try again.
By the way, power has nothing to do with endurance. They are two completely different things.
Two things Luke by this time has never actually won a saber fight unless something happened to him.
Sidious lightning was designed to torture him not kill. Maul has great endurance to since he fought Qui-gon and Kenobi with a wound to his leg. And as mandalore said above having great endurance doesn't mean your powerful. Maul was able to get up immediately after being by force lightning from a force witch who was trying to kill him so he has a great endurance for pain as well plus he was trained by sidious so he would to have endure pain and torture all throughout his life. And that reminds of Maul actually being able have Sidious almost the rope in a duel prior to the TPM.
at
So remind me how Luke can be Maul who accomplished so much more as of this point.