Spike Tv's Video Game Awards, 2007

Again, you don't understand that you are factually committing a logical fallacy (Appeal to popularity 'the game is good because it's popular'😉. This is not subjective, you ARE committing this fallacy, and your argument becomes incorrect by doing so. This is all according to the rules of logic, this isn't just me disagreeing with you, you are actually wrong in doing so. You can look the fallacy up if you wish.

Otherwise, yes I think we agree -- the game is good.

And yes, I agree again, the marketing for Halo 3 was outstanding and undeniably effective.

Wait, are you a publisher for games?

Originally posted by BackFire
Again, you don't understand that you are factually committing a logical fallacy (Appeal to popularity 'the game is good because it's popular'😉. This is not subjective, you ARE committing this fallacy, and your argument becomes incorrect by doing so. This is all according to the rules of logic, this isn't just me disagreeing with you, you are actually wrong in doing so. You can look the fallacy up if you wish.

Wait, are you a publisher for games?

1. I cannot argue that my POV is objective...no POV can ever be objective...or rather, perfectly logical. However, the game is not just good...or great...but excellent because it is very well liked across the board from both a gamer's perspective AND a publisher's perspective...this is my logic because I follow logic as it pertains to marketing...not the same as logic from a philosophy class. This isn't philosophy class and my opinion does not have to follow logic as it reads in a college text book...if publishers followed logic like that, they wouldn't sell as many games and satisfy the gamer's current crave trends. Satisfy the gamer by making the game they love and crave...if it sells a shit load of games and is played from months to years by the masses...then the game is GREAT...that may not seem logical to you...but to each their own.

2. I am not a publisher, lol, I just try to review games from a publisher's perspective so my opinion can be more objective and less subjective about things...I do the same with movies...except it is the POV of a producer of course.

*POV is point of view...or rather simply I mean my opinion.

Logic is logic. Something that is wrong according to the rules is wrong all the time, it isn't just pertaining to philosophy or anything like that, but just basic reasoning of any form in any situation. It's incorrect and fallacious because it is completely and absolutely possible for something to be popular and be bad, as it is possible for something to be unpopular and great. Popularity =/= Quality. You can choose to not follow it if you wish, of course. It does make your argument ultimately invalid, though. But whatever, if you don't care then that's that.

I don't understand why trying to think as a publisher makes your opinion more objective. You can look at it as a gamer and be objective. Not just "I had fun with this game, so it's good" but the specifics of what made it good, and the flaws it may have had and how much they hindered the entire experience as opposed to the positives.

Originally posted by BackFire
Logic is logic. Something that is wrong according to the rules is wrong all the time, it isn't just pertaining to philosophy or anything like that, but just basic reasoning of any form in any situation. It's incorrect and fallacious because it is completely and absolutely possible for something to be popular and be bad, as it is possible for something to be unpopular and great. Popularity =/= Quality. You can choose to not follow it if you wish, of course. It does make your argument ultimately invalid, though. But whatever, if you don't care then that's that.

I don't understand why trying to think as a publisher makes your opinion more objective. You can look at it as a gamer and be objective. Not just "I had fun with this game, so it's good" but the specifics of what made it good, and the flaws it may have had and how much they hindered the entire experience as opposed to the positives.

That is illogical in and of itself...think about it...

"it is completely and absolutely possible for something to be popular and be bad, as it is possible for something to be unpopular and great."

How is that even logical to begin with? How can something as trivial as an opinion equate to strict logic on paper? These words "bad", "good", "popular" are wholly subjective in and of themselves and therefore cannot be bound by specific logic...that is my point...that is what I meant earlier. You are attempting to define an opinion as fact based on logic...it can't work...I am attempting to quantify the opinion of the masses...despite the fact that I do no hold the same opinion...still not perfect but a lot closer to "real world" measurement....

Popular? Subjective. Good? Subjective. Bad? Subjective. Calling a game good relative to its "contemporaries" based on sales and use over time?...still subjective but it does hold true in the real world where money counts and the satisfaction of a gamer makes the rules of the market...this is why I think I am right...key word there...."think"....because neither one of us can prove our POV as a fact. (Though you seem very convinced that your POV is perfectly logical.)

As for the publisher idea....I do not have to explain to you at all why taking a different perspective on anything can contribute to a more objective observation....one should always strive to do that when judging something. A gamer will NOT have the same perspective as a gaming publisher...there are definite overlaps and they can be one in the same...I know you know that....consider each game you play, as a publisher.(a competitor of the publisher of the game or even the publisher of the game you are currently interested in/playing.) AFTER you judge the game as a gamer, judge it as a publisher; it may provide some additional insight into your thoughts of the game...it also makes watching those X-Box live downloads about "the making of" a lot more fun as you watch developers talk about their publishers goals...(Basically, what the boss says...)

I personally don't make a conscience effort to think like both a gamer and a publisher...it occurs one in the same with me...I do indeed end up with conflicting thoughts and it seems schizophrenic at times because I seem to argue with myself. (I don't do it just with video games...)

Err... all that, and you still don't understand. I never claimed or insinuated that my opinion is fact. My opinion is as follows -- Halo 3, and all of the Halo games, are good, close to great, but not quite there. There are flaws that I feel hold it back. That is my opinion.

The following is not opinion, but fact as per the rules of logic, which you seem to think don't apply in all situations for some reason (they do) -- Popularity doesn't inherently equate to quality. Popularity only has to do with popularity, the quality is another aspect entirely. It's perfectly reasonable and possible for something to be good and unpopular, bad and popular, or bad and unpopular or good and popular; all are possible.

All this about what's subjective and objective, I know. I know the terms 'good, 'bad' 'popular' are all subjective to each person, really has nothing to do with what I've been saying. I've made it very clear which segments of my statements are and aren't opinion. My thoughts on the game is opinion. My statements on logic and about popularity is not, I'm simply stating the rules of logic that defeat that kind of thinking, nothing more.

I know taking different perspectives can alter an observation. I was just wondering how taking the perspective of the publisher makes it any more objective. How do you even know how a publisher looks at a game or how they think? Is it because you take into account the money that a game could make or something? If so, how does that make it objective?

And, opinion can totally equate to logic, as it can totally be broken and incorrect. I don't get the confusion. Someone saying something like "Gay marriage is bad, if you allow gay marriage then next people will be marrying children and goats and toasters" is using broken logic. The person's opinion in that statement is completely subjective (Gay Marriage is bad), what he uses to DEFEND it is what's incorrect, and it ultimately makes his opinion worthless, he has defeated himself by using broken logic to defend it. He can't sit there and say "Well it's my opinion!" and expect that to make a shit of difference, he's still wrong by using a broken argument to defend his opinion.

Originally posted by BackFire
Err... all that, and you still don't understand. I never claimed or insinuated that my opinion is fact. My opinion is as follows -- Halo 3, and all of the Halo games, are good, close to great, but not quite there. There are flaws that I feel hold it back. That is my opinion.

The following is not opinion, but fact as per the rules of logic, which you seem to think don't apply in all situations for some reason (they do) -- Popularity doesn't inherently equate to quality. Popularity only has to do with popularity, the quality is another aspect entirely. It's perfectly reasonable and possible for something to be good and unpopular, bad and popular, or bad and unpopular or good and popular; all are possible.

All this about what's subjective and objective, I know. I know the terms 'good, 'bad' 'popular' are all subjective to each person, really has nothing to do with what I've been saying. I've made it very clear which segments of my statements are and aren't opinion. My thoughts on the game is opinion. My statements on logic and about popularity is not, I'm simply stating the rules of logic that defeat that kind of thinking, nothing more.

I know taking different perspectives can alter an observation. I was just wondering how taking the perspective of the publisher makes it any more objective. How do you even know how a publisher looks at a game or how they think? Is it because you take into account the money that a game could make or something? If so, how does that make it objective?

And, opinion can totally equate to logic, as it can totally be broken and incorrect. I don't get the confusion. Someone saying something like "Gay marriage is bad, if you allow gay marriage then next people will be marrying children and goats and toasters" is using broken logic. The person's opinion in that statement is completely subjective (Gay Marriage is bad), what he uses to DEFEND it is what's incorrect, and it ultimately makes his opinion worthless, he has defeated himself by using broken logic to defend it. He can't sit there and say "Well it's my opinion!" and expect that to make a shit of difference, he's still wrong by using a broken argument to defend his opinion.

I understand your point and I understood it the first time you stated....the quality of a game and its popularity are two separate measurements made on a video game that are not logically the same.

I disagree with that because the individual definition of quality is different from person to person...something that I think is a good game that doesn't sell well is good only to me...but not the general public...because good is subjective...same thing with quality. A quality game...to me...means a whole lot more than quality means to my Grandmother...who is over 70...who plays Nintendo sometimes hours on end.

A game that is popular IS a good game...to the general population. There are aspects of the game that contribute to being a good game..you brought quality into this discussion...I didn't. If the game sells and it has a large following, then as objectively as I can observe...the game is good...relative to other games...hence "millions of people can't be wrong"...or rather "millions of people can't be wrong about what they like".

Can we talk about something else now?

Can't believe Bioshock won Game of the year... I mean I like the game even though I'm not so much into the survival horror theme but the game is like what 10 hours long? I didn't beat it yet, but thats mostly because I think it gets kind of boring. As far as I'm concerned there isn't much replay value, and no multiplayer which kind of sucks. I haven't played Mass Effect yet but I watched a friend play it a bit and it looked amazing. And Halo 3 is just... ya know Halo 3.

wow I just read the last 6 pages and theres two things I'd like to comment on...

First of all maybe its just me, but when Halo came out, I only wanted it for the campaign... nothing else. To this day I don't think there has been a single time when my best friend (j-beowulf on this forum) has come over and we haven't played coop on the original halo. To me, multiplayer is just an added bonus.

The second thing is... What the Fvck are you guys arguing about? Like seriously don't you have something more important to do?

Originally posted by Spartan005
The second thing is... What the Fvck are you guys arguing about? Like seriously don't you have something more important to do?

Your mom hasn't bee available recently...she gave me that "oh...I need to focus on keeping my marriage together" speech...I think she is getting all "holier than thou" on me.

Nah, it's because she was with me.

While I was posting in this thread.

Oral sex, and such.

Under my desk.

You get it.

Originally posted by BackFire
Nah, it's because she was with me.

While I was posting in this thread.

Oral sex, and such.

Under my desk.

You get it.

I know that's a lie because you're under my desk. 🙄

I wasn't then.

Originally posted by BackFire
I wasn't then.

okay okay...you win... 🙁 You can have his mom...I was just using her anyway. (as she was me.)

We can both use her.

into older women I take it? I mean I don't mind either but when you're licking a 53 year old va....

nevermind.

I can still taste the birth fluid... mmmmm

Originally posted by BackFire
I can still taste the birth fluid... mmmmm

pwnt 🙂

Just watched this (for the most part) last night.

Disappointing indeed.

I thought it was rather funny at the end when Samuel L. Jackson was trying to get the Naked/Painted Ladies to take a bow and they wouldn't.

Anata wa wakarimasu ka.....