Originally posted by Xplosive
MM is more versatile, but I can't see MM putting WWH down or knocking him out.
While if WWH grabs him, he would put him out. MM should be more favored, but if WWH would win, wouldn't be a surprised.
If the Hulk grabs him? Because J'onn can't shapeshift, turn intangible, invisible, or move faster than the Hulk can perceive?
Stop kidding yourself. An enraged Hulk may be slightly stronger than J'onn. Every other advantage? J'onn has in spades.
Originally posted by SoljerYay. Mr. Fantastic usually manages to wiggle himself out of situations through his malleability. Didn't quite help him so much. And using intangibility, invisibility and speed defensively is nice, so what is MMH actually going to do to put down WWH offensively? Yay for being the swiss army knife of heroes, everything J'onn can do and more, was attempted and failed in 'World War Hulk.' Cancelling his healing factor, overloading him or leeching away his gamma energy was all that gave him pause. Nobody has even bothered to work out a scenario where any of that would happen.
If the Hulk grabs him? Because J'onn can't shapeshift, turn intangible, invisible, or move faster than the Hulk can perceive?
The pro-MMH arguments can be pretty much summarized as follows: J'onn has powers -> J'onn uses those powers -> J'onn wins because of those powers. Help us poor pro-WWH posters and please fill in the blanks for us.
Originally posted by SoljerSoljer. You just made me 😘 in my mouth. It's probably safe to say that enraged Hulk is a lot stronger then J'onn. And it's very safe to say that WWH dwarfs J'onn's strength. His durability, stamina and healing factor are probably greater then J'onn's as well.
Stop kidding yourself. An enraged Hulk may be slightly stronger than J'onn. Every other advantage? J'onn has in spades.
WWH 8/10.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yay. Mr. Fantastic usually manages to wiggle himself out of situations through his malleability. Didn't quite help him so much. And using intangibility, invisibility and speed defensively is nice, so what is MMH actually going to do to put down WWH offensively? Yay for being the swiss army knife of heroes, everything J'onn can do and more, was attempted and failed in 'World War Hulk.' Cancelling his healing factor, overloading him or leeching away his gamma energy was all that gave him pause. Nobody has even bothered to work out a scenario where any of that would happen.The pro-MMH arguments can be pretty much summarized as follows: J'onn has powers -> J'onn uses those powers -> J'onn wins because of those powers. Help us poor pro-WWH posters and please fill in the blanks for us.
Soljer. You just made me 😘 in my mouth. It's probably safe to say that enraged Hulk is a lot stronger then J'onn. And it's very safe to say that WWH dwarfs J'onn's strength. His durability, stamina and healing factor are probably greater then J'onn's as well.WWH 8/10.
World War Hulk, as portrayed throughout his arc, did nothing that was leaps and bounds superior to J'onn in terms of strength. The only time he displayed strength above top-tier was when he went 'Super Saiya-jin' and was shaking the coastline.
Besides that, he was likely weaker than Martian Manhunter. His durability was piss poor throughout most of the arc, and his healing factor is pitiful compared to J'onn's high showings.
To summarize the 'pro-wwh' argument; The Hulk is stronger -> he wins. What sort of sense does this make when Jonn won't even be touched if he doesn't want to be, and can heal from anything the Hulk feels like dishing out?
Originally posted by Martian_mindWell, on this minor point, I'm welcome to measure any assertions to the contrary. We've seen Zom Strange pull his energized fist out of the Hulk and in the next panel, Hulk has already healed it. And a weaker Professor Hulk healed from a burnt up skeletal state in three panels.
His healing factor sure as hell isn't better.
Show me where J'onn gets smushed, like by Black Adam's punches in WW3 and how he heals up in 2 or 3 panels. Or since nobody likes those, other instances where he gets bloodied up, impaled or burnt up and heals up in 2 or 3 panels. Then I'll concede his healing factor is as good.
Then show me where J'onn heals from that damage in a single panel or half a panel, and I'll concede WWH's healing factor "sure as hell isn't better." I can be patient. But I don't like to ask more then three times.
I know he regrew from a puddle whie trapped in Lava in about 4 panels,which trumps Hulks impaled feat.I'll have to scan it if you really want to see it.
He also regrew from an arm in about a page,and i'll double check to see how quick his arm grew back after he cut it off,though i'm sure it was less then a page.
He was ripped to shreds During a therapy session,and was unhurt and able to speak to Wonder Woman immediatly afterwords.(have this scan ready)
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic208.jpg
Here's someting nifty,back when Jonn was weak to flame he was greatly weakened and could be killed by it easily...but his endurance is good enough that even after he had been burning for hours he could rip a tree from WW grasp and tag flash.
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic133.jpg
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic134.jpg
Here Jonn gets hit by Amsmodel,lord of angels attack,which rips molecules apart...Jonn comes out swinging
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic114.jpg
Then after fighting Asmodel for seven pages,he still goes to lift the massive heavenly chariot..which sets him on fire,and he still helps.
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic117.jpg
Not saying Jonns is better,but they're definetly equals.
Originally posted by Soljer
If the Hulk grabs him? Because J'onn can't shapeshift, turn intangible, invisible, or move faster than the Hulk can perceive?Stop kidding yourself. An enraged Hulk may be slightly stronger than J'onn. Every other advantage? J'onn has in spades.
😕
WOW... That's a mouth full of crap there Soljer... J'onn is CL80 at his best... It's OK you can admit it... The DCfanboy club of America won't revoke your lifetime membership I don't think... The truth is that J'onn J'onn couldn't do shit to WWH.
WWH>MM 11/10
Originally posted by Tony Stark
😕WOW... That's a mouth full of crap there Soljer... J'onn is CL80 at his best... It's OK you can admit it... The DCfanboy club of America won't revoke your lifetime membership I don't think... The truth is that J'onn J'onn couldn't do shit to WWH.
WWH>MM 11/10
You my friend, make a good case. For intelligence requirements for posting that is. durlaugh
Class 80?
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=3.jpg
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomics205.jpg
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic320.jpg
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic122.jpg
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic123.jpg
...Jonn's far more then class 80.
Originally posted by SoljerLet's list the feats of strength and you tell me whether J'onn could do them:
World War Hulk, as portrayed throughout his arc, did nothing that was leaps and bounds superior to J'onn in terms of strength. The only time he displayed strength above top-tier was when he went 'Super Saiya-jin' and was shaking the coastline.Besides that, he was likely weaker than Martian Manhunter. His durability was piss poor throughout most of the arc, and his healing factor is pitiful compared to J'onn's high showings.
WWH one-shotted She-Hulk. (I think J'onn could do that.)
WWH one-shotted Ares. (I'm not too impressed with Ares, tbh. J'onn could maybe do that.)
WWH one-shotted Thing. (I'm not confident J'onn could do that.)
WWH broke through Invisible Woman's shields in three shots. (I'm less confident that J'onn could do that.)
WWH bent each of Colossus' arms in each of his hands like aluminum. (I don't think J'onn could do that, maybe he could use both arms to bend one arm, but go into a mercy standoff like that and use his sheer hand strength like WWH? No. I don't think he could do that.)
WWH halted Juggernaut's advance. (I sure as hell don't see J'onn doing this.)
WWH shook the eastern seaboard by stepping his foot down once. (You already admitted J'onn couldn't do this.)
So with all that, you're asserting that WWH was probably weaker then J'onn throughout 'World War Hulk?' Okie dokie. I'm interested in your opinions of the above. Because to support your idea, you'd really have to believe that J'onn could do all those above things much easier then WWH did. Do you?
His durability was piss poor? I won't do a comprehensive list, but for example:
WWH only gets knocked backward by Black Bolt's scream. (I think J'onn would have been knocked unconscious like Gladiator has been in the past.)
WWH isn't fazed by Storm's and Human Torch's supernova flamebolt attack. (I don't see J'onn being able to stand there nonchalantly).
And his healing factor sucked compared to J'onn's? Well, show me scans where J'onn gets bloodied up, impaled, or burnt up and heals in a single panel rather then two or three and I might concede that J'onn's healing factor makes WWH's look pitiful.
Originally posted by SoljerI already told you what my arguments were. J'onn's usual attacks won't work. Several of his patented strategies would backfire and leave him vulnerable. Any conventional pummelling or martian vision assault combined with his intangibility/invisibility/superspeed to avoid getting hit would leave him exhausted and then vulnerable. Any the "I'll just stay intangible like a pussy" argument = a non-fight.
To summarize the 'pro-wwh' argument; The Hulk is stronger -> he wins. What sort of sense does this make when Jonn won't even be touched if he doesn't want to be, and can heal from anything the Hulk feels like dishing out?
None of WWH attacks can leave him vulnerable from backlash. WWH doesn't get tired and only gets stronger and stronger as he went on. J'onn doesn't share that. Like I said, some risky off-the-wall telepathic attack might work 1 or 2 out of 10 times. But that's it. You may not like it, but I'm just trying to imagine what the fight would be like logically. It's nice to make a statement that his strength, prowess and variety of powers ought to be able to beat up a strong guy. But I don't see it and until someone tells me a scenario where MMH could viably knock him out, turn off his gamma radiation, overload him through sheer power or cancel his healing factor, I don't see MMH taking more then a couple of wins. And regarding MMH's ability to heal, the fact is, MMH has been knocked out by super-strength. And a good knockout is a win. I am certainly willing to think that WWH has sufficient strength to knock him unconscious, especially when all of MMH's attacks have fair probabilities of backfiring and/or simply exhausting him.
WWH 8/10.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And his healing factor sucked compared to J'onn's? Well, show me scans where J'onn gets bloodied up, impaled, or burnt up and heals in a single panel rather then two or three and I might concede that J'onn's healing factor makes WWH's look pitiful.
A scan of Jonn functioning after his body was torn to shreds has already been posted. That outdoes any Hulk HF feat I know of.
Originally posted by Martian_mindI appreciate the time and effort you put into providing scans. I've seen these in the respect thread. But it's nice for people to order and structure them for use in thread debates. Nevertheless, while I don't totally deny them of merit, most of these, save for the very first two you mention, seem to do more with durability then healing factor. Your thoughts?
I know he regrew from a puddle whie trapped in Lava in about 4 panels,which trumps Hulks impaled feat.I'll have to scan it if you really want to see it.He also regrew from an arm in about a page,and i'll double check to see how quick his arm grew back after he cut it off,though i'm sure it was less then a page.
He was ripped to shreds During a therapy session,and was unhurt and able to speak to Wonder Woman immediatly afterwords.(have this scan ready)
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic208.jpg
Here's someting nifty,back when Jonn was weak to flame he was greatly weakened and could be killed by it easily...but his endurance is good enough that even after he had been burning for hours he could rip a tree from WW grasp and tag flash.
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic133.jpg
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic134.jpgHere Jonn gets hit by Amsmodel,lord of angels attack,which rips molecules apart...Jonn comes out swinging
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic114.jpg
Then after fighting Asmodel for seven pages,he still goes to lift the massive heavenly chariot..which sets him on fire,and he still helps.
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomic117.jpg
Not saying Jonns is better,but they're definetly equals.
And him being torn to pieces... well... I think that would be a win in a hypothetical fight, no? You know the context of that therapy scene better then I do, is MMH really unfazed by being sliced up and his "Ow." statement is a joke on Diana? Or is he really in pain and his fighting status is essentially a K.O.? I know he wasn't fighting Diana, but if that were to happen in a fight...
Jonn can and has phased through her lasso in comics before,so she couldn't do that in a fight.Plus Jonn submitted to it,and was basically deaing with inner demons.
Also,this is a feat like Hulks impaling,but Jonn is relatively unfazed by it.
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomics199.jpg
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomics200.jpg
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view¤t=Jimscomics201.jpg
This is just here to show that i doubt a punch through the stomach would do Jonn much harm,plus that the Mr fantastic scenario is very doubtful to happen.
Also,i think the Asmodel feat is healing,as he was caught in an explosion,energy blast and exposed to his greatest weakness and only looks the worse for wear while he's fighting Asmodel.
J'onn is on the lower end of the top tier strength scale, along with WW and others.
He's not dwarfed by Hulk and Superman, but he's not their equal.
He doesn't need to be tho, since he's got a host of other powers to fall back on.
WWH slightly stronger than J'onn??
Lol.
Durability is hard to measure.
While Shulkie did draw blood, he also took an adamantium barrage, that i doubt few top tiers could walk away from.
HF is Hulks game, tho a case could be made for J'onn.
J'onn has too much of a loser stink to win this fight.
Originally posted by Soljer
If the Hulk grabs him? Because J'onn can't shapeshift, turn intangible, invisible, or move faster than the Hulk can perceive?
Wow, Reed powers didn't help him that much againt WWH.
Won't help him once WWH grabs him (if he grabs him, invisibility won't help him, shapeshiting won't help him, WWH would crush him then and any power MM has, WWH actually faced that and none of it stopped him). And MM won't put Hulk down, not close.
Actually stop kidding youself, you sound like it's an easy fight for MM.
Actually, MM can't win this.
Stalemate with J'ohn running away.
In the end of WWH, J'ohn strenght would pale in comparison and wouldn't be close to even do anyhting to WW Hulk, except avoding him. J'ohn best chance would be to run away.
