Originally posted by Borbarad
Some easy math for you: Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in Bane's order (which means Sidious > Bane).
If you're referring to what's said in the Dark Side Sourcebook (which is the only source that might appear to directly state as much), here's the exact passage:
When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the sith.'
As can be seen, whether Palpatine is being stated to be the most powerful of the entire Sith Order that had been "watching and waiting [for a thousand years]," or the two then current Sith that had "finally emerged" is extremely vague. Not to mention, given the context, where Palpatine's intelligence, understanding of politics, and ability to manipulate situations to his advantage are all elaborated on directly after Palpatine is described as "The most powerful," the exact meaning of "powerful" in this case is up for interpretation. Either way, it's your burden of proof, so either prove that the quote perfectly fits your interpretation, or drop the point.
Yet even Sidious was clearly not able to beat Yoda (saber wise and force wise) despite of the fact that he fought him out of superior positions two times. How the hell do you think that Bane can do the job? Because he's less powerful than Sidious who wasn't able to do it? Convincing line of thought there. Logic surrenders.
Please. When you have fighters as different as Bane (hint: his orbalisk armour, and the way he fights with it) and Sidious do, ABC arguments involving the two are never going to be valid, plus there's also the fact that your assertion that Sidious > Bane is thus far completely unsupported (see above).
As far as power showings are concerned, Bane's shown to be able to absorb force lightning being generated by a number of Sith Lords, that eventually reached such a level where it was stated that the power would have been able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan. He's then able to contain all of the energy without getting torn apart by it, and proceeds to direct it across the entire planet. That alone is a display of power and mastery beyond anything Sidious ever does. He's logically more powerful than DE Sidious, let alone the much weaker PT incarnation.
That negates the fact that Yoda moved really huge objects with telekinesis how exactly? Oh right. It doesn't. Another lesson for you, this time physics: If I can "produce" enough energy to lift an entire temple up or push several million tons of metal away - what will happen if I use the very same power (kinetic energy) on a human being?
If you're trying to insinuate that Yoda would be able to use telekinesis against Bane like he would any other regular human (and tell me if you are), I'll only be too happy to directly quote one of your essays on how force users are able to resist the force attacks of others.
Yoda reached a stalemate with a guy more powerful than Bane.
As can be seen, unproven.
He made one of the most powerful force users and best duellist the Jedi Order has ever produced run twice (Dooku)
If you're referring to what's said in the Revenge of the Sith novelisation (which is the only source that might appear to directly state as much), here's the exact passage:
This is Dooku, Darth Tyranus, Count of Serenno:
Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy. Nemesis of the corrupt Republic, oriflamme of the principled Confederacy of Independent Systems, he is the very personification of shock and awe.
He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history, yet at the age of seventy Dooku's principles would no longer allow him to serve a Republic in which political power was for sale to the highest bidder. He'd said farewell to his former Padawan, Qui-Gon Jinn, now a legendary Master in his own right; he'd said farewell to his close friends on the Jedi Council, Mace Windu and the ancient Master Yoda; he'd said farewell to the Jedi Order itself.
He is numbered among the Lost: the Jedi who renounced their fealty to the Order and resigned their commissions of Jedi Knighthood in service of ideals higher than even the Order itself professed. The Lost Twenty, as they have been known since Dooku joined their number, are remembered with both honor and regret among the Jedi; their images, sculpted from bronzium, stand enshrined in the Temple archives.
These bronzium images serve as melancholy reminders that some Jedi have needs the Order cannot satisfy.
Dooku had retired to his family estate, the planetary system of Serenno. Assuming his hereditary title as its Count made him one of the wealthiest beings in the galaxy. Amid the unabashed corruption endemic to the Republic, his immense wealth could have bought the allegiance of any given number of Senators; he could, perhaps, have bought control of the Republic itself.
But a man of such heritage, such principle, could never stoop to be lord of a garbage heap, chief of a horde of scavengers squabbling over scraps; the Republic, to him, was nothing more than this.
Instead, he used all the great power of his family fortune-and the vastly greater power of his unquestioned integrity-to begin the cleansing of the galaxy from the fester of this so-called democracy.
He is the icon of the Separatist movement, its public face. He is to the Confederacy of Independent Systems what Palpatine is to the Republic: the living symbol of the justice of its cause.
This is the public story.
This is the story that even Dooku, in his weaker moments, almost believes.
The truth is more complicated.
Dooku is ... different.
So as can be seen, the entire passage (beginning with "This is Dooku" and ending with "This is the public story" obviously given the repetition) is quite clearly - rather than something factually stated directly from the omniscient narrator - what the Public of the time believed the story to be.
To quote you: "Since when do character thoughts mean anything?"
and obviously scared him to such a degree, that Dooku develops thoughts about Yoda going Dark Side and wiping the floor with Sidious ass with the power of the Dark Side, just to develop into a thread to every single living being in the Galaxy.
Lol, Nai. More like, happens to come to such a belief after seeing, what's hinted at possibly being, a force induced vision, the accuracy of which is never elaborated on. Point being, Dooku didn't form such a conclusion based on how Yoda was able to fight against him, which is quite clearly how you were trying to make it out to be.
Bane did what? Own a bunch of people that are children and weaklings in comparison to the little Jedi?
Right, because Kas'im (who the much weaker Bane that had yet to obtain the orbalisk armour was able to overwhelm on equal footing), stated to have mastered and spent years perfecting every single form of the lightsaber, and to possibly be the greatest swordsman there had ever been up until that time, who was strong enough in the force to defend himself against an attack that was powerful enough to "shatter every bone in [his] body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid," and who wielded one saber as if he had five of them, is an absolute child compared to Yoda. I mean, Yoda was only the guy who sat on his ass all day and was so out of practise with the ligthsaber that Jedi around the temple hadn't ever seen him with one (Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Yoda's section), and struggled with preventing the fall of a pillar with telekinesis. Man, that guy sure is one God when up against Kas'im. You're absolutely correct Nai.
Congratulations. That qualifies him as potential "Yoda-Killer" how exactly? Not? Yoda will own him in terms of a force fight.
Despite not ever matching him in terms of force displays (refer to what Yoda does during the BoD's force storm ritual)?
And if you talk about the difficulties that Yoda might have fighting Bane - vice versa? Yoda is fast enough to avoid the strikes of three master swordsman (among them Depa Billaba)
In a demonstration shown to padawans, rather than a real life battle scenario, absolutely. The point was to show the padawans that force mastery would be a far greater strength than sheer battle adeptness. Prove that the Jedi would have had a problem with planning the demonstration beforehand with the aim to exaggerate the strengths behind sheer force mastery, or drop the point.
Also, those last two points? Irrelevant. Them being master swordsman (I'd like some poof, by the way) does not add to the difficulty of dodging their attacks, where on their part, speed would be the only factor, and neither would Depa's adeptness with Vaapad.
without even holding a weapon in his hand (Darth Maul - Shadow Hunter).
Irrelevant. Holding a weapon in his hand wouldn't make it any easier for him to dodge their attacks.
He's capable of running circles around Sidious who is fast and precise enough with a lightsaber to have his blade run so close and fast around Maul's body that a constant blur was seen and a muscle twitch of Maul would have resulted in losing a limp.
Wonderful. Bane was capable of moving at speeds where his lightsaber was described as appearing to be (to the eyes of force users) everywhere at once, where he appeared to be wielding twelve saber at once (to the eyes of the ridiculously powerful Zannah), and so fast that time appeared to stop for all the powerful force user around him (which included Kas'im), where he was able to move so much greater than what they could see.
YAY. Bane would absolutely defeat Yoda in a lightsaber fight - if we ignore the fact that he's most likely not able to hit Yoda,
Laughable, given Bane's superior displays in speed, and with the force.
that the Jedi Master has a 800 year training advantage over Bane with the lightsaber
Sure, let's just pretend that sheer age for a Jedi Master absolutely correlates with their experience with a lightsaber, and ignore the fact that Yoda was mostly out of practise by the time period we're dealing with.
and the stuff that Yoda has shown us in terms of lightsaber combat.
Which pails is comparison to the way in which [the much weaker armourless] Bane overwhelms Kas'im, who is logically easily above Yoda.
So if we completely ignore any information we have, we might reach your conclusion. In "reality"? Yoda destroys Bane. End of story.
Right, absolutely Nai. Except for the fact that PoD Bane would likely easily defeat Yoda given the way he dominates against Yoda's logical superior, Kas'im. Factor in the obvious improvements in force and lightsaber refinement that Bane went through ten years after PoD, as well as the benefits of the orbalisk armour (near perfect protection, and enhancements to Bane's physical attributes, force strength, energy levels, and senses) as well as the fact that Bane's natural style would be unfamiliar to Yoda (the way Bane grips his saber hilt and angles his blade gives him a unique style that would be unfamiliar to everyone except Kas'im) as would be the way he fights with his orbalisk armour, where he can use parts of his body to defend himself against Yoda's attacks, can take a near fully offensive stance in battle, and can integrate melee attacks into his style like no other, and Ro2 Bane would logically be able to decimate Yoda. Nice not-knowing what you're talking about, though. Truly.
Originally posted by MadMel
before i get back to debating, i want you to answer me these..
do you enjoy getting constantly owned??
do you get some twisted thrill in getting banned over and over??
why do you come back, when it is clear nobody wants you here??
Translation: Before I get back to debating inserting absolutely imaginary pieces of information and adding lame smilies at the end of my posts that make me look like a woman, I will proceed to commit a Fallacy of many questions like a moron.
Now here's a question for you MadMel: why, in your opinion, do you think that nobody of importance here even acknowledges your existence, whereas the widely considered two best debaters here, Gideon and Advent, have both recognised me as a logical debater? Tell me Melanie, why exactly is that?
Just to correct a few points from my reply to Nai:
Please. When you have fighters as different as Bane (hint: his orbalisk armour, and the way he fights with it) and Sidious do, ABC arguments involving the two are never going to be valid, plus there's also the fact that your assertion that Sidious > Bane is thus far completely unsupported (see above).
^ The above was supposed to come out as:
Please. When you have fighters as different as Bane (hint: his orbalisk armour, and the way he fights with it) and Sidious are, ABC arguments involving the two are never going to be valid, plus there's also the fact that your assertion that Sidious > Bane is thus far completely unsupported (see above).
Despite not ever matching him in terms of force displays (refer to what Yoda does during the BoD's force storm ritual)?
^ The above was supposed to come out as:
Despite not ever matching him in terms of force displays (refer to what Bane does during the BoD's force storm ritual)?
In a demonstration shown to padawans, rather than a real life battle scenario, absolutely. The point was to show the padawans that force mastery would be a far greater strength than sheer battle adeptness. Prove that the Jedi would have had a problem with planning the demonstration beforehand with the aim to exaggerate the strengths behind sheer force mastery, or drop the point.
^ The above was supposed to come out as:
In a demonstration shown to padawans, rather than a real life battle scenario, absolutely. The point was to show the padawans that force mastery would be a far greater strength than sheer battle adeptness. Prove that the Jedi would have had a problem with planning the demonstration beforehand with the aim to exaggerate the strengths behind sheer force mastery, to further drive the point through to the padawans, or drop the point.
On that note, I feel like I am becoming more like Advent every day. 😂
Originally posted by MutantMessiah
Just to correct a few points from my reply to Nai:^ The above was supposed to come out as:
Please. When you have fighters as different as Bane (hint: his orbalisk armour, and the way he fights with it) and Sidious [b]are
, ABC arguments involving the two are never going to be valid, plus there's also the fact that your assertion that Sidious > Bane is thus far completely unsupported (see above).^ The above was supposed to come out as:
Despite not ever matching him in terms of force displays (refer to what Bane does during the BoD's force storm ritual)?
^ The above was supposed to come out as:
In a demonstration shown to padawans, rather than a real life battle scenario, absolutely. The point was to show the padawans that force mastery would be a far greater strength than sheer battle adeptness. Prove that the Jedi would have had a problem with planning the demonstration beforehand with the aim to exaggerate the strengths behind sheer force mastery, to further drive the point through to the padawans, or drop the point.
On that note, I feel like I am becoming more like Advent every day. 😂 [/B]
But you're not Noobaris. You've yet to win a debate and you're the worst debater on this forum. You've been banned more than 30 times and you just keep on embarassing yourself. All of your points have been defeated so we just laugh everytime you post.. Enjoy another ban.
Right, absolutely Nai. Except for the fact that PoD Bane would likely easily defeat Yoda given the way he dominates against Yoda's logical superior, Kas'im. Factor in the obvious improvements in force and lightsaber refinement that Bane went through ten years after PoD, as well as the benefits of the orbalisk armour (near perfect protection, and enhancements to Bane's physical attributes, force strength, energy levels, and senses) as well as the fact that Bane's natural style would be unfamiliar to Yoda (the way Bane grips his saber hilt and angles his blade gives him a unique style that would be unfamiliar to everyone except Kas'im) as would be the way he fights with his orbalisk armour, where he can use parts of his body to defend himself against Yoda's attacks, can take a near fully offensive stance in battle, and can integrate melee attacks into his style like no other, and Ro2 Bane would logically be able to decimate Yoda. Nice not-knowing what you're talking about, though. Truly.
Yeah........ what he said.
I think that I both like and dislike you at the same time Mutatmessiah ( or what ever) because you both back me up 🙂 and totally outclass me at the same time. 🙁
Oh well, I'm young. I've got time. 🤓 🤺
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
How many brain cells do you have Sexy? And no, [b]You've been wtfpwned again.
I.
AM.
NOT.
NEBERIS. 😒 [/B]
Actually only Noobaris goes through a great deal of denial after getting pwned in an argument. You, like Noobaris (assuming you aren't him), have been pwned in every debate. Try again. 😄
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
But you're not Noobaris. You've yet to win a debate and you're the worst debater on this forum. You've been banned more than 30 times and you just keep on embarassing yourself. All of your points have been defeated so we just laugh everytime you post.. Enjoy another ban.
Sure thing Darth Repetitive.
Originally posted by MutantMessiah
If you're referring to what's said in the Dark Side Sourcebook (which is the only source that might appear to directly state as much), here's the exact passage:When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the sith.'
As can be seen, whether Palpatine is being stated to be the most powerful of the entire Sith Order that had been "watching and waiting [for a thousand years]," or the two then current Sith that had "finally emerged" is extremely vague. Not to mention, given the context, where Palpatine's intelligence, understanding of politics, and ability to manipulate situations to his advantage are all elaborated on directly after Palpatine is described as "The most powerful," the exact meaning of "powerful" in this case is up for interpretation. Either way, it's your burden of proof, so either prove that the quote perfectly fits your interpretation, or drop the point.
Please. When you have fighters as different as Bane (hint: his orbalisk armour, and the way he fights with it) and Sidious do, ABC arguments involving the two are never going to be valid, plus there's also the fact that your assertion that Sidious > Bane is thus far completely unsupported (see above).
Oh...
"The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day."
This actually shows a development in the Sith Order that started with Bane and culminated in the figure of Sidious. It's an ascension in terms of force knowledge and, with that, force power. An undenyable fact. Hell. We could even use a bit of common sense here. Sidious had access to everything that Bane gathered + the stuff discovered in a thousand years by the Sith and handed down from master to apprentice. Then you have his own studies in addition which included the study of rather "uncommon" force users. It's simply not questionable that Sidious has more knowledge up his sleeve than Bane could possibly have.
We could add Sidious' own display of force powers or battle prowess here. And then one might ask the question how Bane does even remotely compare to Sidious. What has Bane ever done except owning a few deluded Sith Lords who were too proud to accept the teachings of the Ancient Sith and as smart as a dead starfish? Sure. Bane was the most powerful figure in his own time but still far away from Sidious knowledge, combat prowess or the track record of the movies DLotS.
As far as power showings are concerned, Bane's shown to be able to absorb force lightning being generated by a number of Sith Lords, that eventually reached such a level where it was stated that the power would have been able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan.
Woah. He didn't absorb force lightning. He did just channel the combined force energy of those Sith Lords. It's not as if he was attacked by them and simply stood there with a grin on his face, yelling "Yo,freaks. You can't mess with the best." It's basically the same that Dorskk-81 did with Luke's students to drive a fleet of enemy starships out of Yavin's solar system.
He's then able to contain all of the energy without getting torn apart by it, and proceeds to direct it across the entire planet. That alone is a display of power and mastery beyond anything Sidious ever does. He's logically more powerful than DE Sidious, let alone the much weaker PT incarnation.
LMAO.
Excuse me, friend. You have, of course, read the DE comics and you are, of course, aware of the fact that Sidious alone produced more devastating effects with his force storms, right? That without needing another 20 Sith Lords to grant him their power to archieve something like that? The mere fact that it wasn't Bane alone turns your "logical" conclusion into a joke.
If you're trying to insinuate that Yoda would be able to use telekinesis against Bane like he would any other regular human (and tell me if you are), I'll only be too happy to directly quote one of your essays on how force users are able to resist the force attacks of others.
Nope. I was just describing power levels here. What did Bane do on his own with the force? Really. He managed to collapse the entrance of a temple (the chain reaction did destroy the rest of the building). Yoda lifted the remains of a mountain sized temple up and force pushed CIS landing vessels around. I'd say that Yoda is quite some levels above Bane when it comes to force mastery / knowledge. So is Sidious. And, if I may remind you, Yoda did quite well in force pushing the Darth Lord of the Sith straight across his office and have him fly over his desk in RotS. So apparently he's very well able to apply such power on force users.
If you're referring to what's said in the Revenge of the Sith novelisation (which is the only source that might appear to directly state as much), here's the exact passage:
To quote you: "Since when do character thoughts mean anything?"
Urm. No. I was referring to various statements about Dooku given by the omniscient narrator as well as other Jedi from the Order (including Mace, Yoda and Jocasta Nu). Dooku was one of the most powerful beings (force wise) that the Jedi Order has produced in the past centuries at last if not in it's entire history (both are quotes given about Dooku). His mastery of form II descriped as the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" and the fact that only Mace and Yoda have ever bested him (before RotS that is) in duels speak quite a lot about his blade mastery.
Yet still Yoda bested him twice...in Dark Rendevouz he even does so on a place completely dominated by the Dark Side while levitating a person mid-air. Yoda is definetely superior to Dooku who happens to be one of the orders best students ever.
Lol, Nai. More like, happens to come to such a belief after seeing, what's hinted at possibly being, a force induced vision, the accuracy of which is never elaborated on. Point being, Dooku didn't form such a conclusion based on how Yoda was able to fight against him, which is quite clearly how you were trying to make it out to be.
Logically spoken you don't even need Dooku's comment to reach such a conclusion. The point is that Yoda can defend himself against most Dark Side techniques, even against somebody more powerful than Dooku and this without using "agressive" force techniques himself. In the RotS movie you can even see how Yoda is about to defeat Sidious by just throwing the attacks of the Sith Lord back at him (this is before both are blown away by the force energies blowing up between them).
Right, because Kas'im (who the much weaker Bane that had yet to obtain the orbalisk armour was able to overwhelm on equal footing), stated to have mastered and spent years perfecting every single form of the lightsaber, and to possibly be the greatest swordsman there had ever been up until that time, who was strong enough in the force to defend himself against an attack that was powerful enough to "shatter every bone in [his] body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid," and who wielded one saber as if he had five of them, is an absolute child compared to Yoda.
Wow. It's astonishing how you completely ignore Kas'ims own comments on how all that training is useless compared to a connection with the force that allows Bane to predict his movements and react to them properly, even without knowing the corresponding manouvers.
Yoda had 900 years (or let's say 850) to perfect the art of lightsaber combat - quite a bit more than Kas'im had and he was perfectly able to defend himself against force attack that instantly killed other force users (Sidious lightning). And wow...force attacks able to destroy bones. Watch the Clone War cartoons. You can see minor Jedi leaving dents in ferrocrete walls with their force push attacks, Dooku crushes solid metal constructions twices (AotC, RotS) and you think that Bane's little attack (damaging a 30,000 year old stone temple) was anything special - or the ability of Kas'im to defend himself against that? Rather funny.