Darth Bane vs Yoda

I mean, Yoda was only the guy who sat on his ass all day and was so out of practise with the ligthsaber that Jedi around the temple hadn't ever seen him with one (Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Yoda's section), and struggled with preventing the fall of a pillar with telekinesis. Man, that guy sure is one God when up against Kas'im. You're absolutely correct Nai.

Lmao. He obviously was so out of practice with a lightsaber that he did defeat Dooku in a sparring match before TPM. Urm. He was so out of practice with a lightsaber, that it was him who gave the Padawans the basic instructions in AotC, right? He was so out of practice with a lightsaber, that he defeated Dooku - who was notorious with keeping his skills up in that department and who can be seen practicing and fighting against several opponents over the PT period and who kept handing Anakin and Obi-Wan (who practiced thousands of hours against each other) their asses - twice. Yes. Sounds like the guy is completely out of practice. Silly me.

And god did he struggle with that pillar. Oh wait. Because he makes some grimasses? One could, of course, assume that he did need a little bit of skill to move across the battlefield first (notice how he arrives in the hangar far before the Clone Troopers), then fight one of the best duellist the order has ever produced. Apparently he doesn't have problems with far greater force use displayed during various sources in the PT. So let's just go by this one freaking instance and by your personal interpretation of the scene - because I don't remember somebody (or a source) saying that Yoda did struggle with the weight of that pillar. Despite the fact that he rather easily moved greater and heavier objects around.

Despite not ever matching him in terms of force displays (refer to what Yoda does during the BoD's force storm ritual)?

I think you mean "what Bane does" and he does exactly the same that Dorskk-81 does when the Jedi are channeling their power. Do you think that a fairly untrained person that did study under Luke for a few months is capable of taking it up with Yoda? Because that's essentially what you're saying here.

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
In a demonstration shown to padawans, rather than a real life battle scenario, absolutely. The point was to show the padawans that force mastery would be a far greater strength than sheer battle adeptness. Prove that the Jedi would have had a problem with planning the demonstration beforehand with the aim to exaggerate the strengths behind sheer force mastery, or drop the point.

Did you watch the movies, pal? Watch Yoda fighting. In the overwhelming majority of situations he's not even in the need to parry the swings of his opponents because they are in most cases not even close to hit him. Why? Because Yoda does exactly the same he does in that demonstration - avoiding opponents through his force mastery.

But we could push this even further. Watch the scene where Obi-Wan and Yoda fight their way to the Jedi Temple in RotS. Yoda deflects more than 40 blaster bolts in less than 4 seconds, aimed at him from 7 different ankles and even finds the time to redirect one of these shots so precisely that it kills one of the Clone Troopers. And you want to tell me that Bane is going to hit him somehow? Nice idea.

Also, those last two points? Irrelevant. Them being master swordsman (I'd like some poof, by the way) does not add to the difficulty of dodging their attacks, where on their part, speed would be the only factor, and neither would Depa's adeptness with Vaapad.

You like to have proof that Depa Billaba is a master swordsman...?
Just to paint a nice image of the situation: You have Yoda standing there...you have three people attacking him with "all they have" and he simply avoids them while "it seemed as if he hardly moved a metre". Of course this might be a nice choreographed scene to explain something to the Padawans. Yet...does that sound like something Yoda would come up with if you consider the methods he trained Luke Skywalker with? Hardly.

Wonderful. Bane was capable of moving at speeds where his lightsaber was described as appearing to be (to the eyes of force users) everywhere at once, where he appeared to be wielding twelve saber at once (to the eyes of the ridiculously powerful Zannah), and so fast that time appeared to stop for all the powerful force user around him (which included Kas'im), where he was able to move so much greater than what they could see.

What powerful force users are you talking about? I'm still looking for some proof that one single member of the BoD (with Bane being the only exception here) was "powerful". In their time? Maybe. In the greater scheme of things? Hardly. You're glorious attempts to say "they are powerful" based on nothing doesn't change that.

And what? Mace Windu was so fast that his movements where "invisible" to a ridiculous powerful force user like Kar Vastor. In fact Mace was capable to hit Vastor six times before the guy could even blink. And guess what? Yoda is faster. Or to use Lucas own words:
"Words are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light." (AotC script) There are words to descripe Bane's skill, huh?

Laughable, given Bane's superior displays in speed, and with the force.

Which did both just happen in your Bane Fanboy Fantasy so I guess that doesn't count as "argument".

Sure, let's just pretend that sheer age for a Jedi Master absolutely correlates with their experience with a lightsaber, and ignore the fact that Yoda was mostly out of practise by the time period we're dealing with.

Let's ignore the "fact" that Yoda in the time we're dealing with (RotS) has just spend three years leading missions in the Clone Wars which translates into "fighting". Right before TPM we had the Ynchorrie uprising, in which Yoda did also participate in. Before that they had the Mandalorian Civil War as well as the Stark Hyperspace war. That aside from countless missions our green friend might have been in. Yet, somehow, he's "out of practice" because the regular students in the Jedi Temple haven't seen him using a lightsaber for a long time? Despite the fact that the on panel evidence given in various sources show us something completely different? Nice talk, dude. Go and do your homework before you start typing.

Which pails is comparison to the way in which [the much weaker armourless] Bane overwhelms Kas'im, who is logically easily above Yoda.

Wow. Let's not forget that Bane hardly managed to escape from the temple when Kas'im used a style that he hadn't seen before. Basically Kas'im kicks him across the place and just gets owned because Bane - in a desperate move - does collapse the temple partitially.

And how would Kas'im be "easily above Yoda"? Because he spend some decades studying the art of lightsaber combat? Dooku did the same for an even longer time period. His comments in the RotS novel show, how good he knows the different lightsaber forms and their respective weak points. We all saw how "superior" he is to the little Jedi Master when it comes to lightsaber combat, didn't we? Mace Windu is another example for a multiple-form expert and he's also not capable of defeating Yoda. The same could be said about Sidious. Apparently it doesn't matter much how many forms you know.

Right, absolutely Nai. Except for the fact that PoD Bane would likely easily defeat Yoda given the way he dominates against Yoda's logical superior, Kas'im.

Urm? Did you read the same book that I have had before my eyes? It's Kas'im that totally dominates the fight and is about to kill Bane before your famed hero uses his superior force potential to collapse a part of the temple. That aside from Kas'im being Yoda's superior is absolute nonsense.

Factor in the obvious improvements in force and lightsaber refinement that Bane went through ten years after PoD, as well as the benefits of the orbalisk armour (near perfect protection, and enhancements to Bane's physical attributes, force strength, energy levels, and senses) as well as the fact that Bane's natural style would be unfamiliar to Yoda (the way Bane grips his saber hilt and angles his blade gives him a unique style that would be unfamiliar to everyone except Kas'im) as would be the way he fights with his orbalisk armour, where he can use parts of his body to defend himself against Yoda's attacks, can take a near fully offensive stance in battle, and can integrate melee attacks into his style like no other, and Ro2 Bane would logically be able to decimate Yoda. Nice not-knowing what you're talking about, though. Truly.

Sure thing, thou great enlightened person.

You are talking about the famed curved hilt design that Bane is using? Wait...can it be that this is the very same design that Dooku prefers? Yoda's former Padawan? The guy he defeated twice? Uhhh...so much for that "advantage".

The orbalisks? You mean the same creatures that started poisoning and weaken him if they were hurt (e.g. by throwing Bane's own lightning back into his face - Yoda's speciality)? Of course we can also ignore the little point saying that the joint places of the orbalisk are vunerable - especially for Yoda who uses a smaller scale lightsaber.

This while Bane has to fight against a very tiny opponent that uses a lightsaber style which focuses on mad muppet aireal accrobatics.

Pwned again Noobaris. This is a daily routine for you.

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
Translation: Before I get back to debating inserting absolutely imaginary pieces of information and adding lame smilies at the end of my posts that make me look like a woman

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
I will proceed to commit a Fallacy of many questions like a moron.

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
Now here's a question for you MadMel: why, in your opinion, do you think that nobody of importance here even acknowledges your existence, whereas the widely considered two best debaters here, Gideon and Advent, have both recognised me as a logical debater? Tell me Melanie, why exactly is that?

What a depressing waste of words.

Pwned again Noobaris. This is a daily routine for you.

Can I ask you a serious question? Do you actually think that you contribute to these discussion's at all?
Because at the moment your rating even lower in my eyes than MadMel(no offence to him) and you have been here for about 3 years longer than him. If this is the best that you can do then I really surgest that you just give up and quit.
😬 😬

Noobaris, I've defeated your every argument since youve been here. I don't need to contribute any more because you rehash the same defeated bullshit. You're a broken record. Enjoy the ban..

The Sad thing is that I'm not actually Neberis. You're just really over the top paranoid.
You are American so I guess its not your fault though....

Are you still typing? Haven't you embarassed yourself enough?

Not yet....

Originally posted by MadMel
insults? thats the best you can come up with? i was kinda expecting an answer..
it appears all you can do is insult people..i guess 30+ bans hasnt improved your manners 😬

There's no need to get upset Melanie..if I recall correctly you were one of those nobodies who started bitching about me before I'd even ever spoken to you..and you were the first to turn to insults in this thread.. difference being that I laugh at you when you hand them out..and you burst into tears when you get them handed to you 😬

1. its not melanie..dont try to guess peoples real names by their screenames..
2. there is a difference between being new to the SW vs. section than being ignored..prove that i am not acknowledged here 😬
3. i know advent said that, but im not so sure about gideon, i thought he just said you arent stupid..

Melanie..nobody here even knows who you are..Gideon's exact words were "very intelligent"..and Advent's the widely considred best debater here 😬

you have still failed to answer my questions...all you managed to accomplish was insult me 😬

I already explained why..I don't respond to Fallacies of many questions 😬

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
There's no need to get upset Melanie..if I recall correctly you were one of those nobodies who started bitching about me before I'd even ever spoken to you..and you were the first to turn to insults in this thread.. difference being that I laugh at you when you hand them out..and you burst into tears when you get them handed to you 😬

Melanie..nobody here even knows who you are..Gideon's exact words were "very intelligent"..and Advent's the widely considred best debater here 😬

I already explained why..I don't respond to Fallacies of many questions 😬

You don't respond to fallacies yet you have yet to come up with a cogent argument throughout your 30+ bans... Interesting..

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh...
"The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day."

This actually shows a development in the Sith Order that started with Bane and culminated in the figure of Sidious. It's an ascension in terms of force knowledge and, with that, force power. An undenyable fact. Hell. We could even use a bit of common sense here. Sidious had access to everything that Bane gathered + the stuff discovered in a thousand years by the Sith and handed down from master to apprentice. Then you have his own studies in addition which included the study of rather "uncommon" force users. It's simply not questionable that Sidious has more knowledge up his sleeve than Bane could possibly have.

Sure it's not, I would never deny that, however substantiate Sidious' superior knowledge in terms of what effect it would have on his power level. As Illustrious mentioned, when a force user gains a certain extreme level of force knowledge, there would logically be diminishing returns with its effect on a force user's strength. You also make force knowledge out to be directly proportional with power, which is not only begging for proof, but really quite ridiculous when you put things into perspective, as it has no effect on a force user's strength, or control, but rather the ways in which they can unleash their power.

If anything, when a force user with a relative low level of force knowledge amasses a large knowledge base, they are occasionally shown to develop a much higher level of power, but again, you've yet to prove what effect it would have when a being already has access to a large base of knowledge.

...and of course, none of what you just said changes the fact that there is no undeniable proof that Sidious > Bane (which is what your original ABC argument was relying on).

We could add Sidious' own display of force powers or battle prowess here.

We could, but not only have you not really elaborated on that, there's absolutely nothing that compares to what I've already posted for Bane.

And then one might ask the question how Bane does even remotely compare to Sidious. What has Bane ever done except owning a few deluded Sith Lords who were too proud to accept the teachings of the Ancient Sith and as smart as a dead starfish?

Bane actually only ever really owns one Sith Lord, Quordis (who pre-retcon was actually extremely powerful, but that's irrelevant anyway), for the record, but even then, how exactly does the fact that they were too proud to accept the Ancient's teachings, or the fact that they were "as smart as a dead starfish" detract from their level of power? The NSO was the most militaristic order of Force Users there's ever shown to be, and originally numbering in the thousands, were eventually molded into a much smaller force due to the near constant war that the era provided. The smaller BoD would have logically had a relative high concentration of power based on that alone (given how war sorts out the weak from the strong), so I fail to see how they're somehow weak like the majority of users here like to believe. The fact that it only took Bane and twenty five Sith Lords alone to generate a planet destroying level of energy makes it quite clear that as a collective group, they were extremely powerful.

I'd also like to remind you that the Sith Lord ownage on his part was never part of my argument. That alone doesn't make him more powerful than Sidious. What does is his performance during the BoD's force storm ritual.

Sure. Bane was the most powerful figure in his own time

Let's not hold back now. His power was stated to be far greater than the entire combined power of the BoD. So he wasn't just the most powerful figure in his time, he was so far beyond anyone in his era that it's not even funny.

but still far away from Sidious knowledge,

Which means what?

combat prowess

You keep on saying this, but have yet to support it in any way. Try doing that.

or the track record of the movies DLotS.

LOL. The Movie DLOTS were beyond pathetic in power when compared to the likes of Darth Caedus, Bane, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, and the top dogs of the Ancient Sith. They haven't performed anything even close to what the above mentioned have, and have shown visible limitations. You really need to stop overrating the low level Count Dooku level combatants of the SW Mythos.

Woah. He didn't absorb force lightning. He did just channel the combined force energy of those Sith Lords. It's not as if he was attacked by them and simply stood there with a grin on his face, yelling "Yo,freaks. You can't mess with the best."

Yes, he did absorb lightning, as shown in the JvS comics (I would scan the page or give you a link to it if I had access to the comic), and briefly referred to in PoD.

"Bane stood at the eye of the storm, drawing the bolts of lightning into himself, feeding on them." - PoD, PG 284-285.

As I explained to Lightsnake, the fact that the Sith Lords willingly gave him their power doesn't change the facts that:

a) the lethal nature of the lightning would have remained the same.

b) that Bane had to absorb the lightning.

Bane was simply powerful enough to do that, which is what makes his performance as the vessel of the ritual so impressive.

It's basically the same that Dorskk-81 did with Luke's students to drive a fleet of enemy starships out of Yavin's solar system.

No it's not, as the way Bane was forced to receive the power is testament to a high level of strength, which cannot be said for what Dorskk-81 did.

LMAO.
Excuse me, friend. You have, of course, read the DE comics and you are, of course, aware of the fact that Sidious alone produced more devastating effects with his force storms, right?

Firstly, Palpatine's Force Storms can only, for sure, tear at the surface of planets, and destroy fleets, whereas the energy that Bane contained within himself could have potentially destroyed an entire Planet. Hell, the ritual isn't even exclusive to Palpatine; both Nadd and a number of unelaborated on Ancient Sith and Jedi were all capable of performing them.

Secondly, Palpatine has not displayed the control to use them on such a small scale where it would be effective against Bane in a versus battle scenario. Now that wouldn't matter so much if the way he summoned them or controlled them actually spoke for his level of power or control, but sadly, they don't. By Palpatine's own words, the way in which they're summonsed is ritualistic.

"When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very centre of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm, and the savagery of a beast.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released-the energies of the dark side of the Force." – The Essential Guide to the Force, Pg 179.

As is clear, the power of the Force Storm is not Palpatine’s own. It’s a ritual that unlocks the source of such a large amount power, and one that required minimal strength to be able to perform.

So it’s clear that it speaks nothing for Palpatine’s power. As for control, from the TotJ Companion, PG 60, when describing the effect of force storms: “The power also allows limited control of these storms.” The power itself grants Palpatine limited control (which is all the control that he possessed over them) over them.

So, to recap, as a feat, it’s useless in this scenario, is not testament to a level of force power or mastery, and isn’t even exclusive to Palpatine. It’s worthless to bring up in any scenario except where Palpatine might use them from a distance. This is actually ridiculous coming from you given that you’ve acknowledged this in the past, when using it as an example when trying to downplay the power it might require to pull a moon out of orbit.

That without needing another 20 Sith Lords to grant him their power to archieve something like that?

Something greater.

The mere fact that it wasn't Bane alone turns your "logical" conclusion into a joke.

Look, nobody tried to attribute the destructive power of the ritual directly to Bane’s level of power, because that would be silly, however it doesn’t change the fact that he still possessed the power to absorb the energy and contain it, and the mastery to re-direct it across an entire planet.

Nope. I was just describing power levels here. What did Bane do on his own with the force?

Exactly what I mentioned regarding the BoD’s Force Storm Ritual. All of that was done under his own ability.

Really. He managed to collapse the entrance of a temple (the chain reaction did destroy the rest of the building).

1. One of his lesser feats.

2. Actually, it’s made clear that the mere shockwaves of the attack affected the entirety of the foundations of the temple.

Yoda lifted the remains of a mountain sized temple up and force pushed CIS landing vessels around.

Performed in a cartoon full of inconsistent (to other material) power levels. You can’t use feats from the exaggerated Cartoons whilst ignoring consistently displayed limitations from a higher form of canon.

I'd say that Yoda is quite some levels above Bane when it comes to force mastery / knowledge. So is Sidious.

Perhaps if you only consider one of Bane’s lower feats and ignore displayed limitations from the highest form of canon.

But when taking into account the fact that Bane was able to absorb and contain energy capable of wiping out an entire planet, and direct it on a planetwide scale, he’s leagues beyond them.

And, if I may remind you, Yoda did quite well in force pushing the Darth Lord of the Sith straight across his office and have him fly over his desk in RotS. So apparently he's very well able to apply such power on force users.

I didn’t say that he couldn’t apply such power against other force users, I just wanted to make sure that you weren’t ignoring the fact that there’s a difference between using a certain attack on a regular object, and using a certain attack on a being that can defend against them.

Urm. No. I was referring to various statements about Dooku given by the omniscient narrator

Give a source and provide a quote, or drop the point. The passage that I posted is the only one where Dooku’s power, in respect to the entire history of the Order, is noted, to my knowledge.

as well as other Jedi from the Order (including Mace, Yoda and Jocasta Nu).

To quote you: "Since when do character thoughts mean anything?" 😂

Really though, prove that the mentioned characters are in a position to factually make such a remark, and post a quote, or drop the point.

Dooku was one of the most powerful beings (force wise) that the Jedi Order has produced in the past centuries at last if not in it's entire history (both are quotes given about Dooku).

“Give a source and provide a quote, or drop the point.”

His mastery of form II descriped as the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat"

Lol. The form itself is described in such a way.

and the fact that only Mace and Yoda have ever bested him (before RotS that is) in duels speak quite a lot about his blade mastery.

We don’t even know if that’s the case, but either way, nobody’s denying his ability in respect to his era. However, when you make a claim such as the one you did, regarding his ability in respect to the entire history of the Jedi Order, you need to provide solid proof.

Yet still Yoda bested him twice...in Dark Rendevouz he even does so on a place completely dominated by the Dark Side while levitating a person mid-air.

I’d question exactly to what degree the Planet enhanced Dooku’s powers. Whilst Yoda was obviously shown to be superior in their AotC duel, he didn’t completely overwhelm him, and that was on equal footing, which leads me to believe that the dark side enhancements of the world can’t have been too great. Also, Yoda was only levitating an Old Woman at the beginning of his duel with Dooku. He wasn’t levitating her the entire time.

Yoda is definetely superior to Dooku who happens to be one of the orders best students ever.

Provide proof, or quit bringing this up.

Logically spoken you don't even need Dooku's comment to reach such a conclusion.

How exactly? Whilst the darkside would certainly make Yoda more deadly and such, nothing suggests that it would actually technically make him more powerful (such an idea would be silly), and he hardly displays a level of power that might imply that he could possibly be a threat to the entire Galaxy. He’s not Darth Nihilus.

The point is that Yoda can defend himself against most Dark Side techniques,

That was the point? I thought the point was how much of a threat he would be as a darksider… and no, being able to defend against a few offensive techniques in no way indicates that he would be able to defend against most of them, not to mention if they were being performed by someone more powerful.

even against somebody more powerful than Dooku and this without using "agressive" force techniques himself.

Irrelevant. Not using offensive technique does not add to the difficulty of defending against them.

In the RotS movie you can even see how Yoda is about to defeat Sidious by just throwing the attacks of the Sith Lord back at him (this is before both are blown away by the force energies blowing up between them).

About to defeat Sidious? Completely imaginary on your part. And big deal, he can effectively re-direct Sidious’ attacks; substantiate Sidious’ level of power and prove that what Yoda does is impressive when dealing with titans like Bane.

Wow. It's astonishing how you completely ignore Kas'ims own comments on how all that training is useless compared to a connection with the force that allows Bane to predict his movements and react to them properly, even without knowing the corresponding manouvers.

No.

“As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the force. The force allows you to anticipate your opponent’s moves and counter them with your own. But the more options your foe has available, the more difficult it is to predict which will be chosen.” –PoD, PG 150.

Kas’im’s own words say you’re wrong, as does how much of an advantage Kas’im’s technique in Jar’Kai proved to be against Bane.

Also, you’re working under double standards given the way in which you were talking about Dooku’s Makashi technique.

Point is, Kas’im’s technical ability is unequalled by any known swordsman in the SW Mythos, and it’s an enormous advantage, and his speed and force strength is also pretty amazing. He’s easily beyond Yoda.

Yoda had 900 years (or let's say 850) to perfect the art of lightsaber combat - quite a bit more than Kas'im had

You’re again asserting that Yoda’s age correlates with how much time he spent training with his lightsaber, without offering proof. The demonstration that was shown to the padawans that I earlier brought up should tell you how Yoda viewed sheer battle adeptness in comparison to force mastery, and nothing points to him relying on anything other than that when it came to battle. You’re also ignoring the fact that Yoda hadn’t ever even been seen with his lightsaber by any single being, and was clearly out of practice, as well as the fact that the Jedi of the time didn’t actually even highly value duelling techniques, nor was there any real need for a Jedi Grand Master to train in the art of battle when the era was as peaceful as it was up until TPM. Now it’s possible that with the return of the Sith, Yoda might have felt the need to start training himself for battle again, but even then, that would only have to be 13 years anyway, and you’ve yet to prove that Yoda would have felt that he needed to work on his technique when his level of force mastery was as high as it was.

and he was perfectly able to defend himself against force attack that instantly killed other force users (Sidious lightning).

Not RotS Sidious, and only ever done to my knowledge against the Prophets of the darkside, where they were most likely caught off guard given the fact that Sidious wasn’t even a hostile threat to their knowledge. Nothing in the comic indicates that they were killed instantly, either.

And wow...force attacks able to destroy bones.

“But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to block the attack.” – PoD, PG 245.

As can be seen, the attack would have instantly killed Kas’im, making it easily as impressive as what Sidious was able to do given it would have decimated Kas’im’s entire body.

Watch the Clone War cartoons.

The same cartoons where the lowly Asajj Ventress and Anakin Skywalker (those specific incarnations being lowly) were able to outperform Yoda’s force display in AotC? Right.

You can see minor Jedi leaving dents in ferrocrete walls with their force push attacks, Dooku crushes solid metal constructions twices (AotC, RotS) and you think that Bane's little attack (damaging a 30,000 year old stone temple) was anything special - or the ability of Kas'im to defend himself against that? Rather funny.

Given that force defence is where the darkside is at its weakest, and the fact that the attack would have instantly shattered his bones and pulverised his flesh, hells yes.

As for Bane’s attack, that was only the middle section, and it was the outer sections that were able to destroy the temple (which was done by directly affecting the entirety of its foundations). The age of the temple is also explicitly mentioned not to have had an effect on the stability of the temple. So yeah, I would consider it far more impressive than all that stuff that you mentioned, not that it’s even worth analysing as it’s nowhere near Bane’s highest showing. Not surprised that you’re focusing on it like you are, though.

Lmao. He obviously was so out of practice with a lightsaber that he did defeat Dooku in a sparring match before TPM.

I believe that you’re confusing Dooku with Mace, here, and please, one sparring match doesn’t change the fact that he was “mostly” out of practise, as is evident by what’s said in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook under his very section: “Yoda was opposed to unnecessary violence, and no one had seen his lightsaber in years.” (referring to a short time before TPM). Meaning, during those times, his experience consisted of -- at best – private practise on his own or with a droid remote. Hardly the man when it came to duelling. Now as I said, sure, it’s possible that he may have trained hard with the return of the Sith (though you have yet to prove that), but the point is, those eight centuries are mostly worthless given the fact that he was out of practise, at one point, and had to get back into it and possibly train hard for about 13 years.

Urm. He was so out of practice with a lightsaber, that it was him who gave the Padawans the basic instructions in AotC, right?

Which consisted of what? Whipping out his saber and sparring with them? Or what’s shown – that being guiding them with words rather than physically using his lightsaber to get them to work on their skills? I’d go with option two.

He was so out of practice with a lightsaber, that he defeated Dooku - who was notorious with keeping his skills up in that department and who can be seen practicing and fighting against several opponents over the PT period and who kept handing Anakin and Obi-Wan (who practiced thousands of hours against each other) their asses - twice. Yes. Sounds like the guy is completely out of practice. Silly me.

This is beyond ridiculous. Your evidence here is relying on the idea that Yoda must have been practising regularly with a saber to be able to compete with someone that was, whilst ignoring that his main strength: his force mastery, is an obvious advantage that he has over Dooku that could easily compensate for a possible lack of technique.

And god did he struggle with that pillar. Oh wait. Because he makes some grimasses?

No, because his entire body wouldn’t stop shaking. That’s what you’d call a visible indications of a struggle.

One could, of course, assume that he did need a little bit of skill to move across the battlefield first (notice how he arrives in the hangar far before the Clone Troopers),

Elaborate.

then fight one of the best duellist the order has ever produced.

Provide proof or quit bringing this up.

Apparently he doesn't have problems with far greater force use displayed during various sources in the PT.

Material of lesser canon, known to be inconsistent as far as power levels are concerned…

So let's just go by this one freaking instance

There’s also an obvious struggle with flinging back the senate Pod that was dropping down on him at no considerable speed. So that would be two instances, actually. Both from the highest form of canon (before you bring up what he does in ANH with the X-Wing, that was years later, with all the time in the world to further his mastery of the force).

and by your personal interpretation of the scene - because I don't remember somebody (or a source) saying that Yoda did struggle with the weight of that pillar.

Quit being ridiculous. He shows obvious signs of a struggle, and thus a clear limitation in force power. No canon statement is necessary, as there would be no other reason that his body would have shaken like it did unless he was being pushed to his limits.

Despite the fact that he rather easily moved greater and heavier objects around.

In material of lesser canon, known to be inconsistent as far as power levels are concerned…

I think you mean "what Bane does" and he does exactly the same that Dorskk-81 does when the Jedi are channeling their power. Do you think that a fairly untrained person that did study under Luke for a few months is capable of taking it up with Yoda? Because that's essentially what you're saying here.

No, it’s not, because your comparison is absolutely off given the methods between what Bane and Dorskk-81 are completely different, not to mention the power that was given to Bane was far above that given to Dorskk-81.

Did you watch the movies, pal?

No, I stick to the comics and novels. I’ve never watched a single Star Wars movie.

Watch Yoda fighting. In the overwhelming majority of situations he's not even in the need to parry the swings of his opponents because they are in most cases not even close to hit him. Why? Because Yoda does exactly the same he does in that demonstration - avoiding opponents through his force mastery.

1. If he actually did show the exact same level of skill in the movies, then bringing up what he did in the novel was pointless on your part.

2. Your comparison is, as usual, completely off. In the demonstration, he was able to literally dodge three simultaneous attacks, completely effortlessly, and barely moving his body. What he does in the movies required effort, and he never has to block three simultaneous attacks at once.

But we could push this even further. Watch the scene where Obi-Wan and Yoda fight their way to the Jedi Temple in RotS. Yoda deflects more than 40 blaster bolts in less than 4 seconds, aimed at him from 7 different ankles and even finds the time to redirect one of these shots so precisely that it kills one of the Clone Troopers. And you want to tell me that Bane is going to hit him somehow? Nice idea.

Irregardless of the fact that defending against blaster fire is nowhere near as demanding as going up against a Sith Lord (ranged attacks are easier to predict and defend than saber attacks, and Force Users can move far faster than blaster bolts), I think you need to fully consider exactly how fast those descriptions make Bane out to be. Even to my non force sensitive eyes, Yoda is never shown to move as if people around him are frozen, or leave some insane amount of afterimages (and Yoda is completely done in CGI, so you have no medium limitation arguments here), yet that’s exactly what Bane can, to the eyes of Force Users.

You like to have proof that Depa Billaba is a master swordsman...?

Plo Koon and Saesee Tinn as well, thanks. Do that, or quit making shit up.

Just to paint a nice image of the situation: You have Yoda standing there...you have three people attacking him with "all they have" and he simply avoids them while "it seemed as if he hardly moved a metre". Of course this might be a nice choreographed scene to explain something to the Padawans. Yet...does that sound like something Yoda would come up with if you consider the methods he trained Luke Skywalker with? Hardly.

What methods would those be? Elaborate. I’d hardly put it past Yoda to slightly twist something with the intent being a good one. Now undeniably prove that the Jedi wouldn’t have done that, or drop the point.

What powerful force users are you talking about? I'm still looking for some proof that one single member of the BoD (with Bane being the only exception here) was "powerful". In their time? Maybe. In the greater scheme of things? Hardly. You're glorious attempts to say "they are powerful" based on nothing doesn't change that.

“The NSO was the most militaristic order of Force Users there's ever shown to be, and originally numbering in the thousands, were eventually molded into a much smaller force due to the near constant war that the era provided. The smaller BoD would have logically had a relative high concentration of power based on that alone (given how war sorts out the weak from the strong), so I fail to see how they're somehow weak like the majority of users here like to believe. The fact that it only took Bane and twenty five Sith Lords alone to generate a planet destroying level of energy makes it quite clear that as a collective group, they were extremely powerful.”

And what? Mace Windu was so fast that his movements where "invisible" to a ridiculous powerful force user like Kar Vastor. In fact Mace was capable to hit Vastor six times before the guy could even blink.

Now you’re just being ridiculous. Mace Windu and Kar Vastor were not engaged in a battle at the time. They were talking, Mace says something like “This is Vaapad” IIRC, and suddenly uses some force speed to attack Kar Vastor with six punches. You might as well use the way Obi-Wan moves in TPM to flee from those destroyed droids as evidence for how fast he could fight in a lightsaber duel.

And guess what? Yoda is faster. Or to use Lucas own words:
"Words are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light." (AotC script) There are words to descripe Bane's skill, huh?

Right, because a “humming blur of light” is so far beyond the kind of afterimage that would make it appear that Bane’s lightsaber was everywhere at once, to the eyes of force users. Please.

And whilst Yoda might be faster, when you factor in Vaapad, that’s not necessarily going to be the case, so even if your example was anything other than worthless, he was still drawing on the dark side power of someone with a force connection on the level of Yoda, Sidious, or Anakin.

Which did both just happen in your Bane Fanboy Fantasy so I guess that doesn't count as "argument".

Right. Except for the fact that by virtue of description, Bane’s performed levels of speed are beyond anything we see from Yoda.

Let's ignore the "fact" that Yoda in the time we're dealing with (RotS) has just spend three years leading missions in the Clone Wars which translates into "fighting".

Please. His participation in the Clone Wars was minimal, as is evident by the fact that he’s stated in numerous sources to have remained in the Temple near constantly, being a Senior Member of the Jedi Council. Off of the top of my head, it’s stated pretty early on in Dark Rendezvous. He’s seen in a few, sure, but even then, he’s mostly only shown to be a behind the scenes military leader, rather than a frontline general.

Right before TPM we had the Ynchorrie uprising, in which Yoda did also participate in. Before that they had the Mandalorian Civil War as well as the Stark Hyperspace war.

Now you’re just blatantly lying. He wasn’t a part of any of those small time incidents.

That aside from countless missions our green friend might have been in.

Wow. Persuasive. Might have been in. Fortunately the burden of proof isn’t on you to provide some solid proof. Oh wait…

Yet, somehow, he's "out of practice" because the regular students in the Jedi Temple haven't seen him using a lightsaber for a long time?

As I said, after looking back at the Sourcebook, the exact words were “no-one.”

Despite the fact that the on panel evidence given in various sources show us something completely different? Nice talk, dude. Go and do your homework before you start typing.

Right. Except we have what’s said in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook which would indicate that Yoda hadn’t even trained with another being for years up until the return of the Sith.

Then we have the thirteen year period following that, where his experience in the Clone Wars was clearly minimal, as is clear from what’s said in Dark Rendezous. And even then, how would that kind of experience for Yoda even be working on his technique? It would be like having Goku fight (with the aim to quickly kill) a bunch of regular beings, and claim that the experience would benefit his martial arts skill, despite the fact that his speed and strength would have done all the work.

Now it’s possible that he might have started to train and work on his technique to fully prepare himself for the Sith threat, but not only have you not provided any proof for that, it’s completely illogical given that he is shown to only ever rely on his force mastery (speed, agility) in battle, and viewed it as being infinitely greater than technique, and even then, he would have most likely had to start from scratch given how out of practise he had been before TPM.

Kas’im, on the other hand, trained with the sole purpose of making his technique as good as it could possibly be. He spent years mastering the forms, and decades perfecting them. He did all of that for dual sabers and the saberstaff as well. Factor in the fact that his speed and force ability is in the very least comparable to Yoda’s, and he’s logically his firm superior.

And Bane was able to dominate him on equal footing, implying his overall ability is far beyond his. Add in the decade’s worth of improvement, the orbalisk armour, and his unique style, and Yoda would get decimated.

Wow. Let's not forget that Bane hardly managed to escape from the temple when Kas'im used a style that he hadn't seen before. Basically Kas'im kicks him across the place and just gets owned because Bane - in a desperate move - does collapse the temple partitially.

Irrelevant misdirection. Kas’im possessed an unfair advantage over Bane that Yoda wouldn’t. What is relavent is how Bane performed against him on equal footing, as that’s the only way their relative ability can be compared.

And how would Kas'im be "easily above Yoda"? Because he spend some decades studying the art of lightsaber combat?

His talent was obviously extraordinary given that he was able to master all 7 forms in several years for three weapons, and become the greatest swordsman ever at a pretty young age (as is evident by physical descriptions). The decades were spent perfecting the forms, and given Kas’im’s obvious talent, it can be logically assumed that his improvement rate in those ten years would be far greater than that of others.

Dooku did the same for an even longer time period.

Doesn’t matter. Dedication and talent can make up for a lack of a certain number of years of training. Dooku obviously never mastered the lightsaber anywhere near the degree that Kas’im did, making your downplayment worthless.

His comments in the RotS novel show, how good he knows the different lightsaber forms and their respective weak points. We all saw how "superior" he is to the little Jedi Master when it comes to lightsaber combat, didn't we?

Claiming to know a few of the forms’ weak points really means little. Bane knew how to counter every move and combination there was to the double bladed lightsaber. Doesn’t mean that he could wield the weapon with any major effect, and Dooku certainly never displays anything other than Makashi in any of his duels.

Mace Windu is another example for a multiple-form expert and he's also not capable of defeating Yoda.

Speaking in terms of technique, Vaapad was essentially Juyo -- which incorporated manoeuvres from a number of different styles -- with a few extra combinations of Windu’s own invention. This doesn’t make him a Master of multiple forms, and even then, Kas’im is way beyond such a title. He mastered and spent decades perfecting every form, for three types of lightsabers.

The same could be said about Sidious.

What are you talking about? Since when was Sidious a Master of multiple forms? Since when is there even proof that he had used a lightsaber since becoming the Chancellor?

Apparently it doesn't matter much how many forms you know.

If we were to go by your absurd comparison, perhaps.

Urm? Did you read the same book that I have had before my eyes? It's Kas'im that totally dominates the fight and is about to kill Bane before your famed hero uses his superior force potential to collapse a part of the temple. That aside from Kas'im being Yoda's superior is absolute nonsense.

Read the first part of the fight, aka the only relevant part of the fight in this debate, aka the part of the fight where they’re both on equal footing. Bane completely dominates Kas’im, keeping him completely on the defensive, where Kas’im is described as turning to desperation, and eventually just flat out gives up a tries to flee.

And Kas’im’s easily Yoda’s superior, given his far greater technical ability, and comparable speed and force ability.

Sure thing, thou great enlightened person.

You are talking about the famed curved hilt design that Bane is using? Wait...can it be that this is the very same design that Dooku prefers? Yoda's former Padawan? The guy he defeated twice? Uhhh...so much for that "advantage".

I wasn’t referring to the hilt, as was quite clear, but the unique way in which he grips it, and angles the blade. Stated by the omniscient narrator to be Bane’s personal, unique style. Kas’im’s the only one who would be prepared against it.

The orbalisks? You mean the same creatures that started poisoning and weaken him if they were hurt (e.g. by throwing Bane's own lightning back into his face - Yoda's speciality)?

Way to ignore the protection, enhancements, and unique style that the orbalisks give Bane, and focus on something that relies on a) Bane initiating a force lightning attack, and b) Yoda being able to defend himself against it.

Of course we can also ignore the little point saying that the joint places of the orbalisk are vunerable - especially for Yoda who uses a smaller scale lightsaber.

Since when is Yoda’s lightsaber smaller than any other in anything other than length? Sounds pretty made up to me. Either way, the joints are far too small to allow a lethal blow to land in, and the orbalisks heal near intantly.

This while Bane has to fight against a very tiny opponent that uses a lightsaber style which focuses on mad muppet aireal accrobatics.

The mad muppet style is a pretty good advantage, I must say, but hardly compares to Bane’s when you take into account that not only is his grip and blade angle unique to him, but he can integrate melee attacks into his lightsaber style, and take a near fully offensive stance in battle, both without having to properly defend himself.

Bane’s overall lightsaber ability without factoring the orbalisk protection in is logically far above Yoda’s, given his domination of Kas’im on equal footing, and his extreme improvement and enhancements beyond that point, and the orbalisk protection makes him exponentially more deadly. Yoda gets curbstomped, bad

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You don't respond to fallacies yet you have yet to come up with a cogent argument throughout your 30+ bans... Interesting..

Wow, you waited an entire minute this time. 😂

That must have been hard.

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
Melanie

Do you guys ever sleep?
How come your all still up at 6 in the morning?

Oh wait. Time difference. Yeah.....

Judging from Mutant Messiah's points its clear that Bane overwelms Yoda with the Force.

To back up my allies points

Point is, Kas’im’s technical ability is unequalled by any known swordsman in the SW Mythos, and it’s an enormous advantage, and his speed and force strength is also pretty amazing. He’s easily beyond Yoda.

As seen when he effortlessly demolised the mighty Rancour, something that the "saber God" Skywalker was too scared to even attempt. The only one who even mildly equates to Kas'im was Tulak Hord and we only have one statement from Kriea on his skill. She is one tough lady(loosely) to impress though.

You mean the same creatures that started poisoning and weaken him if they were hurt

Which is irrelevant considering that, by the grace of Revan, Bane can completley resist all poisons. The only reason that he didn't do this in the first place was because he was rendered unconcious by his own power.

You really need to stop overrating the low level Count Dooku level combatants of the SW Mythos.

Whose greatest shown feat of power was when he ripped that balcony of the wall(clumsily) in ROTS.
I'm pretty sure that even that wasn't his doing (Sisious)

Yoda had 900 years (or let's say 850) to perfect the art of lightsaber combat - quite a bit more than Kas'im had

Which makes him actually more perfetic really. Given that Kas'im was the best ever and that Bane was able to demolish him after only about a year of training (as opposed to Yoda's 850 at the end of which he struggled against Dooku who Anakin beat simply by wanting to). Add on to that his extra 10 years of training with his extreme learning rate and Bane actually does rape him ( he is sick after all)

What are you talking about? Since when was Sidious a Master of multiple forms? Since when is there even proof that he had used a lightsaber since becoming the Chancellor?

Good point. If the Chancellor did practise during that time wouldn't the Jedi be able to sense his use of the Force?

Enjoy the ban to you and your sock Noobaris, you still can't debate.