Originally posted by SquallX
I did read what you wrote, and i still stand by what I said.Even if Kal spams freeze breath, that's not gonna give him a 10/10.
A serious Diana is far more dangerous than a serious kal, because Diana would be bringing her gears to this fight and she would go for the kill.
You right! It would give him 1000/10 spite.
All he has to do it is freeze her, then hit the soul out of her. Then refreeze her and hit another soul out of her (if she still has some more left). Repeat until it is done. Easiest and funnest fight Superman would ever have.
Like I said, I don't believe Superman will fight like that. And thus he's not getting 10/10.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Actually Rucka said that using HV drained him. That's why the first HV seared her to the bone and then she was able to shove her thumbs in his eyes without burning.http://comicboards.com/php/show.php?msg=comicbattles-2005072909412400&layout=subject&window=yes
The writer himself says he wasn't amped and it was never even implied. So why would we assume he was amped?
So you want to pass the sun proximity off as artist error, but at the same time, you want to argue that Superman somehow warped an indestructible object by squeezing through it and crushing Diana's wrist. Not that he simply grabbed the uncovered part of her wrist and broke that?
Originally posted by abhilegend
Top tiers don't break top tier bones with just squeezing. Not by squeezing through an indestructible object. I can't picture Superman breaking Captain Marvel or Orion's bones like that.
I never said Diana was as durable as Orion, did I? She's a low herald, he's a high herald. There is a strength and durability gap. The gap just doesn't need to be as large as you seem to think it is, is all i'm saying.
hell, I can snap someone's wrist by twisting it the wrong way. Not Brock Lesnar, but an average person? Sure.
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I don't know if I'd go as far to say that Diana was "winning," but she bought herself enough time to think of a solution, and that was her goal imo.Personally, I think her only options were killing Max or killing Superman. She tried the lasso and she couldn't ensnare him. Sure, she could have kept trying, but there was a pretty good change he would have killed her before she finally got it around him.
I don't know whether he was amped or not, but he was certainly not holding back, which accounts for the brutality of his attacks.
I've always maintained that Diana can stay with Clark, but she would have a hard time ko'ing him. His durability and strength along with his other powers just make it very, very difficult. That being said, her weaponry does give her kill options, but when would she ever use those?
The Sacrifice story just showed me that she can take a hell of a beating and dish it back. I don't think it is indicative of how a normal fight would go between the two of them. I also don't think it showed that Clark is so far above her that she is without options.
I agree with most of what you said. As much as we might disagree, I'm glad there are times when we don't. 👆
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your reasoning is too short term.The problem at the point where Diana snapped Max's neck was not the immediate threat Superman posed.
The problem was that Max could reassert control at ANY time in the future, under any circumstances.
This is made fairly explicit in the story, or at least in Wonder Woman v2. #219, where this fight took place.Click the following link and re-read what you seem to have missed, please:
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/bluewaterrider/library/kmc/why%20max%20got%20nixed?sort=9&page=1
The funny part is, I actually took that in to account when I spoke. Your post actually helps me.
Diana killed Max because he could take over Superman again at any time. If Diana was capable of beating/containing Superman, then control or not, Max didn't need to die. Yet she killed him.
Originally posted by -Pr-
The funny part is, I actually took that in to account when I spoke. Your post actually helps me.
😬
Helps you do WHAT exactly?
You're still writing as if you'd not read I word I put down.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Diana killed Max because he could take over Superman again at any time.
Correct.
Originally posted by -Pr-
If Diana was capable of beating/containing Superman, then control or not, Max didn't need to die. Yet she killed him.
You're not making much sense.
Diana isn't the only person a rogue Superman threatens. Nor is she with Superman 24/7. Nor can she predict WHEN he will go out of control.
Superman killing Batman and the rest of her friends in the JLA while she's away, say, on Themyscira, is no more acceptable than herself going down if caught at an inopportune moment.
And Diana was capable of beating Superman in Sacrifice.
She proved it to Max by doing so.
That's why she's not dead.
I don't know why you're pretending a loose cannon has to be objectively stronger than their opponent to be a threat, either. As member of a team that relies often on high-level cooperation to succeed in their dangerous missions, Superman would need to have no more objective menace than Batman to remain a constant and deadly threat to his friends.
How quickly does the tide of battle go against the JLA once one of their own turns in the following example, for instance?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😬Helps you do WHAT exactly?
You're still writing as if you'd not read I word I put down.Correct.
You're not making much sense.
Diana isn't the only person a rogue Superman threatens. Nor is she with Superman 24/7. Nor can she predict WHEN he will go out of control.
Superman killing Batman and the rest of her friends in the JLA while she's away, say, on Themyscira, is no more acceptable than herself going down if caught at an inopportune moment.And Diana was capable of beating Superman in Sacrifice.
She proved it to Max by doing so.
That's why she's not dead.I don't know why you're pretending a loose cannon has to be objectively stronger than their opponent to be a threat, either. As member of a team that relies often on high-level cooperation to succeed in their dangerous missions, Superman would need to have no more objective menace than Batman to remain a constant and deadly threat to his friends.
How quickly does the tide of battle go against the JLA once one of their own turns in the following example, for instance?
I read your post in its entirety. What did I miss exactly?
I'm not sure you've been reading my posts any more than you believe I've been reading yours.
You're saying that if Max controls Superman, he'll endanger others. No argument there. Yet you're also saying that Diana could beat Superman? Then why not do so and put him in containment and let J'onn help purge his mind? Or put down Superman long enough to put Max somewhere where his telepathy can't hurt anyone?
Do you not see the contradiction there? Or do you really think she'd put Max in a normal prison and just act like nothing happened? That nobody would go in to Superman's mind and figure out what's going on? Even if Max believed he could go in to Superman's mind and assert control at any time (which is frankly ludicrous given what Superman has mentally resisted), how do we even know it's true? Max believing it to be true doesn't make it so.
I'm not pretending anything. Why would you think that I am?
Not sure how that example is relevant. Mind telling me how it is?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is WW a low herald? I thought she was mid-high, given the close fights she's given Supes and Shazam on a few occasions?
LOL. She's never given Superman a close fight. The Sacrifice fight is the only one that lasted more than a few panels and even though she may've gotten a technical victory the fight itself proves how far above her he actually is. Also, the only reason she got that so-called "victory" is because Clark was hallucinating. If you look closely at the entire fight and not just the ending you'll realize that she's not in his league. Nor Captain Marvel's either, imo. Feel free to post some scans though of her "having close fights" with him and I might change my mind.
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
[B]LIES! [/B]
Well, from what I've understood there's always been a mild difference between mid herald and high herald.
Captain Marvel more or less always stalemates Superman and BRB is more or less Thor's equal. They don't, however, have Superman or Thor's high-end feats. Feats that are sort of inherent to being the main character of a comic.
Same goes for Orion.
Granted, most people in high herald would destroy him, but whatever 😛
Originally posted by Star428
LOL. She's never given Superman a close fight. The Sacrifice fight is the only one that lasted more than a few panels and even though she may've gotten a technical victory the fight itself proves how far above her he actually is. Also, the only reason she got that so-called "victory" is because Clark was hallucinating. If you look closely at the entire fight and not just the ending you'll realize that she's not in his league. Nor Captain Marvel's either, imo. Feel free to post some scans though of her "having close fights" with him and I might change my mind.
Calm down, I'm not saying she's their equal. Just going by how she is generally portrayed next to them I would have assumed she's mid-high tier herself. Low herald just seems a bit low for her Imho.
Btw what was the last fight between Shazam and WW and how did that turn out?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Calm down, I'm not saying she's their equal. Just going by how she is generally portrayed next to them I would have assumed she's mid-high tier herself. Low herald just seems a bit low for her Imho.Btw what was the last fight between Shazam and WW and how did that turn out?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Calm down, I'm not saying she's their equal. Just going by how she is generally portrayed next to them I would have assumed she's mid-high tier herself. Low herald just seems a bit low for her Imho.Btw what was the last fight between Shazam and WW and how did that turn out?
I am calm.
I guess you all didn't read what Max was saying to Diana. If she didn't kill him he would have kept repeating the process of controlling Superman. No one has the time to keep sitting there baby sitting Superman, making sure Max doesn't control him again. She killed Max Lord because she had too...not because she couldn't beat Superman. Take out the source and we don't have to worry about Jon baby sitting Superman mind every day making sure Max isn't trying to take control again. Don't know why you all are even bringing that up. Batman almost got killed because of Max mind games, who else has to die because of Max and Superman or nearly die. Max taking control of Superman endangered the entire league and even had WW in jeopardy as well.
She killed Max because she had too, had nothing to do with doubt because if that was the case, why did she hold back against Supes if she felt like she couldn't damage him? Doesn't make sense and at one point she had him on the ropes...hell, at the end she sliced his throat clean open. If that isn't proof, I don't know what to tell you and it seems like the only way she would have stopped Superman in that type of mindset was killing him. Containing was out of the question.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Do you not see the contradiction there? Or do you really think she'd put Max in a normal prison and just act like nothing happened? That nobody would go in to Superman's mind and figure out what's going on? Even if Max believed he could go in to Superman's mind and assert control at any time (which is frankly ludicrous given what Superman has mentally resisted), how do we even know it's true? Max believing it to be true doesn't make it so.
It's what we're shown throughout all of Rucka's Sacrifice arc, though.
Perhaps outside of Sacrifice Superman has mentally resisted great telepaths, but he was not able to resist Max.
Originally posted by -Pr-
You're saying that if Max controls Superman, he'll endanger others.
Yes.
Originally posted by -Pr-
No argument there.
👆
Originally posted by -Pr-
Yet you're also saying that Diana could beat Superman?
Yes.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Then why not do so ... ?
She did.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14853782
Originally posted by -Pr-
put him in containment ... ?
Where exactly? Do the JLA have a big red sun room they keep handy?
Originally posted by -Pr-
... and let J'onn help purge his mind?
Jonn told us in the previous chapter, Adventures of Superman #642, that he could not do so.
He would risk driving Superman mad if he did.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Or put down Superman long enough to put Max somewhere where his telepathy can't hurt anyone?
What magical place would this be?
How do you stop someone from thinking or transmitting thought waves?
Originally posted by -Pr-
Even if Max believed he could go in to Superman's mind and assert control at any time, how do we even know it's true? Max believing it to be true doesn't make it so.
Max had done so twice already.
And to the extent that even Diana's Lasso of Truth could not make him see reality properly.
Max's ability to control Superman wasn't some untested theoretical statement at that point.
Re-read Sacrifice Chapter Four (Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2) and Sacrifice Chapter Three, Adventures of Superman #642.