Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Easy.Put Max in the Phantom Zone. Actually fits your description of a magical place, considering the Angel Host call it Limbo...
When during that scene could she have done that? Lol...you all are doing too much. Why didn't Superman fly DOS Superman in space instead of going fist cuff with him which caused his death.
Originally posted by carver9Lol...you all are doing too much.
When during that scene could she have done that?
Why didn't Superman fly Death of Superman Doomsday into space instead of going fist cuff with him which caused Superman's death?
"Too much", indeed ...
At this point, I'm almost surprised no one has yet suggested magic kryptonite.
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Source: Superman/Batman #46
Writers: Michael Green & Mike Johnson
Penciller: Shane Davis
Date: April 2008
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is WW a low herald? I thought she was mid-high, given the close fights she's given Supes and Shazam on a few occasions?
Originally posted by Star428
LOL. She's never given Superman a close fight. The Sacrifice fight is the only one that lasted more than a few panels and even though she may've gotten a technical victory the fight itself proves how far above her he actually is. Also, the only reason she got that so-called "victory" is because Clark was hallucinating. If you look closely at the entire fight and not just the ending you'll realize that she's not in his league. Nor Captain Marvel's either, imo. Feel free to post some scans though of her "having close fights" with him and I might change my mind.
Originally posted by krisblaze
Always considered WW a mid-herald...That's also where she's ranked.
With Orion on mid, where he belongs.
Bit of a faux-pas on my part. I had meant low-mid herald. My bad.
Originally posted by carver9
I guess you all didn't read what Max was saying to Diana. If she didn't kill him he would have kept repeating the process of controlling Superman. No one has the time to keep sitting there baby sitting Superman, making sure Max doesn't control him again. She killed Max Lord because she had too...not because she couldn't beat Superman. Take out the source and we don't have to worry about Jon baby sitting Superman mind every day making sure Max isn't trying to take control again. Don't know why you all are even bringing that up. Batman almost got killed because of Max mind games, who else has to die because of Max and Superman or nearly die. Max taking control of Superman endangered the entire league and even had WW in jeopardy as well.She killed Max because she had too, had nothing to do with doubt because if that was the case, why did she hold back against Supes if she felt like she couldn't damage him? Doesn't make sense and at one point she had him on the ropes...hell, at the end she sliced his throat clean open. If that isn't proof, I don't know what to tell you and it seems like the only way she would have stopped Superman in that type of mindset was killing him. Containing was out of the question.
Lots of contradicting there, carter.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's what we're shown throughout all of Rucka's Sacrifice arc, though.
Perhaps outside of Sacrifice Superman has mentally resisted great telepaths, but he was not able to resist Max.
Shown by one writer in one arc. These things don't happen in a vacuum, and the JLA have dealt with bigger threats than Superman before.
She did.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14853782
Disagree. Especially considering how fast he healed.
Where exactly? Do the JLA have a big red sun room they keep handy?
No, but the Green Lanterns do. And it's not like the JLA can't contain Superman, like I said.
Jonn told us in the previous chapter, Adventures of Superman #642, that he could not do so.
He would risk driving Superman mad if he did.
J'onn said he was afraid of making Superman's mind worse in the process. Sure, he didn't seem confident in his ability to undo what Max had done, but I don't consider that to mean it couldn't be done, especially given J'onn's other feats.
What magical place would this be?
How do you stop someone from thinking or transmitting thought waves?
Come on. They have tons of ways to stop telepathic signals being broadcast. Hell, a GL ring can do it almost casually.
Max had done so twice already.
And to the extent that even Diana's Lasso of Truth could not make him see reality properly.Max's ability to control Superman wasn't some untested theoretical statement at that point.
I never said that he wasn't. Max controlling Superman is the basis of the whole mod ruling on Sacrifice in the first place.
Re-read Sacrifice Chapter Four (Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2) and Sacrifice Chapter Three, Adventures of Superman #642.
Why? I've read them recently enough already. Just because I don't take from them the same things you do, doesn't mean I somehow didn't read them.
My original point stands:
People argue that Wonder Woman can win, even though the evidence of her doing so is slim at best. And then at the same time try to argue that the only choice she had was to kill Max.
That just doesn't gel for me, sorry.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not bad, but even Pr didn't think of this one.Go back in time and suggest this to Greg Rucka.
Thanks for reading my mind, I guess.
Originally posted by carver9
When during that scene could she have done that? Lol...you all are doing too much. Why didn't Superman fly DOS Superman in space instead of going fist cuff with him which caused his death.
Not remotely the same.
You want to claim she can beat him, but not contain him. She can kill him, but she can't knock him unconscious? Really?
Originally posted by -Pr-
Bit of a faux-pas on my part. I had meant low-mid herald. My bad.Lots of contradicting there, carter.
Shown by one writer in one arc. These things don't happen in a vacuum, and the JLA have dealt with bigger threats than Superman before.
Disagree. Especially considering how fast he healed.
No, but the Green Lanterns do. And it's not like the JLA can't contain Superman, like I said.
J'onn said he was afraid of making Superman's mind worse in the process. Sure, he didn't seem confident in his ability to undo what Max had done, but I don't consider that to mean it couldn't be done, especially given J'onn's other feats.
Come on. They have tons of ways to stop telepathic signals being broadcast. Hell, a GL ring can do it almost casually.
I never said that he wasn't. Max controlling Superman is the basis of the whole mod ruling on Sacrifice in the first place.
Why? I've read them recently enough already. Just because I don't take from them the same things you do, doesn't mean I somehow didn't read them.
My original point stands:
People argue that Wonder Woman can win, even though the evidence of her doing so is slim at best. And then at the same time try to argue that the only choice she had was to kill Max.
That just doesn't gel for me, sorry.
Thanks for reading my mind, I guess.
Not remotely the same.
You want to claim she can beat him, but not contain him. She can kill him, but she can't knock him unconscious? Really?
Neither Superman nor WW was falling in that fight and you're still missing the point. Max being alive was threatening to Supes and the League. He admits he was going to continue to go after Superman at any chance he got. She didn't kill him because she couldn't beat Superman, she killed him because of what Max told her he would have Superman do once he controlled him again.
Originally posted by -Pr-
the Green Lanterns [have a big red sun room]
If you're referring to what they arranged for Superboy Prime, keep in mind that Infinite Crisis happened AFTER this series.
Originally posted by -Pr-
And it's not like the JLA can't contain Superman, like I said.
1) Where did you say this at?
2) Part of the fear was that Max could control the JLA as well.
Diana was the only one who had reason to believe herself immune from his power:
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elthe sun moved out of the way to save Diana's life
I re-examined those scenes in Sacrifice.
I noticed for the first time; Diana approaches from a right angle just before she gets clocked, not from directly in front or in back of Superman.
Look carefully at the action lines Morales and company drew:
Originally posted by krisblaze
What is default strength?Not particularly angry?
There's no way in hell a mildly upset Hulk can hang with one of Galactus' heralds 😐
Default would be at the initial point of transformation.
Carver has stated that Hulk is High-mid tier at default and as the leader and sole member of The Gamma Nation, his word is infallible.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Lots of contradicting there, carter.People argue that Wonder Woman can win, even though the evidence of her doing so is slim at best. And then at the same time try to argue that the only choice she had was to kill Max.
You want to claim she can beat him, but not contain him. She can kill him, but she can't knock him unconscious? Really?
Yes, really.
To kill Superman, all Wonder Woman need do is slash something vital with her standard equipment. You saw her give the non-lethal version of the maneuver to end the Sacrifice fight.
The difficulty you're having is failing to understand that killing someone with an edged weapon is often easier than simply holding said target in a bearhug or something of the like. A slash takes a second, a fraction of a second, and, once made, continues to do its work. A bearhug requires continual effort and far greater.
Perhaps DC writers are very bad at explaining concepts like this to fans?
Certainly Marvel writers are familiar with the idea. One of the more famous dialogues I can remember took place under surprisingly similar circumstances:
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I re-examined those scenes in Sacrifice.I noticed for the first time; Diana approaches from a right angle just before she gets clocked, not from directly in front or in back of Superman.
Look carefully at the action lines Morales and company drew:
??? What are We talking about?
She is facing towards Superman and the sun is in the back, it does not take a nasa scientist to figure that if Superman hits her most likely she will on that direction, not on the opposite direction.
But maybe Superman just decided to make her suffer instead of killing her.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
We're talking about this part in green buddy ... circled for you to examine the action lines the artist(s) drew.They suggest Wonder Woman coming in at a right angle to Superman, not directly in front or behind him.
That seems more likely that Superman decided to send her back to Earth with the punch, which is quite a possibility since We know that the intention of Superman was not to kill her but to make her suffer, IMO
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
That seems more likely that Superman decided to send her back to Earth with the punch, which is quite a possibility since We know that the intention of Superman was not to kill her but to make her suffer, IMO
Your explanation doesn't square with Rucka's interview or Wonder Woman #219 which featured the actual fight, though.
The explanation that bests unifies all that we see and know is that Max Lord, having enough control over Superman to make him dodge Wonder Woman's lasso at exactly the right time, has Superman angle Wonder Woman back to Earth so he can display the risk metahumans represent to common people.
