Originally posted by Rao Kal El
OK, So Max manipulated Superman into throwing WW back to earth it makes sense 👆, so what about it?
So there was no pulling of punches on Superman's part.
Wonder Woman endured the hardest purely physical striking force Superman can reasonably be expected to bring to bear against her under almost any circumstances, far harder than what he'd ever be able to generate under normal conditions.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yes, really.To kill Superman, all Wonder Woman need do is slash something vital with her standard equipment. You saw her give the non-lethal version of the maneuver to end the Sacrifice fight.
On the other hand slashing something 'vital' isn't going to work against Superman, because he's not a human being. Cutting his throat or injurign his vital organs isn't enough to kill him. If he's anything like Superboy then his consciousness is housed in his entire body, not just his brain, and it's not just his heart that pumps life into him.
Having a blade capable of penetrating Superman's skin doesn't automatically mean that you can just stab him and he'll die like a regular human being. He's a kryptonian.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
So there was no pulling of punches on Superman's part.Wonder Woman endured the hardest purely physical striking force Superman can reasonably be expected to bring to bear against her under almost any circumstances, far harder than what he'd ever be able to generate under normal conditions.
A torturer can kill any of his prisoners when ever he wants, yet he does not do that, why? Because he wants to make them suffer, so he inflicts pain, yet he does not kills them until he wants to.
Why would someone who wants to make you suffer will hit you with the intention of killing you? If he kills you he can't make you suffer.
So if someone wants to make you suffer will you think he will hit you with the intention of killing you or with the intention of causing you pain?
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
A torturer can kill any of his prisoners when ever he wants, yet he does not do that, why? Because he wants to make them suffer, so he inflicts pain, yet he does not kills them until he wants to.Why would someone who wants to make you suffer will hit you with the intention of killing you? If he kills you he can't make you suffer.
So if someone wants to make you suffer will you think he will hit you with the intention of killing you or with the intention of causing you pain?
I understand what you're trying to say, Salsa, but the type of personality you're describing is Max Lord, not Clark Kent.
You're describing Max as he appears in Rucka's Sacrifice to a tee ...
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Ok and who is controlling/manipulating Superman?
I follow your line of reasoning; you're trying to say that, because Max is cruel he's trying to stretch the fight out for his own enjoyment.
And he probably is.
The only problem with your line of reasoning is that Max doesn't have control over how psychotic Superman is after Max makes him snap. He can't dial Superman back down to the level of force Superman was using against "Ruin" in the previous episode.
And he hasn't. Proof is that Superman's punch sends Diana over 20 million miles away when he finally connects. That's not Superman holding back in the least.
Like Rucka says, he's going to kill Doomsday, period.
Max may have other plans, and be calm, and cool, and collected, but Clark isn't. That's the wildest, fullest-force punching the man can muster.
Bottom line, given Rucka's interview AND Wonder Woman #219 and the fact that the issue you keep referencing only contains the fragmented memories of Superman's mind after he goes temporarily insane, you would have to find me episodes of Superman similarly enraged and punching like he punches Diana to have a chance of convincing me you're right, let alone convince me that Rucka thinks you are.
Originally posted by -Pr-Because the writer said it wasn't intended to be near sun. Nothing was said about breaking the bones though.
[B]So you want to pass the sun proximity off as artist error, but at the same time, you want to argue that Superman somehow warped an indestructible object by squeezing through it and crushing Diana's wrist. Not that he simply grabbed the uncovered part of her wrist and broke that?
I never said Diana was as durable as Orion, did I? She's a low herald, he's a high herald. There is a strength and durability gap. The gap just doesn't need to be as large as you seem to think it is, is all i'm saying.It is as large as I think. He is simply beyond her in physical attributes.
hell, I can snap someone's wrist by twisting it the wrong way. Not Brock Lesnar, but an average person? Sure.He didn't twist it. He simply squeezed and broke her wrist. He did the same in WW 175.
Originally posted by krisblaze
I certainly agree with you on the concept of heroes holding back when they fight berserkers like the Hulk.On the other hand slashing something 'vital' isn't going to work against Superman, because he's not a human being. Cutting his throat or injurign his vital organs isn't enough to kill him. If he's anything like Superboy then his consciousness is housed in his entire body, not just his brain, and it's not just his heart that pumps life into him.
Having a blade capable of penetrating Superman's skin doesn't automatically mean that you can just stab him and he'll die like a regular human being. He's a kryptonian.
This is actually not too bad a point.
However, terrasects (tesseracts?) and portal traps aside, I've not seen anything to suggest Superman could survive beheading, and that is precisely the method Diana has favored when going against the most serious of opponents:
Originally posted by h1a8
in carver's defense I'm going to say that amazo ducked his head AFTER the hv was fired.
If amazo ducked his head before the fire then Superman wouldn't have fired at the top of his head on purpose but readjusting his aim and firing into his eyes.superman is faster in movement speed but her arm speed and reflexes are enough to block or parry some of his physical attacks. She can counter with some good blows or pressure point strikes. And the lasso is an option after she lands a decent hit.
She definitely has at least a small chance to win. The lasso gives her that.
I think she edge Superman if she thinks "hit and then lasso" and superman doesn't use freeze breath before she hits him.
But if Superman hits her with freeze breath or with a good punch first then she is done.
Originally posted by h1a8
Her skill and weaponry keeps her in the fight with chances to win. If Superman wins then it's at best 7/10. If Superman spams freeze breath from the get go then it's 10/10 (but I don't think he would do that).
His argument is all a bunch of assumption. And Abhi pointed-out him "ducking" about the same time that Batman and Hal tackle him. And considering the actual fight, that seems more likely. Amazo didn't do a damn thing to defend himself until he processed the situation("attack"😉 and determined a solution("counter-attack"😉. Take a look at the fight. All he does is let himself be hit until he finally determines "counter-attack." The "ducking" heat vision is the only thing remotely any type of response, and going by Carter-Logic, that means he's fast enough to respond to Superman's heat vision, but not fast enough to do anything to GL and Bats trying to cut his legs off.
She has a slight chance, but 3/10 is too generous under normal circumstances. You arguing she performs at her best only works if you don't give the same to Superman.
Originally posted by SquallX
Superman is not beating Diana 10/10, don't care how serious he is.A serious Diana is just as dangerous as a serious Kal.
😆
Originally posted by carver9
👆
So you get destroyed and then go to cheerleading?
Originally posted by SquallX
I did read what you wrote, and i still stand by what I said.Even if Kal spams freeze breath, that's not gonna give him a 10/10.
A serious Diana is far more dangerous than a serious kal, because Diana would be bringing her gears to this fight and she would go for the kill.
Considering what he did to Bizarro, I think he can beat her 10/10 with freeze breath alone. And so, only she gets prep-time? That's why she's more dangerous? 🙄
Originally posted by bluewaterriderAnd Diana was capable of beating Superman in Sacrifice.
She proved it to Max by doing so.
That's why she's not dead.
She proved she can beat him With a technical win. Under serious extenuating circumstances.
Originally posted by krisblaze
Always considered WW a mid-herald...That's also where she's ranked.
With Orion on mid, where he belongs.
Wonder Woman wishes she were on Orion's level. And he's an Elite Top-Tier. Dunno why he's ranked mid-level.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's what we're shown throughout all of Rucka's Sacrifice arc, though.
Perhaps outside of Sacrifice Superman has mentally resisted great telepaths, but he was not able to resist Max.What magical place would this be?
How do you stop someone from thinking or transmitting thought waves?Max had [b]done
so twice already.
And to the extent that even Diana's Lasso of Truth could not make him see reality properly.Max's ability to control Superman wasn't some untested theoretical statement at that point.
Re-read Sacrifice Chapter Four (Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2) and Sacrifice Chapter Three, Adventures of Superman #642. [/B]
It took Max years of subtle work to get a "telepathic foothold" on Superman's mind. And Abhi has before posted Max still failed to have full control.
As for stopping Max's control, GLs and Phantom Zone have been mentioned. There's other ways. Maxima was imprisoned with a helmet keeping her from using her telepathy(perhaps psionic powers period). Manchester Black was drugged to keep his powers in check. There's ways to imprison telepaths. Maybe Rucka wasn't aware, but just because you are unaware doesn't mean that Diana killing Max isn't evidence she couldn't incapacitate or restrain him long enough to imprison Max and disable his telepathy.
Originally posted by carver9
When during that scene could she have done that? Lol...you all are doing too much. Why didn't Superman fly DOS Superman in space instead of going fist cuff with him which caused his death.
I don't remember if it was intended to be in space, but Superman did try to fly Doomsday off for a BFR but it failed. Just like you fail. And I know how you'll argue this out of context against Superman, because you're very bad at this.
Originally posted by carver9
👆Hulk is trans tier.
In your dreams, yes. And you wake-up feeling warm and sticky from those dreams. 😱 Ew.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I hate you so much.
👆
Originally posted by carver9
Neither Superman nor WW was falling in that fight and you're still missing the point. Max being alive was threatening to Supes and the League. He admits he was going to continue to go after Superman at any chance he got. She didn't kill him because she couldn't beat Superman, she killed him because of what Max told her he would have Superman do once he controlled him again.
Psi-Blocking drugs and equipment.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yes, really.To kill Superman, all Wonder Woman need do is slash something vital with her standard equipment. You saw her give the non-lethal version of the maneuver to end the Sacrifice fight.
The difficulty you're having is failing to understand that killing someone with an edged weapon is often easier than simply holding said target in a bearhug or something of the like. A slash takes a second, a fraction of a second, and, once made, continues to do its work. A bearhug requires continual effort and far greater.
Perhaps DC writers are very bad at explaining concepts like this to fans?
Certainly Marvel writers are familiar with the idea. One of the more famous dialogues I can remember took place under surprisingly similar circumstances:
Superman's probably tougher than you're giving him credit, and, most importantly, this argument only works when you assume Superman will fight with the same mentally compromised state he did in SACRIFICE. He can avoid her attacks if he's mentally competent.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
So there was no pulling of punches on Superman's part.Wonder Woman endured the hardest purely physical striking force Superman can reasonably be expected to bring to bear against her under almost any circumstances, far harder than what he'd ever be able to generate under normal conditions.
And good for her that she didn't die from it. Fact is, she was KTFOed from that punch, only woke-up because of the reentry heat, and she was incapacitated for a while. Look at the fight again. She didn't get-up for a fair amount of time, and he just stood there for a bit when he caught-up to her. If he pressed the attack? Yeah, she would've been finished. Oh and he wasn't amped like you desperately wish.
Originally posted by Delta1938So I am on ignore yet you respond away. WW barely wins. Don't make this a personal thing, sport.
We're taking this off-topic, but all I have to say is I'm not so insecure about my status that I have to defend playing kickball and try to make it look like it makes me manly. Right champ?
Originally posted by quanchi112
So I am on ignore yet you respond away. WW barely wins. Don't make this a personal thing, sport.
I admit I do occasionally check your messages to see if you've posted anything worthwhile or at least funny. I sometimes get funny. If you weren't such a troll I wouldn't have you on ignore. If it were possible for you to actually debate, I would engage you and show you why you're wrong about Wonder Woman because she definitely loses. And you being sensitive kinda proves my point, son.
Originally posted by Delta1938Irony.
I admit I do occasionally check your messages to see if you've posted anything worthwhile or at least funny. I sometimes get funny. If you weren't such a troll I wouldn't have you on ignore. If it were possible for you to actually debate, I would engage you and show you why you're wrong about Wonder Woman because she definitely loses. And you being sensitive kinda proves my point, son.
I based my conclusions on evidence whereas you base yours off ignoring evidence.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Irony.I based my conclusions on evidence whereas you base yours off ignoring evidence.
No, I base mine off what the comics actually show. But you will just nitpick and troll instead of debate. I've seen you arguing for Superman against Fangirl, so I know the type of hypocritical bullshit game you play because.....I dunno. Your life sucks? A billion other reasons?
Only you know why you spend so much time and energy to get bashed by everybody only to claim you won no matter how badly you lost. I guess your parents didn't give you the attention annoying people on the Internet does? Not getting personal. A real mystery of why you're the way you are.