Superman vs. Wonder Woman

Originally posted by Delta1938

I hate the quote feature of KMC. When you try to quote a response like yours which was done entirely AS a post of KMC quotes, you get a complete blank resulting.

At any rate, though, to address your point, I have not ignored what you wrote there.
As you well know, however, I disagree with it.
Were you consistently applying the standard you've been using with Sacrifice, you wouldn't agree with the conclusion that what Superman tells Kara is correct either.

For you've spent pages telling me that, although Wonder Woman believes Superman is holding nothing back, and Greg Rucka himself says that Superman in Wonder Woman #219 is holding nothing back, somehow Superman thinking or relating his memories in some followup by Rucka the following month "proves" he was holding something back.

In other words that if Character X disagrees with an analysis, then the analysis must be wrong.

However, you only do this when Character X is Superman. When it is someone other than him, then you agree with the analysis.

And that's just using your own standard.

Using my more consistent one of actually examining what we're given, you come to a different conclusion. For starters, just going of off Supergirl #5, which you're referring to, Dark Kara does not believe him. She challenges him to prove his theory, to show her that he is not only stronger but fast enough to catch her at will, despite the fact of her outstripping even his vision earlier.

More interesting than that is the fact that Batman does not seem to believe Superman either. Significant because of the fact that HE himself is the one that shared that theory with Superman.

Note that Batman was perfectly willing to battle without significant aid, other than the help of "Good" Kara until this point. At the point where Superman's assertion is actually challenged, he pulls forth a kryptonite ring.
"Good" Kara thinks "Finally! He DID bring the ring, after all ..."

But Batman did not display it before now.
Why not?
His entire plan was to have Wonder Woman and Superman "handle" the affair,
as "Good" Kara herself realized upon their appearance.

Then why not let them "handle" it from that point?

What is there to fear?

Now, regardless of your reply, which history tells me will likely come right before I complete this post, there's also the reality of what is related to us after this story.

Chronologically following this affair is Superman #223, where Blackrock battles the Super cousins. How do we know it chronologically follows?

Superman and Supergirl relate to us a primary event of that arc, Supergirl's battle against the Justice League. "You really think you're in control of yourself after what happened with the JLA?" he asks.
Kara responds "That was Luthor, not me".

Which is exactly the case of that arc. Supergirl is split into light and dark halves.
The "Good" Kara and the "Dark" Kara mentioned previously if you will.

Supergirl and Superman battle Blackrock once that transmission is interrupted and ... surprise, surprise. Blackrock finds that Kara is stronger than her cousin.
Indeed Kara talks to her of coming from Krypton precisely to protect her cousin, ensure that he stays safe, and demonstrates she's serious about that by besting Blackrock with relative ease.

She then gives us dialogue that seems to express Mark Verheiden's case for being pro-life. Which I agree with. Though it sounds forced in the special situation we see in that comic. Still I agree with it.

Anyway we're shown Kara able to handle Blackrock's power a whole lot better than Superman is, and an admission from a villain possessed by an entity who has faced Superman before, and should therefore know what it is talking about (the Blackrock itself, which is merely empowering Lucia or whoever the stone wearer is).

I'll see if I can't find the scans I'm talking about while I await your inevitable reply. Though something tells me our history has repeated and you already managed to slip in a message between this and my last one ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I hate the quote feature of KMC. When you try to quote a response like yours which was done entirely AS a post of KMC quotes, you get a complete blank resulting.

At any rate, though, to address your point, I have not ignored what you wrote there.
As you well know, however, I disagree with it.
Were you consistently applying the standard you've been using with Sacrifice, you wouldn't agree with the conclusion that what Superman tells Kara is correct either.

For you've spent pages telling me that, although Wonder Woman believes Superman is holding nothing back, and Greg Rucka himself says that Superman in Wonder Woman #219 is holding nothing back, somehow Superman thinking or relating his memories in some followup by Rucka the following month "proves" he was holding something back.

In other words that if Character X disagrees with an analysis, then the analysis must be wrong.

However, you only do this when Character X is Superman. When it is someone other than him, then you agree with the analysis.

And that's just using your own standard.

Using my more consistent one of actually examining what we're given, you come to a different conclusion. For starters, just going of off Supergirl #5, which you're referring to, Dark Kara does not believe him. She challenges him to prove his theory, to show her that he is not only stronger but fast enough to catch her at will, despite the fact of her outstripping even his vision earlier.

More interesting than that is the fact that Batman does not seem to believe Superman either. Significant because of the fact that HE himself is the one that shared that theory with Superman.

Note that Batman was perfectly willing to battle without significant aid, other than the help of "Good" Kara until this point. At the point where Superman's assertion is actually challenged, he pulls forth a kryptonite ring.
"Good" Kara thinks "Finally! He DID bring the ring, after all ..."

But Batman did not display it before now.
Why not?
His entire plan was to have Wonder Woman and Superman "handle" the affair,
as "Good" Kara herself realized upon their appearance.

Then why not let them "handle" it from that point?

What is there to fear?

I point-out what happene on-panel. You argue me ignoring on-panel evidence because I don't like it, while doing the exact same thing you accuse me of.

You're not consistent at ALL. Might I remind you of you dismissing Superman's massively superior showings over Wonder Woman in OWAW because they happened Pre-INFINITE CRISIS, and you clmed they were retconned, while simultaneously the ONLY argument you've made was to cite Wonder Woman helping to move the Earth in JLA #75(or thereabouts), claim she got stronger while Superman got weaker, provide nothing but your ignorant and biased opinion for both, when by your very argument that the Earth moving is retconned by your own argument? What about you saying I provided evidence against myself, me pointing-out the context, and you saying you weren't wrong because of other examples that don't actually help your case? What about the fact that you don't address all points, arguments and evidence brought against you and only focus on what you think you can counter? What about the times you get on me about dodging things(out of context), while, well.....you know, you dodge just about everything? How was it consistent of you to argue Supergirl and Dark Kara swapping costumes, argue the hair length was extremely consistent, and then when I bring-up how everybody BUT Wonder Woman drew blood from one of the Karas? I pointed-out same writer, same artist, everybody but Diana, evidence of Superman(as well as Supergirl) being stronger than Wonder Woman(I let Martian Manhunter slide as him being invisible we don't know if it was pure strength, and of course Luthor used Kryptonite as well as his suit's strength). What about when I pointed-out how Superman had beaten Luthor in his powered armor with little more than brute strength despite much greater Kryptonite effect, compared to Supergirl getting owned and Dark Kara requiring skill and versatility and still having trouble? Oh, you argued that Kara had much greater Kryptonite poisoning due to a retcon that I believe was under a different writer. If so, then you can't cite that to counter Loeb having Superman show to be stronger than Supergirl compared to fights with Luthor even though Superman was heavily effected by Kryptonite. So, yeah, Loeb's comparative performances against Luthor has Superman>Supergirl.

Dark Kara was an angst ridden teenage girl times a billion. Of course she's going to challenge an authority figure, especially one she's supposed to be older than.

I dunno why Batman pulled-out the Kryptonite. You're kinda arguing Batman thinks Dark Kara>Superman/Supergirl/Wonder Woman, but then again you borderline argued Wonder Woman>Superman+Wonder Woman. Superman stated Batman sided with Supergirl just looked more powerful due to lack of restraint Superman grew-up having to do. If you argue actions speak louder than words, look above to Superman's and Supergirl's comparative performances against Luthor. Unless you think Dark Kara>Superman/Supergirl/Wonder Woman.

But hey, I see you're going to focus on reading into things that likely were not writer's intent, and ignore what is most likely writer's intent, and the fact that Superman, heavily effected by Kryptonite(and more actually) still comes-off looking better than Supergirl, and stronger than Dark Kara, against Luthor.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now, regardless of your reply, which history tells me will likely come right before I complete this post, there's also the reality of what is related to us after this story.

Chronologically following this affair is Superman #223, where Blackrock battles the Super cousins. How do we know it chronologically follows?

Superman and Supergirl relate to us a primary event of that arc, Supergirl's battle against the Justice League. "You really think you're in control of yourself after what happened with the JLA?" he asks.
Kara responds "That was Luthor, not me".

Which is exactly the case of that arc. Supergirl is split into light and dark halves.
The "Good" Kara and the "Dark" Kara mentioned previously if you will.

Supergirl and Superman battle Blackrock once that transmission is interrupted and ... surprise, surprise. Blackrock finds that Kara is stronger than her cousin.
Indeed Kara talks to her of coming from Krypton precisely to protect her cousin, ensure that he stays safe, and demonstrates she's serious about that by besting Blackrock with relative ease.

She then gives us dialogue that seems to express Mark Verheiden's case for being pro-life. Which I agree with. Though it sounds forced in the special situation we see in that comic. Still I agree with it.

Anyway we're shown Kara able to handle Blackrock's power a whole lot better than Superman is, and an admission from a villain possessed by an entity who has faced Superman before, and should therefore know what it is talking about (the Blackrock itself, which is merely empowering Lucia or whoever the stone wearer is).

I'll see if I can't find the scans I'm talking about while I await your inevitable reply. Though something tells me our history has repeated and you already managed to slip in a message between this and my last one ...

I know what you're referring to. I'm going to guess you only read that issue? Yes, in the instance you're referring to Supergirl was stated to be more powerful and comes off looking better. But there's problems. First Ill post Superman's FIRST fight.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Blackrock/Lucia/Drain

Yeah, he doesn't do very well. Supergirl?

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Blackrock/Lucia/Supergirl-Ned

Yes, better. But note that Lucia never tries the energy drain on Kara. Unless you think those shiny black streaks she puts on Superman are her doing something else. Now, you might not know, but Superman's powers are dynamic. If you don't believe me I can post numerous examples. But, anyways, about the rematch with Lucia, he does arguably worse at first. It seems she's even attacking him with more powerful energy blasts. And, she's again doing the energy drain thing. Yet, when Superman focuses and has motivation, he shrugs it off, grabs her and takes her into a lead lined room cutting her from her power source.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Blackrock/Lucia

Quick note, I hope you're actually honest and won't be using those scans out of context. I have a feeling though my hope is pointless.

I do not know of Kara, or any Kryptonians other than Superman, having their powers be dynamic based on mental state. Probably because he grew-up with his powers developing slowly, having to restrain himself to keep from harming others. He's the only Kryptonian to have to do this, to my knowledge. Remember that example with Blackstar and Superman and Supergirl were being restrained and drained and Superman was able to break free? Didn't you try to argue that Superman didn't look better because of Kara's mind entering his body temporarily due to that Kara in the future with the LSH stuff? In my opinion, Superman was unable to break it before Kara took temporary control due to his concern for Kara keeping him unfocused, and of course temporal mind swapping Kara wouldn't have the same issues. I'm sure you'll disagree with my opinion, but then explain why Kara's body was unable to break from it if she really is more powerful than Superman?

Now, off to dinner.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Delta, we could probably make some kind of headway if you actually read what I wrote for a change.
Unless I am gravely mistaken, everything you just gave above completely ignores what I actually typed in my previous post.

Review, please:

Posting material from precisely the period I disqualified does nothing to counter my point. I really wish you would stop pretending it does.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Delta's wasn't a good post in either case.
He did nothing to address what I actually wrote.

I appreciate the scans, though.

One more thing before I eat, that I realized I missed earlier. My reply was actually in response to your claim that Superman wouldn't be the strongest Kryptonian man, but I threw in Supergirl as well. So, that makes a double you did what you accused me of, that I'm not reading your posts properly.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I point-out what happened on-panel.
You argue me ignoring on-panel evidence because I don't like it,
while doing the exact same thing you accuse me of.

At best, were you able to get this point, it would be a case of tu quoque.
(This is a real and non-vulgar term. Look it up.)
I'm actually considering far more evidence than you realize.

Originally posted by Delta1938

You're not consistent at ALL. Might I remind you of you dismissing Superman's massively superior showings over Wonder Woman in OWAW because they happened Pre-INFINITE CRISIS, and you claimed they were retconned, while simultaneously the ONLY argument you've made was to cite Wonder Woman helping to move the Earth in JLA #75(or thereabouts), claim she got stronger while Superman got weaker, provide nothing but your ignorant and biased opinion for both, when by your very argument that the Earth moving is retconned by your own argument?

Serious question. Why do you bother with name-calling opponents who DON'T do the same to you and run from or ignore the people that do?

Quan gives you as good as he gets and you avoid him like the plague.
Have I ever taken to insulting you like that? Calling you ignorant, etcetera?
It's even more glaring for what you revealed to me in private message.
You really think this is how you should conduct yourself, or even how you can win an argument ignoring said revelation?

As for retcons, though, they DO happen and HAVE happened, in the case of Supergirl, Superman, AND Wonder Woman.

It's pointless for you to deny that.

Not necessarily at the same time, though.

Supergirl, for example, is a relatively stable character in terms of history and characteristics from 2004, the date of her re-introduction by Jeph Loeb, until about 2008, when the World of New Krypton storyline takes place and Sterling Gates takes over as her writer.

During that four year period, nearly EVERYTHING, and I mean nearly EVERYTHING, gels with the argument that she is, in fact, stronger than her cousin.

Her origin planet is Birthright's Krypton, a heavy gravity world which would just about crush an ordinary human, a phenomenon explored by the relatively famous writer Mark Waid in the Legion of Super-Heroes series.

She is exposed to MASSIVE amounts of Kryptonite radiation, something apparently true even before the retcon, and she is likewise exposed to massive amounts of solar radiation.
Her power is considerable even before she sees Earth's yellow sun with her own consciously aware teenaged eyes, and she responds better to sunlight than her cousin.

Greg Rucka has her as the physical superior of Ultraman, who has always been shown as a match for Superman on those terms if not others, and Joe Kelly reinforces the point.
Without significant fight training as a metahuman, she nevertheless gets the best of every Superman analog she encounters that I'M aware of, stopping only with Clark himself, who has had perhaps 20 years of experience in battle, and should be EXPECTED to win against anyone who is not VASTLY his superior.

She continues on this way, consistently doing better against a number of opponents who otherwise trash Superman until after she has reached 17 in "formal" Earth years and ... World of Krypton.

Where she is quietly replaced with a different version of herself.

With a different history, different reality, and different age.

No longer from a heavy gravity world, but from some kind of asteroid.
No longer a 17 year old but all of 15.
No longer the daughter of Zor-el a scientist, but ...

Well, I'm not really sure what they thought they were having Zor-el do in Gates' series.

Anyway, the point is that 2004 to 2008 Kara is one character and entirely different than the one we see from 2008 on, as is Wonder Woman. As, presumably, is Clark.

For Wonder Woman you can see this progression, which becomes especially apparent if you journey to the years before 2003 and start noting the capability or non-capabilities of the character.

You yourself pointed much of this out to me.

These aren't insignificant differences either.

For example, the 2001 version of Wonder Woman, the Our Worlds at War (OWAW) era Wonder Woman cannot breathe in space unaided. In order to battle Primaid she has to hold her breath. Is that ANYTHING like the most current version of pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman that we know of, who shortly afterward in JLA #58 helped moved the moon in space at great speed to thwart a Martian plan to establish Earth as an airless (and thus flameless) citadel from which they could conquer the Universe?
Could OWAW Wonder Woman have survived the summit to freezing upper atmosphere she exposed Genocide to and plummet back to Earth?
Could OWAW Wonder Woman even have survived the 20 million mile plus trip Superman subjects her to open out Sacrifice?
Or would she have suffocated long before they reached his destination?

Why does it make sense to you to talk about characters who cannot do even the things we're taking for granted for the OP's general argument?

OWAW Wonder Woman could not survive Sacrifice Superman.
But Sacrifice Wonder Woman can. And did.
But if you want to go that way, OWAW Wonder Woman could not survive Sacrifice Wonder Woman, either, were you somehow able to set the 2 different versions one against the other.

From the progression we see after that point, it's possible to argue 2008 to 2010 Wonder Woman would take Sacrifice Diana down. Wonder Woman by then had progressed to the point she could and did punch out a thermonuclear warhead, admiring the explosion for being "almost lovely". Can anyone in their right mind see OWAW Diana doing that and even surviving, let alone blithely returning to Earth to teach the people who fired the rocket a lesson?

When you go back before 2003, you're not talking any longer about things that are truly relevant, Delta.

It has little if anything to do with preference.

Originally posted by Delta1938

What about you saying I provided evidence against myself, me pointing-out the context, and you saying you weren't wrong because of other examples that don't actually help your case?

Please give the specific example and/or a link to the page it appears on.
This is too vague for me to understand what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Delta1938

What about the fact that you don't address all points, arguments and evidence brought against you and only focus on what you think you can counter?

If I think something is relevant to the discussion, I address it.
If I don't, I don't.

Sometimes I overlook things, though, because you don't seem in the least serious about getting the question answered.

Way to get those questions you really want answered actually answered, though, is to simply present the single question you want answered.
Repeatedly. If there's ten questions, present them singly, not as a group of ten.

It's not like we're short on time here. The mere fact that we're on page 100-something of a thread started several years ago should tell you there's no particular preoccupation with time on KMC.

Originally posted by Delta1938

What about the times you get on me about dodging things(out of context), while, well.....you know, you dodge just about everything?

Stop sending me text walls with 10 or more items to address requiring a paragraph apiece to address and you should find that problem virtually disappear.

Originally posted by Delta1938

How was it consistent of you to argue Supergirl and Dark Kara swapping costumes, argue the hair length was extremely consistent ...?

The hair-length WAS consistent. You can see it right in the story. Dark Kara is long-haired. Light Kara is short-haired. If you don't think so, check the artwork. It's fairly straightforward. Perhaps Salsa will be kind enough to give us some scans for examination; presuming you yourself are not able to.

Originally posted by Delta1938

... and then when I bring-up how everybody BUT Wonder Woman drew blood from one of the Karas? I pointed-out same writer, same artist, everybody but Diana, evidence of Superman(as well as Supergirl) being stronger than Wonder Woman(I let Martian Manhunter slide as him being invisible we don't know if it was pure strength, and of course Luthor used Kryptonite as well as his suit's strength).

Pretty sure I answered this before.
Nearly EVERYONE in the "Power" series arc you're describing (Superman/Batman #19 + Supergirl Volume 5 #1-5) drew blood from Kara after Supergirl #3 began.
But none of those punches discouraged her, did they?
You see exactly ONE on-panel punch from Wonder Woman compared to the multitude of attacks Superman uses, though.
Whose Kara do we directly see challenging after that? (Answer: NOT Wonder Woman's Kara ...)

Originally posted by Delta1938

What about when I pointed-out how Superman had beaten Luthor in his powered armor with little more than brute strength despite much greater Kryptonite effect, compared to Supergirl getting owned and Dark Kara requiring skill and versatility and still having trouble? Oh, you argued that Kara had much greater Kryptonite poisoning due to a retcon that I believe was under a different writer. If so, then you can't cite that to counter Loeb having Superman show to be stronger than Supergirl compared to fights with Luthor even though Superman was heavily effected by Kryptonite. So, yeah, Loeb's comparative performances against Luthor has Superman>Supergirl.

Pretty sure when I argued this that I was using the kryptonite of Grace and Thunder handcuffs and Luthor's green kryptonite lance along with the black kryptonite ray that split Kara into 2 people, not the meteor exposure. If I did, yes a retcon probably DOES say that, but I would be among the first to say that was a retcon; debate-able if Loeb intended such a thing to be part of his original series.

Originally posted by Delta1938

What about when I pointed-out how Superman had beaten Luthor in his powered armor with little more than brute strength despite much greater Kryptonite effect, compared to Supergirl getting owned and Dark Kara requiring skill and versatility and still having trouble? Oh, you argued that Kara had much greater Kryptonite poisoning due to a retcon that I believe was under a different writer. If so, then you can't cite that to counter Loeb having Superman show to be stronger than Supergirl compared to fights with Luthor even though Superman was heavily effected by Kryptonite. So, yeah, Loeb's comparative performances against Luthor has Superman>Supergirl.

I must also say; I'm made to wonder how you can argue Superman has such great resistance to kryptonite on the one hand, and then argue that Superman near the sun should be so affected by the tiny amount of kryptonite in Batman's ring that it would cancel out all sun-proximity benefit.

Is that what you call "consistency"?

Far simpler and more rational to argue, as you are at last beginning to, that different authors have different takes on things, and the composite picture is rarely unified and consistent, so it's exceedingly rare that even a sound argument can be based off these disparate stories.

But the case of Kara's strength 2004 to 2008 is amazing in this regard.
It'd be nice sometime if you actually examined it.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Dark Kara was an angst ridden teenage girl times a billion. Of course she's going to challenge an authority figure, especially one she's supposed to be older than.
[QUOTE]

Especially if she actually IS stronger than Clark, as evidence after Supergirl #5 suggests.

It should also be noted that issues later, after Supergirl has been made whole and is no longer Dark Kara, she still seems to firmly believe she legitimately outraced Superman, and tells the villain Power Boy as much after their confrontation.

She also teases Superman several issues after that in Joe Kelly's farewell issue about the matter after she has made amends with everyone.

[QUOTE=14866542]Originally posted by Delta1938

I dunno why Batman pulled-out the Kryptonite.

Your honesty, at least on this particular point, is appreciated.

Is Blue still persisting on the same BS that wonder woman is stronger than Superman? Gotta give credit for sheer stubbornness.

😬

Don't know why you guys even bother.

I think ignoring evidence on panel canon writers explanation is called a Quanuver on KMC

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Don't know why you guys even bother.

You queers broke the sequence of tldr posts.

I was enjoying seeing the walls. Not so much attempting to read them

Originally posted by Delta1938

You're kinda arguing Batman thinks Dark Kara>Superman/Supergirl/Wonder Woman ...

No.

I'm not.

Note that, although WE can tell who's who (by looking at the hair length) the heroes don't have that resource.

In point of fact, Superman attacked both Karas, angering the "Good" one as well as "Dark" Kara. They weren't really sure what either would do.
"Good" Kara would probably not attack Batman deliberately of course, but she physically expressed her anger against Wonder Woman (mistake) and the situation was still tense enough that she was unpredictable as ally or accidental foe.

Originally posted by Delta1938

... but then again you borderline argued Wonder Woman>Superman+Wonder Woman.

No.

Assuming you're referring now to Amazo in Justice League of America, Volume 2 #24, you TOOK it that way, and Salsa was honest enough to admit he had actually seen comics where the writer DID offer a phenomenon of that sort, where Hero X defeats Villain A despite Villain A having some or even all of Hero X's strength (Hulk), but that was never my point.

Review that thread and read carefully what I wrote, not what you THOUGHT I wrote, and see for yourself.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Superman stated Batman sided with Supergirl just looked more powerful due to lack of restraint Superman grew-up having to do.

That was only one of several theories that Batman had about Kara, though. Refer to Superman/Batman #19 a.k.a. Supergirl #0.

And you were already honest enough to admit you have no explanation for why Batman pulled out the kryptonite ring after that scene.

To me, that's easy to understand.

Note how perfectly this meshes if Kara actually WAS stronger than Superman, and Batman knew testing that out would likely lead to a VERY dangerous and unpredictable situation.

Originally posted by Delta1938

If you argue actions speak louder than words, look above to Superman's and Supergirl's comparative performances against Luthor.

Supergirl was exposed to Black Kryptonite as well as Green.
Superman only had the one type to contend with.

Has Superman had a situation where he too was exposed to both kinds of radiation? If not, the cases aren't comparable.

On the other hand, even pretending they are, ignores that, while one half of Kara went down, the other half Kara, "Dark" Kara got up and beat the crap out of Luthor, going so far as to throw him from ... what? Low Earth Orbit? All the way to the Moon. And beat a hasty retreat after that, by the way.
(Supergirl #4, Volume 5.)

Originally posted by Delta1938

Unless you think Dark Kara>Superman/Supergirl/Wonder Woman.

I covered this point just a few paragraphs above.

And yes, in general, I DO believe actions speak louder than words.

Which is part of why I don't believe Superman's Supergirl #5 speech.
Especially not given everything else that happens in, around, and after that particular comic, both in that fictional world and without.

Originally posted by quanchi112

I will never do a battlezone out of character. It isn't how I debate. I won't ever ignore evidence so while I'll debate it I'll never take the time to dedicate to a battlezone with those horrible stips.

Battlezones are often out of character my fearfull chumpette.

Haven't you read the bz tournaments?

😆

Heh, "not believe" Superman's words. That's a cute line and pretty much confirming that Blue will not take notice of anything which contradicts his point.

But I take it, wonder woman saying that Superman is the strongest one of them all is invalid. From Action Comics 818 and Adventures of Superman 642. Somebody post them and see how Blue reacts.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Don't know why you guys even bother.

I agree. Waste of time arguing with people who keep denying that shit doesn't stink despite all the evidence shown that it does.

WW has no chance in Hell against Clark if he's fighting in his right mind. No one has posted anything new that proves otherwise. Just basically the same crap recycled over and over as if they think posting it 1,000,000,000 times just with different words is going to change anyone's minds.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Heh, "not believe" Superman's words. That's a cute line and pretty much confirming that Blue will not take notice of anything which contradicts his point.

But I take it, wonder woman saying that Superman is the strongest one of them all is invalid...

Or the fact that she basically even stated to Superman's face "I cannot beat you".

Originally posted by Delta1938

But hey, I see you're going to focus on reading into things that likely were not writer's intent, and ignore what is most likely writer's intent ...

Might be a good idea to post one of Loeb's interviews here.
They are, unfortunately, very hard to find now.
I'll likely post the text after this message.

For now, though, here's a link to one of the more famous ones I remember:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&old=1&id=4651

Originally posted by Delta1938

... and the fact that Superman, heavily [affected] by Kryptonite(and more actually) still comes-off looking better than Supergirl, and stronger than Dark Kara, against Luthor.

Again, Supergirl was exposed to TWO kinds of Kryptonite, not one, both Black and Green.

Interestingly, as an aside, when Superman was split into two parts (Red and Blue) few if any suggested that either of the Supermen was the equal in strength of what Superman himself was before the split. With Kara, people automatically assume either half had the strength of the whole.

Why? Don't know.

Interesting to observe, however ...

Originally posted by Delta1938

I know what you're referring to. I'm going to guess you only read that issue?

I was a Supergirl fan, not a Superman fan.
I got that Superman issue (Volume 2 #223) because Supergirl was in it.
So, no, except for what you show me, I've had no exposure to, or true reason to expose myself to, the rest of that arc.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Yes, in the instance you're referring to Supergirl was stated to be more powerful ...

Thank you for admitting that.

Originally posted by Delta1938

... and comes off looking better.

See above.

Originally posted by Delta1938

But there's problems. First Ill post Superman's FIRST fight.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Blackrock/Lucia/Drain

Yeah, he doesn't do very well. Supergirl?

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Blackrock/Lucia/Supergirl-Ned

Yes, better. But note that Lucia never tries the energy drain on Kara. Unless you think those shiny black streaks she puts on Superman are her doing something else.

You don't know this. In point of fact, when Blackrock first tries that draining assault on Superman, it is invisible, with no physical manifestation.
No ray of black, no sparkly lights, nothing.
In fact the only attack we see at first is Superman's heat vision, attacking Blackrock. Consistent with her absorbing and/or turning that very energy against Superman. Examine my scan at the end of this post.

It makes perfect sense to suggest she DID try the assault against Supergirl, and found that she could not, that Supergirl's energy or strength was too great for Blackrock to reverse or do that to. Note that such would perfectly explain WHY Blackrock would make the statement that Supergirl is stronger than Superman, when Kara had not really gotten physical with Blackrock before that point.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Now, you might not know, but Superman's powers are dynamic. If you don't believe me I can post numerous examples. But, anyways, about the rematch with Lucia, he does arguably worse at first. It seems she's even attacking him with more powerful energy blasts. And, she's again doing the energy drain thing. Yet, when Superman focuses and has motivation, he shrugs it off, grabs her and takes her into a lead lined room cutting her from her power source.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Blackrock/Lucia

Quick note, I hope you're actually honest and won't be using those scans out of context. I have a feeling though my hope is pointless.

Don't know what you think I'll be doing with them, but I thank you for giving the scans of these Blackrock fight. I was actually thinking when I saw this that this is reminiscent of Spider-Man fighting the Lizard atop a train back in the 60s.
It was the issue right before he battled The Shocker for the first time.
He was limited to one arm, the other in a sling, because he had sprained it from Lizard knocking him off a building back in New York.
He managed to anger and trick Lizard into following him into a REFRIGERATOR CAR, and then kept Lizard angry and off balance enough for the cold to do its work on Lizard's unique, semi-cold-blooded physiology.
Liz became so weak that he collapsed on his own, IIRC.

Brilliant strategy and resourceful use of environment to advantage. Typical of Spider-Man, who consistently fought more powerful people than himself.

Not something I really expect from Superman.

Nice to see he's capable of that kind of action in extreme emergencies, too.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I do not know of Kara, or any Kryptonians other than Superman, having their powers be dynamic based on mental state. Probably because he grew-up with his powers developing slowly, having to restrain himself to keep from harming others. He's the only Kryptonian to have to do this, to my knowledge.

Your knowledge likely does not include the contents of Superman/Batman Annual #5, then. Dark Supergirl and Richard Grayson-Batman versus Doomsday and Cyborg. If I have some extra time, I'll post the relevant scene/explanation for you.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Remember that example with Blackstar and Superman and Supergirl were being restrained and drained and Superman was able to break free?

Not particularly.

Anything I know of such an encounter would have come from you and Salsa.

I don't own that book myself.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Didn't you try to argue that Superman didn't look better because of Kara's mind entering his body temporarily due to that Kara in the future with the LSH stuff?

Possibly. Supergirl was split into 2 halves for series other than Loeb's "Power" arc, oddly enough. One half was in the future, the other remained in the past (or present, depending on how you look at it).

Originally posted by Delta1938

In my opinion, Superman was unable to break it before Kara took temporary control due to his concern for Kara keeping him unfocused, and of course temporal mind swapping Kara wouldn't have the same issues.

I'm sure you'll disagree with my opinion, but then explain why Kara's body was unable to break from it if she really is more powerful than Superman?

See above. Half of Kara was in the future, half was in the past, all throughout her Legion adventures. Whatever split her THAT time, which was separate from the Black Kryptonite splitting episode of Supergirl #4, seems to have been traumatic enough to cause her amnesia and think she was dreaming for a good portion of her stay. She didn't even know how she GOT to the future.

I've got to review and see how she ever discovered the answer, assuming she ever did, for I really don't recollect how that was resolved right now, only that "I'm dreaming you up!" was a big motif of that series lending just the right touch of suspense to an otherwise sunny arc. There was always the possibility that Kara might actually hurt someone, though innocently, thinking that none of what she was seeing was real or of consequence ...

Originally posted by Delta1938
Now, off to dinner.

Hope you enjoyed it.

Originally posted by Star428
Or the fact that she basically even stated to Superman's face "I cannot beat you".

You're referring to A League of One, a story written in the year 2000.

Even ignoring the fact that the League members die if Diana beats Superman at that point in the script, Wonder Woman saying that 5 years before Sacrifice means nothing to me.

League of One Wonder Woman would be unable to beat her 2005 self, her Sacrifice self, and likely her 2003 incarnation, let alone the powerful hero we see by the year 2008.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA:_A_League_of_One

Actually, Diana saying anything like that would mean little to me even now.
She has a habit of saying things that turn out not to be true, even in regards to her own power, which she doesn't seem to understand much better than the average person.

That's been true from 1994 all the way to and through 2010, incidentally, with Diana not understanding how strong OR how physically tough she is in either era, really:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13989127
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13986236

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Might be a good idea to post one of Loeb's interviews here.
They are, unfortunately, very hard to find now.
I'll likely post the text after this message.

For now, though, here's a URL to one of the more famous ones I remember:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&old=1&id=4651

Jeph Loeb On His Plans For The Summer Debuting "Supergirl" Series
(Part 1 of 3)

When Jeph Loeb reintroduced the one, true Supergirl to the DC Universe in the pages of "Superman/Batman," fans sat up and took notice. She made her first appearance in "Superman/Batman" #8, but truly wowed fans when she made her first appearance in costume with issue #13. In typical Loeb fashion, Supergirl's return to the DCU left many questions unanswered. Loeb will be addressing many of those questions and providing new ones in the pages of a new, ongoing "Supergirl" series with artist Ian Churchill, tentatively scheduled to debut this July from DC Comics. CBR News caught up with Loeb to get the low-down on his plans for Kara Zor-El.

To begin with, Loeb reintroduced the character and caught us up on what's happened within the pages of "Superman/Batman." "Kara -- she's more Kara Zor-El at this point having not been Supergirl for very long -- is in her mid-teens (we haven't locked that down yet, but she's comparable with the Teen Titan kids)," Loeb told CBR News. "She is Superman's cousin. Her Uncle was Jor-El -- just like most folks remember the origin. But, she is not the Silver Age Supergirl. That Supergirl died tragically during 'Crisis' and has been swept out of history -- so there really isn't anyone to compare her to (and yes, I've read and am a big fan of 'Many Happy Returns!'😉."

Loeb noted that Kara was sent to Earth in a rocket ship at roughly the same time as Kal-El, except her ship fell in to a crevice as Krypton blew up. The ship became embedded in a chunk of the planet, becoming a giant meteor that headed towards Earth, a storyline dealt with in the first six issues of "Superman/Batman."

"One of the nice parts about working on this title is I have the ability to tell self-contained stories with arcs, but with elements of the next story or past stories that are very gently mentioned," continued Loeb. "For example, the entire basis of Lex Luthor's attack on Superman in 'Superman/Batman' #1-6 was that he had information that the meteor came from the Planet Krypton and was headed toward Earth because Superman was here. Ironically, that was true to a certain extent in that the navigational system in the rocket was locked on Kal-El. So, maybe Luthor wasn't so crazy after all. Worse, we find out in the Supergirl arc that it was Darkseid who had been tracking it all along and because we know that Luthor and Darkseid share an alliance, it could have been very reliable information.

"All of that aside, however, Kara spent most of 'Superman/Batman' #8 - 13 trying to discover who she is and what she wants to be. This will be a continuing theme for the first year of the title. Usually, a hero puts on the costume and goes out and does the job. Kara's not so sure -- she's very new at this -- all of this. Earth. Powers. Hero. It's all new. But, she's very strong willed and determined to make it work. That has both good and bad in it. It's important to remember that she's a teenager. And most fifteen, sixteen year olds don't really know what want to do with their lives.

"That coupled with the possibility that she's even more powerful than Superman brings the problem to a whole new level. She also has this side of her that Darkseid either created or brought out who is essentially Dark Kara. She knows that is inside her. So, is she this badass who is pretending to be innocent and lovely or is she innocent and lovely and was turned briefly into a badass? It really is the story of someone who has greatness thrust up on her."

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Might be a good idea to post one of Loeb's interviews here.
They are, unfortunately, very hard to find now.
I'll likely post the text after this message.

For now, though, here's a URL to one of the more famous ones I remember:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&old=1&id=4651

Jeph Loeb On His Plans For The Summer Debuting "Supergirl" Series
(Part 2 of 3)

The action begins for Kara in the pages of "Superman/Batman" #19, which serves as something of a zero issue for the ongoing "Supergirl" series. Loeb said that issue sets up some of the background for the regular series and fills readers in on what Kara's been up to since "Superman/Batman" #13. Loeb added, "We also learn that Superman and Batman have continued to keep tabs on her and as her 'uncles' (in a very loosely defined way), they feel very responsible -- particularly Superman who still has to learn to let this girl go her own way. But -- and here's the fun -- they aren't the only one's watching. That mystery is tied into 'Identity Crisis' and I've been talking to Brad Meltzer who is such an inspiration for where this is all headed!"

Loeb's already established that Batman doesn't entirely trust this new Supergirl, yet he trusts the judgment of Superman who does trust her, although Batman's been keeping an eye on Supergirl regardless. Loeb said this plot point will definitely be explored further in the pages of "Supergirl." The writer noted, "The truth is we don't know very much about this girl other than what she's told us and frighteningly, there's not much chance of finding out what she is saying is true. Or at least, that's how Batman sees it..."

Ultimately, Loeb's goal with "Supergirl" is to establish Kara as the one, true Supergirl in the DC Universe. "She's Superman's cousin -- that's a huge legacy to live up to. How can she deal with that? And like 'Superman/Batman,' it will be huge in scope. This label that folks have put on me as 'the Jerry Brukheimer of Comics' I find as a huge compliment. You know, when they were called Spielberg movies ('Jaws,' 'Close Encounters,' 'Jurassic Park'😉 'popcorn movies' were fun. Somehow the snooties decided that popcorn was all popped out. But, when you look at how many times 'Superman/Batman' has been the #1 book, and always in the top five, we may be onto something that we can't really explain other than it's not so bad to have fun for your $2.99!"

Fans can expect a Power Girl/Supergirl battle in the pages of "Supergirl" #1. At the moment, Supergirl is clearly Loeb's character to define, while Power Girl is a character that Geoff Johns has been spending time defining in the pages of "JSA." In addition to being two of DC's big-guns, Loeb and Johns are close friends and share office space together in Los Angeles, so Loeb has Johns' total approval to work with Power Girl.

"I wouldn't dare do a Power Girl story without Geoff on my shoulder," said Loeb. "And yes, there will be some reveals about Power Girl's origins in that first issue. Don't forget, it's got the whole blammed JSA there -- Power Girl is just a part of it."

In the beginning "Supergirl" will be about finding out who Kara is, according to Loeb, and that includes where she is and whom she's been spending time with. "The promise at the end of 'Superman/Batman" #13 - that there are places to be and teams to meet - The Teen Titans, The JSA, The Outsiders and The JLA - who will all be there in one way or another. And then, we can't forget about Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman -- they are all very important right now."