Superman vs. Wonder Woman · Comic Book 'Versus' Forum

bluewaterrider Senior Member

Page 118, continued (from previous post)

Originally posted by Delta1938

~~For comparison, Ursa was able to restrain Kara single-handedly until Krypto, Superboy and Steel saved her.~~
~~But Supergirl is stronger than Superman, so I guess this means Supergir>Superman>Non/Ursa>Ursa>Supergirl? mmm~~
And it doesn't really matter if you argue Ursa isn't stronger than Kara, that she used technique. Even if you can prove Kara is stronger than Ursa, the fact is she needed no help to restrain Kara. Yet she had help from Non(likely the strongest Kryptonian after Superman) and still failed to restrain Kal.
~~Oh, and we have this, too.~~
I have no doubt the rage and grief Kara was going through at the moment would hinder her combat formidablity. But her strength? Er.....no. It just means she's even more unrestrained than usual. And Supes still grabs her leg and ragdolls her, then after taking a coupe unexpected punches that place him in an inferior position, catches her punch and ends the spat.

All of the above was post-2008 retcon.

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

Yeah, Zod isn't a kryptonian man.

Surprises, surprises.

bluewaterrider Senior Member

responses to page 118 questions, continued

Originally posted by Delta1938
(CONTINUED)
~~I wonder if you even read HUNTER/PREY or OWAW?~~

Parts of it, at least.
Many parts of it.

But also many years ago now, and with relatively light reading treatment.

Originally posted by Delta1938
(CONTINUED)
In H/P, the most technical Doomsday got was breaking Superman's arm, which was much more brute strength than finesse. He just grabbed Superman's arm with one hand, and smashed it with the other arm. In OWAW, the most technical Doomsday got was ripping an Imperiex Probe's head off. And it's not like that was anything special, he just grabbed it and tore it off.

Sounds like Doomsday is somebody Superman should be wary of regardless of circumstances, then.

bluewaterrider Senior Member

responses to page 118 questions, continued

Originally posted by Delta1938

And REALLY? You say I posted scans that go against my argument, except there was context you left out/were ignorant of, and I'm reasonably sure I mentioned Brainiac was controlling Doomsday in my post you referred to, and then I correct you and you do NOT ADMIT YOUR ERROR? REALLY?
Also, I could be wrong, but I believe that was a different Doomsday in the scan you posted now. Even if I were wrong, Doomsday-Rex(I think the name was) did nothing in that comic to indicate he'd use the same types of tactics as Wonder Woman. And, he also proved incapable of keeping-up with Superman's speed.

This was explained already. Though you probably meant well, the error was yours, not mine. I explained why this was so on the fifth post of page 118.

Originally posted by Delta1938
You should really think about what Rao said, Blue. You always do this. In that long, drawn-out "debate" we had on Superman vs Wonder Woman's strength on the Superman boards, you just kept ignoring evidence, arguments and questions, if you did acknowledge only partially, and when it got really bad for you, changed the subject.

Can't argue I'm ignoring questions when I'm using my current method of response.

bluewaterrider Senior Member

Originally posted by Delta1938
~~You would have a point if Loeb's storyline where Supergirl was stronger didn't end in Superman is the stronger, he just holds back and Kara doesn't have the same control over her powers.~~
~~Wait, didn't you just do what you accused me of?~~

I read you just fine.

I read Loeb's storyline just fine.

If it were even half as definitive as you think, Loeb would not have Batman pulling out kryptonite when Kara challenges Blue's speech, Verheiden wouldn't have Blackrock acknowledging Kara as stronger after they reference Kara's fight with the Justice League. Greg Rucka wouldn't have her twice defeating Ultraman.

Joe Kelly wouldn't have her still disbelieving Superman's speech in Supergirl #15 after she has been made whole again, show faster recovery ability under sunlight in Supergirl 13, or angrily tell Power Boy she really did outrace Superman after she has caught up to Power Boy .

Little if any of that makes much sense if what you're saying is true.

Fact is, that's not what SG5 says. The best we're given is a "maybe".
From a Clark who demonstrated in his last engagement with Kara that he can actively "trick" himself into believing things that aren't so just to put himself in the right mindset for battle (he was lying throughout the entirety of his fight with Darkseid, note). Mouthing a theory put forth by Batman. Who is famously willing to do whatever it takes to win. Including lie through his teeth. And, who, again, feels little need to take matters into his own kryptonite-ringed hand until Dark Kara challenges Clark.

There's too much against that theory to claim your interpretation of it as fact.
If it were just Loeb you might have a convincing argument.

But "Kara is actually stronger" is supported by the circumstances of her stories as written by Loeb, Verheiden, Rucka, Kelly, AND Mark Waid.

Until, of course, the retcon of Kara's history roundabout 2008.

Then, even though we see Kara acquitting herself well against most, she no longer has a true ideological BASIS for her performance.

Diesldude Senior Member

Blue, why are you striking his quotes?

Rao Kal El DJ FrostByte

Originally posted by Diesldude
Blue, why are you striking his quotes?

He is striking every question made by Delta after he responds it.

Still the IMO is a laughable argument.

I do wish since Blue has all the time to post here, that We could make this more formal with judges so, even if he denies evidence judges won't, I will more than willing to BZ this with you Blue.

and in any case is not like your time frame argument matters.

OP DIDN'T ASK SUPERMAN VS WONDER WOMAN FROM 2003 TO 2008

So your "rules" only apply for you and We don't have to follow your rules or standards, not that you are right even on that time frame anyway, but if you really like this "debate" so much We should make it more formal, since you have been spending so much time in here, the next logical step will be to do just that. In my opinion.

bluewaterrider Senior Member

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
He is striking every question made by Delta after he responds it.

Yes I am.

As I said I would.

And I must say it's somewhat disconcerting to see that I can tell people I would strike Delta's questions as they're responded to,
to show Delta they've been responded to, and do exactly that ... and then get asked why I'm striking Delta's questions.

No offense meant to Dielsdude (I can readily understand what made him post that), but it makes me realize just how extraordinarily oblivious most people are
when following these threads they're commenting on.

In fact, Branlor Swift notwithstanding ...

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I've only read the quote where Delta is telling to post posts in succession and that's all I read on this page ....

... I must compliment Delta, and say it really IS a rare thing to have someone like him,
who at least makes an effort to see what his opponent has written before giving his response.

bluewaterrider Senior Member

Originally posted by bluewaterrider to delta1938
Since I said "we'll see" in regards to answering everything you asked, I'll first limit the majority of my responses to most anything you asked when you resumed this line of questioning roundabout pages 117 and then proceed on through to the current one, which is 127, in random order.
I'll use the strike feature to eliminate your questions as I've answered them.
~~Like so.~~.
So that we will indeed see if I missed anything reasonable you posed.
We can adjust later, as need be.

Good idea to take the time to check where we are.
I covered 117 and 118 already; pages 120 through 123 have nothing to respond to for the simple fact that you didn't make any posts to me.

So the list now looks like so:

Page 117
Page 118

Page 119

Page 120
Page 121
Page 122
Page 123

Page 124
Page 125
Page 126
Page 127

Prof. T.C McAbe Kryptonian Scientist

I have to admit, even though I read a lot of Superman comics, that I wasn't aware how uber he is, that's why I have seen them both close and saw WW having a real chance. But a serious Clark without PIS and a serious Diana without PIS is a loopsided battle, a battle she can't win.

bluewaterrider Senior Member

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I do wish since Blue has all the time to post here, that We could make this more formal with judges so, even if he denies evidence judges won't, I will more than willing to BZ this with you Blue.

Blue does NOT have "all the time to post here".
My time is actually fairly limited, which is why I normally don't bother responding to things that don't seem relevant or offer any real redeeming compensation.

Apparently you don't really have the time to Battlezone either, for you've not responded to my earlier requests, telling me you were involved in two other debates and would have to get to me later.

To date you have also not matched against Letters in BZ, though I seem to recall him accepting your challenge several weeks ago.

bluewaterrider Senior Member

Originally posted by Delta1938
~~Aren't you a college professor?~~

You seem to follow me more carefully than most.

It's true there have been several people both asking and thanking me for help given them in school, directing them to resources, inspiring them or even being welcome support during difficult times in their college career.
The number of people that have done this in real life surprises me.
You might have even seen a poster thank me for help with one of his projects or papers.

But I'm not a college professor.
And never once claimed to be.

Rao Kal El DJ FrostByte

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Blue does NOT have "all the time to post here".
My time is actually fairly limited, which is why I normally don't bother responding to things that don't seem relevant or offer any real redeeming compensation.
Apparently you don't really have the time to Battlezone either, for you've not responded to my earlier requests, telling me you were involved in two other debates and would have to get to me later.
To date you have also not matched against Letters in BZ, though I seem to recall him accepting your challenge several weeks ago.

Me neither, I have a lot of work to do and I mean a LOT. But We can still debate in a more formal manner.

I have not responded to you, because my pending BZ with Letters and I don't want to give my debate away through here, the BZ hasn't happened because Letter's has been busy and since I am busy I welcome the "break"

But I can do it with you or Letters and We can put a time frame to finish this or We can only discuss the Sacrifice story arc, which will not require to much and will be more than happy to have judges rule that "Superman's vague memories" written by Rucka mean that Superman was not in a "murderous rampage" like you often claim even after the evidence that has been presented to you.

So We can only do Sacrifice and Greg Rucka related material to prove who is stronger, that won't take long

carver9 Senior Member

It's obvious Superman is stronger than Diana. Who's debating against that?

Rao Kal El DJ FrostByte

Originally posted by carver9
It's obvious Superman is stronger than Diana. Who's debating against that?

Blue I think from 2003 to 2008?

But I think he wins 8/10 in character and 10/10 all out

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Blue I think from 2003 to 2008?
But I think he wins 8/10 in character and 10/10 all out

Sounds about right. But I'd probably say 7/10 in Character. And 9/10 all out. He could always lose 1 due to her magical weapons IMO.

bluewaterrider Senior Member

Originally posted by Delta1938

What about when I pointed-out how Superman had beaten Luthor in his powered armor with little more than brute strength despite much greater Kryptonite effect, compared to Supergirl getting owned and Dark Kara requiring skill and versatility and still having trouble? Oh, you argued that Kara had much greater Kryptonite poisoning due to a retcon that I believe was under a different writer. If so, then you can't cite that to counter Loeb having Superman show to be stronger than Supergirl compared to fights with Luthor even though Superman was heavily effected by Kryptonite. So, yeah, Loeb's comparative performances against Luthor has Superman>Supergirl.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm made to wonder how you can argue Superman has such great resistance to kryptonite on the one hand, and then argue that Superman [b]near the sun should be so affected by the tiny amount of kryptonite in Batman's ring that it would cancel out all sun-proximity benefit.
Is that what you call "consistency"?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Nope, that's not consistency. It's also not what I argued. I don't recall my exact wording, but I basically said even under optimal conditions(for the ring) that Kryptonite would have minimal effect. It's other people who argued it would cancel out the Sun. I pointed-out they weren't as close to the Sun as you wish.
But, let me guess, you mixing me up with others is irrelevant?

So Superman has great resistance to kryptonite, such that the ring should only affect him a little normally, and much less so under Sacrifice conditions, according to you?

That makes the ring just about meaningless and what Diana endured even more impressive, then. For the only thing it really accomplished, to follow your line of thought, was to fool Diana into thinking it should do something debilitatingly effective to him, and thus inadvertently made her put her guard down long enough to receive that haymaker response.

Diesldude Senior Member

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

No offense meant to Dielsdude (I can readily understand what made him post that), but it makes me realize just how extraordinarily oblivious most people are
when following these threads they're commenting on.

I've been oblivious because i've been really busy at work and just check sporadically. I'll admit i haven't read the last few pages full of walls of text so i was unaware that you were striking them out as you answered delta's questions. I also wasn't commenting on the thread or topic at hand, just was curious why you were doing it. Sorry I missed your original post and forced you to explain yourself even though Rao had already done it..

bluewaterrider Senior Member

Originally posted by Delta1938
The Ultraman that Supergirl faced had witnessed the COIE, had survived in the Phantom Zone, was powered by sunlight, raised by Saturn Queen, and unmarried. His personality was also much different. And he was constantly referred to as "Kal-El," with no reference to being Clark Kent, or from an antimatter world. ~~If you try to argue the Ultraman from THE BRAVE & THE BOLD, that appeared to be yet another incarnation of Ultraman, despite common elements.~~

Indeed, Brave and Bold's does appear to be a different incarnation of Ultraman. If you're serious about your offer, I'd be very interested in having a few scans from that B&B Ultraman story, at least those where they mention for both Karas how sunlight increases their powers. I seem to remember JSA Kara explaining this as they rip open a ship or something, but I don't own that issue, which, IIRC, is Brave and the Bold #11, Volume 3:

http://www.nowisnottherhyme.net/braveandtheboldvolume3

bluewaterrider Senior Member

Originally posted by Diesldude
I've been oblivious because i've been really busy at work and just check sporadically.
I'll admit i haven't read the last few pages full of walls of text so i was unaware that you were striking them out as you answered delta's questions.

Your admission is appreciated, and, yes, indeed, there are walls of text.

I was just re-examining some of the posts Delta logged in on page 199.
I'm counting well over 30 different topics to address if he actually wants an answer to every point, as he says he does. All that in JUST the first post ...

This may take a little longer than I anticipated.