Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You weren't.
And I wasn't even trying to be subtle.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You should just tell me from the start instead of trying to get me to ask.
I need to be super-duper blunt, PAINFULLY blunt, or you'll miss it. Gotcha.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😬Dude, did you REALLY expect me or anyone else to think you were addressing that video in any significant way when the following is the post that sentence appears in?
If you consider your writing the above clear enough for me to understand you were somehow addressing that clip, then yes, you need to be a lot more "blunt" in our discussions.
In the context of it replying to quoiting a link you posted, yeah, I thought it was clear enough.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Delta.Man up.
Under 700 or above?
Ya know, you've yet to reply to anything, and it's standard procedure for you to ignore arguments and questions that demolish your stance. And yet you have the nerve to tell me to "man-up" about something irrelevant?
You bringing it up in the first place had a relevant point, but based on faulty information. You indirectly accused me of going on YouTube to post comments against your interpretation of what happened, yet if you go back, the very day you posted that link there were people saying the same thing I did. I'd imagine people saying that goes back further.
So, basically, it looks like you ****ed up by taking something you didn't understand and posting it, and now that you got caught with your pants down you're in damage control mode. And then you're taking it further off-topic and saying I need to man-up after everything you've failed to acknowledge that IS relevant to the topic.. It's rather insulting, actually.
And yes, I know Rao and I have taken things off-topic bashing Quanny. But you know the difference? Quanny is an annoying little ******* who intentionally pisses people off, so things just end-up going off-topic with her. But that's not typically intentional on Rao or my part. You, on the other hand, are in the role of Quanny. Not an ******* pretending to be an alpha male for the lulz, but yes, I do believe you're intentionally diverting things away in your damage control mode. You man-up(you're the only one here who has to; Quanny would've had to be one in the first place) and reply to everything I post from now, and reply to what I previously posted.
But even though you don't deserve it, I'll answer anyways. Over 700. And unlike that girl, I actually do it right. Now, I would appreciate it if you didn't continue with this irrelevant bullshit until you've at least manned-up and answered my prior posts.
As for what's next, no, I'm not being a hypocrite by only replying to parts, since I'm picking and choosing wasn't directed at me. If there's anything you asked Rao that you'd like to ask me(or think is relevant to something I replied to) go ahead and ask.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Second, I am not "ignoring context" or "dismissing evidence".
I am disagreeing with a [b]theory.That is all you have. [/B]
Nope, I posted the comparative examples. Superman is superior to Supergirl under Loeb. The Source Wall and Luthor examples back it. Your argument against Luthor is based off ignorance of how much Kryptonite Superman was exposed to as well as other factors, and assuming the black Kryptonite had a weakening effect. The Source Wall example you dismiss by ignoring Kara had help, as was clear to someone who isn't trying to put others over Superman for whatever reason.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You do NOT have anything even resembling ironclad proof despite your protestations. Batman himself, who proposed your theory under Loeb, gave that as one of several. His own actions in Supergirl #5 betray lack of confidence in it. Dark Kara doesn't believe that theory in SG #5 when Superman says it, and Supergirl doesn't believe him 10 issues later under Joe Kelly, in SG #15, either, as evidenced by her dialogue with Power Boy, or Superman himself a few issues after that. Mark Verheiden flatly contradicts it in Superman #223, which chronologically follows and references this episode, and neither Greg Rucka nor Mark Waid, who have Kara shaming nearly everyone who even resembles Superman afterward (i.e. Bizarro, Ultraman, Power Boy, Mon-el, correction Bizarro is under Loeb) seem to put much stock in it, either.
I'd like issue references. Not to mention the fact that you don't even have the right Ultraman. Are you even aware of that? Unless that Ultraman appeared anywhere other than that storyline, you're arguing Supergirl>Superman because she beat an Ultraman whose only feats are 2 losses to Supergirl. Oh and I've alread covered Verheiden, although I'm sure you're going to disagree. Since you can't even man-up and admit you got the leg press thing wrong.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I am looking at the same stories you two are and coming to a different conclusion. I'm not "ignoring" evidence. If anything, YOU are the one ignoring evidence and trying to turn it around.
How is it Rao or I are ignoring evidence and trying to turn it around? By and large you've failed to back your claims, have proven to cite stories you only partially read and don't even give a disclaimer that you didn't read the whole thing, and argue wrong versions of characters. For ****'s sake, you tried arguing Superman didn't one-shot the "right" Bizarro with freeze breath because he "didn't look right" but then go on and argue Supergirl beating Ultraman? Here's the Ultraman you thought she fought.
The Ultraman that Kara ACTUALLY fought.
Here's the Ultraman you think Kara fought, mentioning he's got to get to his Anti-Kryponite for a charge.
Here's the Ultraman that she actually fought being charged by yellow sunlight.
The Ultraman you thought she fought is from an antimatter universe. The Ultraman that Kara fought? No mention of it. He also mentioned experiencing the CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS but was stuck in the Phantom Zone. The Ultraman you thought he was had no idea there were parallel universes, and in fact didn't know there was positive matter universes, until his Luthor brought the JLA in. The Ultraman you thought Kara fought was human astronaut Clark Kent rebuilt by extraterrestrials. The Ultraman that Kara actually fought appears to be Kryptonian(powered by yellow solar energy) and named "Kal-El." The Ultraman you thought he was is married to Superwoman. The Ultraman Kara fought was looking for a bride. The Ultraman Kara fought was calling Saturn Queen "mother." Nothing I'm aware of connecting the Ultraman you mixed him up with to the Legion Of Super-Villains in general or Saturn Queen specifically.
Are you going to man-up and admit your error? And do you have anything else for this Ultraman? If not, and he only appeared in that storyline, your argument is based on Supergirl beating an Ultraman whose only feats are losing to Supergirl twice. I suppose with Blue-Logic this "tiny" detail won't matter and this Ultraman is automatically the equal of Superman just because he's a dimensional counter-part to Superman. Or, in reality, he's automatically equal to Superman because you want Kara getting a definitive win over him to count towards your argument that she's superior to Superman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If we're specifically referring to Wonder Woman 2003 to Flashpoint, Supergirl 2003 to 2008 just before Sterling Gates and the retconning of her character and character history, and Superman from 2003 to 2008 in terms of sheer physical strength, then yes, you're absolutely right.
How about instead of sticking to these timelines you don't seem to even follow WHEN it suits your case, you provide proof of any change in power? I want an actual storyline saying Wonder Woman got powered-up, Supergirl got powered down and on-panel acknowledgement of a change in power. If you cannot provide these, then you're just making a standard that suits your purposes instead of going with what the comics show. After all, I saw you make arguments for Wonder Woman being more powerful in some way Post-2003 that didn't hold-up when compared to similar or superior examples from 2001 and earlier.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If we're talking instead about how effective they'd be as fighters, however, especially fighting against one another, then BARRING Superman simply managing to grab hold and score on Wonder Woman with his mightiest heat vision blast, which I'm not doing (which is why I gave Superman a slight majority in an actual "best of ability" fight), my ranking would be:amazonian woman > Superman > Kryptonian girl.
That's why more often than not Superman comes-out superior against either when it comes down to common opponents. Even in the time periods you're making to suit your stance(and don't even provide much to back your claim then).[/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Did I say anywhere that I would do that all in one day, in one post or even in order?
I understand you taking time TO write it up, but you better damn well post all the replies in the same session, one after the other. And you better do it in order. Otherwise it'll be taken as a concession and you manipulatively trying to avoid answering things.
After all, it's quite obvious how not posting it all at once, and worse, doing it out of order, would make it much easier to "miss" things like a weasel. Are you going to prove to be a dishonest and weasel your way out of things? Did I give you too much credit giving you the benefit of the doubt that you'll be honest and try to reply to everything I posted? hm I hope you're neither being ironic nor delusional in telling me to "man-up."
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You offered to provide scans from various magazines.I'd appreciate if you provided the relevant scenes now from Superman Volume 2 #218. The reason is I recall Superman giving EXTREME heat vision treatment to the previous possessor of the Blackrock, but could be mistaken (I don't think I am, but I could be), to the point where things nearby were suffering from the heat. Bear in mind the Blackrock is sentient with a type of memory, strange though that may sound. So the Blackrock would have THAT showing of vision to compare with the blast Supergirl gave its new possessor in Superman Volume 2 #223.
Unfortunately, the only image I have left in my collection of the SM 218 story is the following:
You're partially right, but this was done after Superman had already been blasted twice and punched Blackrock. Sam had come-out different than the prior Blackrock users(Pre-CRISIS, but referenced Post-CRISIS in SUPERMAN and SUPERMAN SECRET FILES).
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Blackrock/Sam_Benjamin
Going by the Blackrock's memory doesn't prove anything, since Supergirl didn't beat Lucia like Superman did Sam. We only have Lucia's words comparing the two.
Originally posted by Delta1938That's why more often than not Superman comes-out superior against either when it comes down to common opponents. Even in the time periods you're making to suit your stance(and don't even provide much to back your claim then).
No, Superman usually does better than Wonder Woman against common opponents because he has greater invulnerability and innate range of powers.
Superman usually does better than Supergirl against common opponents WHEN he does (note that he often doesn't), because of his greater fight experience.
If you want to convince me otherwise, you'll have to prove what you're saying with numerous examples.
Originally posted by Delta1938I understand you taking time TO write it up, but you better ... post all the replies in the same session, one after the other. And you better do it in order. Otherwise it'll be taken as a concession and you manipulatively trying to avoid answering things.
After all, it's quite obvious how not posting it all at once, and worse, doing it out of order, would make it much easier to "miss" things like a weasel. Are you going to prove to be a dishonest and weasel your way out of things? Did I give you too much credit giving you the benefit of the doubt that you'll be honest and try to reply to everything I posted? hm I hope you're neither being ironic nor delusional in telling me to "man-up."
I'll be posting the way I choose to post. Don't pretend for a moment your insults would cease regardless of what I type down here; I've had too many years of experience with you and watching your "debate" style to fall for that line of thinking.
Since I said "we'll see" in regards to answering everything you asked, I'll first limit the majority of my responses to most anything you asked when you resumed this line of questioning roundabout pages 117 and then proceed on through to the current one, which is 127, in random order.
I'll use the strike feature to eliminate your questions as I've answered them.Like so..
So that we will indeed see if I missed anything reasonable you posed.
We can adjust later, as need be.
Originally posted by Delta1938even though you don't deserve it, I'll answer anyways. Over 700. And unlike that girl, I actually do it right ... Oh and I've already covered Verheiden, although I'm sure you're going to disagree. Since you can't even man-up and admit you got the leg press thing wrong.
The point with the video was to show that even real world women are sometime stronger than bigger muscular looking men.
Yes, in some cases, even teenage girls. Especially if those girls are in the habit of handling what we think of as far heavier than normal weight.
Given what we saw in my submission of those Legion of Superhero #23 scans concerning Rokyn yesterday, the relevance to Supergirl, born and raised to mid-adolescence on extremely heavy gravity Krypton, versus Superman, raised on much lighter gravity Earth, should be obvious.
Being right or wrong in your specific case, assuming I am, is ultimately meaningless in regards to that basic point, something you yourself probably recognize.
If you're curious why the number 700, it is because that is roughly 2/3rds of the
1100 being pressed by the girl in that video, regardless of how much range of motion she is covering in her movement.
I thought about those numbers because of the following article, which I found interesting and determined to share with you:
http://www.fitstep.com/Misc/Newsletter-archives/issue16/partial-training.htm
Originally posted by Delta1938You're partially right, but this was done after Superman had already been blasted twice and punched Blackrock. Sam had come-out different than the prior Blackrock users(Pre-CRISIS, but referenced Post-CRISIS in SUPERMAN and SUPERMAN SECRET FILES).
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Blackrock/Sam_Benjamin
Going by the Blackrock's memory doesn't prove anything, since Supergirl didn't beat Lucia like Superman did Sam. We only have Lucia's words comparing the two.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here now.
Your particular point of contention before was that Supergirl's heat vision was somehow hotter than Superman's and that's why Lucia said she was stronger than Superman.
But that doesn't seem likely.
Because it doesn't seem likely that what Supergirl produced in ANY way matched what we saw Superman unleash several issues prior on sentient Blackrock when Sam was wearing it. Different wearer, same stone, and the stone has a mind of it's own with memory.
You have to assume Kara was unleashing power to the extreme if you think she was exceeding that Metropolis burning, far more than anything the visuals suggest.
From page 117:
Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't go by the Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman because he's a man, due to their different origins and power sources.
1. A lot of people do argue "man, so greater than woman".
Going by real life generalities.
So I addressed that.
Women, sometimes even young girls, who actually have long-term experience with heavy weight, are often stronger than bigger, more muscular men. That was the point of the video, and something you've tacitly acknowledged as correct.
2. One source of Superman's power, the main source of Superman's power, is the Sun. Generally the closer he is to it, the more powerful he gets, including in terms of physical strength. He had FAR more than average exposure to the sun in Rucka's Sacrifice, the most widely-known Superman/Wonder Woman fight for the pre-Flashpoint version of these characters, to the point where even P.R. thinks it ridiculous to argue against that.
Originally posted by Delta1938
I go by Superman is stronger because of his feats and showings,
I'm having a hard time recalling anything greater than the Earth pulling feat of JLA v1 #75 that was accomplished without a sundip, and/or the aid of others or the like on Superman's part. Later on, of course, we see Superman unable to halt the progression of a "mere" moon, Callisto, though he has the aid of more than a dozen other Kryptonians.
And I certainly do not see where the vast majority of non-planetary level feats are something Wonder Woman is precluded from doing.
I see a lot of cases instead where people will argue, say, in JLA/JSA Vice and Virtue, that Superman does stuff like shield the group from building collapse or lift that rubble off the group "because he's the strongest", when there's very little proof of that anywhere in the title, and the story itself actually contradicts that assertion.
[QUOTE=14866126]Originally posted by Delta1938
including blatantly overpowering Wonder Woman.
1. Even now, with the recent fight between Wraith and Superman, we see fighters who are weaker than their opponents still managing to take them from point A to point B suddenly and swiftly, despite great resistance.
(See scan at end of this post.)
And yes, Wraith is not only stronger than Superman but can and demonstrably does fly in their encounter.
We see that with Wonder Woman and Genocide.
We see that with Wonder Woman and Amazo.
We see that with Superman and (by your admission) Darkseid in S/B #13, though it can be argued that perhaps Darkseid cannot fly, though he certainly has the ability to Boom Tube anywhere he sees fit.
We see that with Superman and Wraith.
The sun shuttling in Sacrifice in no way proves that Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman if you're arguing that Darkseid is stronger than Superman yet had the same thing done to him and CERTAINLY reached the sun (according to you), a 50 million-plus mile trip, and Superman, of course, has every REASON to be once exposed to enough light at whatever critical point they reach.
Even Time Immemorial, who seems to have the least participation and familiarity with Superman of virtually any other poster in this thread, recognized that fact.
2. I have yet to see any counter or even acknowledgement of my example of Hulk being choked out by Juggernaut, a more invulnerable but generally held to be less-strong foe. And Juggernaut's choke is a ONE-handed version of choke, while Superman uses both hands, does it while speedily zooming around, approaching the sun, and blasting Diana in the face with his heat vision.
I'd like to see you address that.
Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't go by the Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman because he's a man, due to their different origins and power sources. I go by Superman is stronger because of his feats and showings, including blatantly overpowering Wonder Woman.But that logic applies to Superman/Supergirl.
Supergirl being stronger than Superman is only going if, you know, you ignored the actual end of the storyline and we find-out Kara simply doesn't have Kal's restraint. Superman's got a lot of showings before and after that simply prove he's stronger. Your ignorance doesn't mean valid evidence doesn't exist, and you've been shown. He's caught her punch and sent her flying back, overpowered Ursa(who overwhelmed Kara) and Non AT ONCE, amongst numerous other examples.Your desire to put women ahead of men for whatever reason doesn't mean that you're correct.
Of course there's exceptions, but you're not really aware of context for her and others.
Also Blue, do you acknowledge you argued the Doomsday technique scans out of context?
Everything lined out above has been addressed, the only significant post of questions you asked me from page 117.
A. I already told you that I argued the Doomsday technique precisely because I DID know of at least 2 occasions where Doomsday at first presented dumb, but then displayed intelligence by speaking or using slightly more advanced fight tactcis.
B. Supergirl #5 I've covered at length.
C. Ursa is post-Gates and thus post-Supergirl,Birthright retcon.
For the rest, all that remains to say is:
1) Your desire to always have men ahead of women doesn't mean that you're correct, especially not in the face of contradictory evidence; there ARE exceptions to be found, even in real life, let alone comics.
2) If I'm not "really aware" speak and present your arguments plainly.
We're beyond the point where subtlety and non - "blunt" ness communicates effectively between us, assuming it ever did.
3) Your analysis of encounters like those in For Tomorrow show that context is not YOUR friend, either.
Completion of page 117.
Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't go by the Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman because he's a man, due to their different origins and power sources. I go by Superman is stronger because of his feats and showings, including blatantly overpowering Wonder Woman.But that logic applies to Superman/Supergirl. Supergirl being stronger than Superman is only going if, you know, you ignored the actual end of the storyline and we find-out Kara simply doesn't have Kal's restraint. Superman's got a lot of showings before and after that simply prove he's stronger. Your ignorance doesn't mean valid evidence doesn't exist, and you've been shown. He's caught her punch and sent her flying back, overpowered Ursa(who overwhelmed Kara) and Non AT ONCE, amongst numerous other examples. Your desire to put women ahead of men for whatever reason doesn't mean that you're correct.
Of course there's exceptions, but you're not really aware of context for her and others.
Also Blue, do you acknowledge you argued the Doomsday technique scans out of context?
Delta,
All the questions in your post that are answerable on page 117 have been answered. By definition, refuting my level of awareness or non-awareness is virtually impossible; if I'm not aware myself, I'd have to be shown or made aware by an outside person or currently unknown information.
And the mere fact that you think the phrase "context for her and others" addressed the validity of that girl's feat, or even that you were ADDRESSING the matter of that clip in the first place, tells me I cannot know who, in your mind you're referring to at any given time.
Anyway, that's page 117.
I've only read the quote where Delta is telling to post posts in succession and that's all I read on this page.
However that's a hilarious idea. Maybe I'll do that sometime. Have some multiple post argument all ready to go and just post pieces of it at different days or weeks.
The idea train just keeps rolling. As does this awful thread.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I've only read the quote where Delta is telling to post posts in succession and that's all I read on this page.However that's a hilarious idea. Maybe I'll do that sometime. Have some multiple post argument all ready to go and just post pieces of it at different days or weeks.
The idea train just keeps rolling. As does this awful thread.
Yeah, this thread should've died for good a long time ago.
LOL. She got a so-called "technical" victory against a Superman who was at a huge disadvantage because he was hallucinating. Jesus Christ, that's only been said about 900 times in this thread. Despite Diana getting a technical win, that fight proves that Superman is way above her. If you actually take the time to carefully read that entire fight and not just skip to the ending you should be able to clearly see that.
Originally posted by CadenceV2
Didn't Wonder Woman already beat a blood lusted mind control Superman? pretty sure that happened. Unless thats all out of context? Seem blood lusted in the scans and they fought at FTL speeds to the sun and back. That did happen.
Originally posted by CadenceV2
I saw a blood lusted Supes pull no punches against Wonder Woman hallucination or not 🙂 she won.
And how did she won? Superman wasn't knocked out or even incapacitated. He was talking with a slit throat and the shock of the lift of mental control. The same mental control lift knocked him out before that.
And a mod has ruled out Sacrifice being used to denote an all out Superman fighting Diana. So bring it at your own peril.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Superman is only the strongest because there were no other Kryptonian men?
Before the retcon of Kara as resident of the planet Krypton to the mere asteroid Argo, before her de-aging from 17 back to around 15, before Sterling Gates, and before the World of New Krypton with kryptonians from a Krypton with gravity apparently similar to Earth's?
Yes.
With the exception of the then-undiscovered people of Rokyn, Superman was then the strongest Kryptonian man only because there WERE no other Kryptonian men.
Originally posted by Delta1938
5 No-Name Kryptonian soldiers while Zod is punching him in the face.Gets tackled by Non(a genetic freak of Kryptonians) and despite his inferior position, catches Non's punch.
Ursa AND Non attempt to restrain Superman together, three times, and he breaks their attempt each time.
All of this is post-2008 and post Birthright-gravity Krypton.
