Originally posted by Delta1938She has the power and skill to exploit his magical weakness to get the job done. Face me directly like a man. Funny you said you'd cage fight me but won't even face me online.
Don't say that, or Quanny might complain to someone smart enough to tell her to put wings and a jetpack on a pig and then come bragging like it was her idea.
😂
Originally posted by Delta1938I guess I wasn't blunt enough when I first brought up the context.
You weren't.
Originally posted by Delta1938Should I just tell you from the start instead of trying to get you to ask?
You should just tell me from the start instead of trying to get me to ask.
Originally posted by Delta1938I guess you didn't catch it?
😬
Dude, did you REALLY expect me or anyone else to think you were addressing that video in any significant way when the following is the post that sentence appears in?
Originally posted by Delta1938I don't go by the Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman because he's a man, due to their different origins and power sources. I go by Superman is stronger because of his feats and showings, including blatantly overpowering Wonder Woman.
But that logic applies to Superman/Supergirl. Supergirl being stronger than Superman is only going if, you know, you ignored the actual end of the storyline and we find-out Kara simply doesn't have Kal's restraint. Superman's got a lot of showings before and after that simply prove he's stronger. Your ignorance doesn't mean valid evidence doesn't exist, and you've been shown. He's caught her punch and sent her flying back, overpowered Ursa(who overwhelmed Kara) and Non AT ONCE, amongst numerous other examples. Your desire to put women ahead of men for whatever reason doesn't mean that you're correct.
Of course there's exceptions, but you're not really aware of context for her and others.
Also Blue, do you acknowledge you argued the Doomsday technique scans out of context?
If you consider your writing the above clear enough for me to understand you were somehow addressing that clip, then yes, you need to be a lot more "blunt" in our discussions.
What now?
The whole written argument is tossed aside to find out if delta can lift 700 lbs on a leg press?
How is that relevvant to the topic? If he can or not is irrelevant.
I can leg press 700 lbs, hell I think I could go for 1000lbs and if I do it while my arms help my legs even better.
But how is it relevant if we can leg press that weight???
What does delta leg presing 1 lb , 100 lbs or 100000 lbs id RELEVANT here???
Honestly this serms like an attemp to divert attention.
So we have an exeption of a teenage girl who compared to an exeptional kid she will still be wraker.
Are you trying to say that superman is just an average kryptonian while Ww is an exeptional amazonian, therefore she is stronger?
First of all you are comparing Amazonians vs kryptonians.
Thats the first flaw
Second, you are ignoring the evidence and context presented to you.
Loeb explained you that is because superman grew on earth and uses more restrain than supergirl, yet you still "don't buy it" that is ingnoring evidence/context.
Since you think amazonian woman >Kryptonian girl > Superman.
But you keep ignoring context and dismissing evidence as "I don't buy it" that is a fallacy of disbelief
And enough to report a person for ignoring evidence
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elenough to report a person for ignoring evidence ...
First off, to ignore the amount of member bashing you and Delta have been engaging in against Quan and target me instead,
KMC would have to have some of the most biased moderation of any forum online.
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elyou keep ignoring context and dismissing evidence as "I don't buy it" that is a fallacy of disbelief
Second, I am not "ignoring context" or "dismissing evidence".
I am disagreeing with a theory.
That is all you have.
You do NOT have anything even resembling ironclad proof despite your protestations. Batman himself, who proposed your theory under Loeb, gave that as one of several. His own actions in Supergirl #5 betray lack of confidence in it. Dark Kara doesn't believe that theory in SG #5 when Superman says it, and Supergirl doesn't believe him 10 issues later under Joe Kelly, in SG #15, either, as evidenced by her dialogue with Power Boy, or Superman himself a few issues after that. Mark Verheiden flatly contradicts it in Superman #223, which chronologically follows and references this episode, and neither Greg Rucka nor Mark Waid, who have Kara shaming nearly everyone who even resembles Superman afterward (i.e. Bizarro, Ultraman, Power Boy, Mon-el, correction Bizarro is under Loeb) seem to put much stock in it, either.
I am looking at the same stories you two are and coming to a different conclusion. I'm not "ignoring" evidence. If anything, YOU are the one ignoring evidence and trying to turn it around.
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elyou think amazonian woman >Kryptonian girl > Superman.
If we're specifically referring to Wonder Woman 2003 to Flashpoint, Supergirl 2003 to 2008 just before Sterling Gates and the retconning of her character and character history, and Superman from 2003 to 2008 in terms of sheer physical strength, then yes, you're absolutely right.
If we're talking instead about how effective they'd be as fighters, however, especially fighting against one another, then BARRING Superman simply managing to grab hold and score on Wonder Woman with his mightiest heat vision blast, which I'm not doing (which is why I gave Superman a slight majority in an actual "best of ability" fight), my ranking would be:
amazonian woman > Superman > Kryptonian girl.
For Superman has 20 years of fight experience over Supergirl.
And, arguably, that many years of fight experience over virtually any version of Ultraman, too.
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elyou are comparing Amazonians vs kryptonians.
I am actually not. It was precisely to address opponents who WERE comparing Amazonians to kryptonians, though, that I decided to illustrate, that EVEN IN OUR REAL WORLD you have cases where women exceed bigger and more massive men in terms of physical strength. In point of fact, you even have teenaged girls who can do so, even if you compare their strength against say, a large-bodied fairly seasoned MMA fighter chosen at random.
Exceptional cases, to be sure, but THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH.
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElAre you trying to say that superman is just an average kryptonian while WW is an exceptional amazonian, therefore she is stronger?
The leg press example relates primarily to Supergirl, not Wonder Woman.
Specifically, it was a response to the following exchange, of which I only remembered Blue Area Vet's comment, and did not till now recall it was YOUR stance that Wonder Woman equated to a Kryptonian woman or Kryptonian girl till I checked out the page this appeared on:
Originally posted by krisblaze^I don't know, Wonder Woman looked strong against Supergirl.
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElOf Course she is a Woman, the other is a teenager girl m1705
Originally posted by Star428Besides that, Supergirl is no Superman. Clark has been soaking up yellow sunlight for much longer than her and he is much more experienced.
Originally posted by Blue Area VetA teenage girl physically on par with a woman. But a woman is not on par with a man.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=473829&pagenumber=83
😬
It was you who actually made the initial wrongful comparison between Amazons and Kryptonians, Salsa ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
First off, to ignore the amount of member bashing you and Delta have been engaging in against Quan and target me instead,
KMC would have to have some of the most biased moderation of any forum online.
Guilty as charged, but Quan does not need a white knight, plus if you have not following our exchanges then you have not realized that Quan is just trying to beat me at least ONCE, something that he has not accomplished ever, so he is a little obsessed with it.
In any case this does not justify that you engage in a similar behavior AFTER you said you will respond to every single point brought to you (which you haven't exactly) and now it seems you are trying to deflect attention into Delta leg pressing 700 lbs. That I still don't see how DELTA leg pressing 700 lbs and a teen girl doing is relevant.
One that girl is not Supergirl and DELTA is not Superman, that girl is a human but Delta is not a engineered perfect human.
So trying to compare both and saying "you see delta you can't lift 700 lbs and the girl can, so therefore Supergirl is stronger than Superman" is quite silly.
If you are trying to say that exceptional girls can lift more than regular guys MAYBE, but the girls legs press is not even done right, she is using her hands to push her knees. not to mention that EXCEPTIONAL GIRLS ARE RELATIVELY WEAKER TO EXCEPTIONAL GUYS.
If any this actually proves more that Superman holds back while Supergirl whom has arrived to earth will have a some difficulty trying to adapt to her new power, I MEAN, It was explained IN THE COMIC, and then you have all this evidence after that and you still claim that Supergirl is stronger than Superman
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Second, I am not "ignoring context" or "dismissing evidence".
I am disagreeing with a [b]theory. [/B]
Yes you are, Superman in a murderous rampage attacked Diana, bull rushed her to space and Diana could do virtually nothing until that point, it wasn't until Superman decided NOT TO KILL HER, But to make her suffer that she actually stood a chance to fight Superman, prior to that she almost couldn't do anything, yet you dismiss this "theory" when IS CLEAR ON PANEL AND IN THE COMIC, which you TRY to dismiss as "faulty memory" ignoring that this "faulty memory" is a narration created by GREG RUCKA!
So yes, you are dismissing evidence so you can create "your own theory"
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That is all you have.You do NOT have anything even resembling ironclad proof despite your protestations. Batman himself, who proposed your theory under Loeb, gave that as one of several. His own actions in Supergirl #5 betray lack of confidence in it. Dark Kara doesn't believe that theory in SG #5 when Superman says it, and Supergirl doesn't believe him 10 issues later under Joe Kelly, in SG #15, either, as evidenced by her dialogue with Power Boy, or Superman himself a few issues after that. Mark Verheiden flatly contradicts it in Superman #223, which chronologically follows and references this episode, and neither Greg Rucka nor Mark Waid, who have Kara shaming nearly everyone who even resembles Superman afterward (i.e. Bizarro, Ultraman, Power Boy, Mon-el, correction Bizarro is under Loeb) seem to put much stock in it, either.
I am looking at the same stories you two are and coming to a different conclusion. I'm not "ignoring" evidence. If anything, YOU are the one ignoring evidence and trying to turn it around.
If we're specifically referring to Wonder Woman 2003 to Flashpoint, Supergirl 2003 to 2008 just before Sterling Gates and the retconning of her character and character history, and Superman from 2003 to 2008 in terms of sheer physical strength, then yes, you're absolutely right.
This is just more of your own flavor and coking dude, you pick a period of time that more or less will back your opinion, but completely disregard the context of the stories and the circumstances in which the stories were presented.
To give you the perfect example is trying to compare Luthor's fight with Superman in public enemies to Luthor fighting Supergirl.
It is laughable because you are completely disregarding all the context of public enemies.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If we're talking instead about how effective they'd be as fighters, however, especially fighting against one another, then BARRING Superman simply managing to grab hold and score on Wonder Woman with his mightiest heat vision blast, which I'm not doing (which is why I gave Superman a slight majority in an actual "best of ability" fight), my ranking would be:amazonian woman > Superman > Kryptonian girl.
For Superman has 20 years of fight experience over Supergirl.
And, arguably, that many years of fight experience over virtually any version of Ultraman, too.
Jusus christ dude, Superman grew up in a world made out of paper, Supergirl didn't.
Superman is more careful with the use of his powers than Supergirl, it is in the comic!!!
I will actually love to take you to a BZ in this issue dude, to bad I am already engaged with Letters
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I am actually not. It was precisely to address opponents who WERE comparing Amazonians to kryptonians, though, that I decided to illustrate, that EVEN IN OUR REAL WORLD you have cases where women exceed bigger and more massive men in terms of physical strength. In point of fact, you even have teenaged girls who can do so, even if you compare their strength against say, a large-bodied fairly seasoned MMA fighter chosen at random.Exceptional cases, to be sure, but THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH.
The leg press example relates primarily to Supergirl, not Wonder Woman.
Specifically, it was a response to the following exchange, of which I only remembered Blue Area Vet's comment, and did not till now recall it was YOUR stance that Wonder Woman equated to a Kryptonian woman or Kryptonian girl till I checked out the page this appeared on:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=473829&pagenumber=83
😬
It was you who actually made the initial wrongful comparison between Amazons and Kryptonians, Salsa ...
Like I said Superman is a perfect engineered kryptonian who holds back more than a teenage kryptonian girl, what makes Supergirl a special kryptonian?
I mean IIRC Superman needed 5 kryptonians to restrain him under Rucka's pen
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elyou said you will respond to every single point brought to you
(which you haven't exactly)
Did I say anywhere that I would do that all in one day, in one post or even in order?
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elthat girl is not Supergirl and DELTA is not Superman, that girl is a human but Delta is not an engineered perfect human.
Supergirl and Superman during the time Loeb is writing this are from Birthright's Krypton. That has some very important implications.
To my knowledge, the origin story you are talking about, was something introduced by John Byrne and largely discarded by the time of Kara's re-introduction.
If you want to say differently, if you want to say Superman was engineered like in Byrne's day, you need to prove it.
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElSuperman is a perfect engineered kryptonian ...
Prove this to me. Prove to me that Superman is genetically engineered to be perfect and that Supergirl and Superman are NOT from a Birthright heavy-gravity style planet during the era in question.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Did I say anywhere that I would do that all in one day, in one post or even in order?Supergirl and Superman during the time Loeb is writing this are from Birthright's Krypton. That has some very important implications.
To my knowledge, the origin story you are talking about, was something introduced by John Byrne and largely discarded by the time of Kara's re-introduction.
If you want to say differently, if you want to say Superman was engineered like in Byrne's day, you need to prove it.
Prove this to me. Prove to me that Superman is genetically engineered to be perfect and that Supergirl and Superman are NOT from a Birthright heavy-gravity style planet during the era in question.
The genetical flaw introduced by the erradicator was explained in exile in space, which was not Byrne's origin. Kryptonians are genetically engineered but the genetical flaw introduced by the eradicator was never retconed, iirc
Jor El removed this genetical impurities or imperfections from Kal, Weather the flaw was show to be removed or not on birthright it does not really matter, because birthright did not affected the eradicaotr's origin
There is your answer, while the secret origin might have changed a bit, the whole history or wars on krypton and the actions of the Eradicator pretty much stayed the same.
Erradicator was not affected by birthright, You should do your home work better.
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElThe genetic flaw introduced by the Eradicator was explained in exile in space, which was not Byrne's origin. Kryptonians are genetically engineered but the genetic flaw introduced by the Eradicator was never retconned, iirc
Jor El removed [these] genetic impurities or imperfections from Kal; whether the flaw was show to be removed or not in Birthright it does not really matter, because Birthright did not affect the Eradicator's origin
There is your answer, while the secret origin might have changed a bit, the whole history or wars on Krypton and the actions of the Eradicator pretty much stayed the same.
Eradicator was not affected by Birthright, you should do your homework better.
It would only make sense to examine WHAT that genetic flaw WAS then, wouldn't it?
Here's what Wikipedia gives us:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" ... On Krypton, the Eradicator does all that it could over the years to protect Kryptonians, even from themselves. When a group of Kryptonian explorers leave Krypton in search of a new planet to colonize, the Eradicator alters their birthing matrices and makes them fatally allergic to lead, thus creating Daxamites.[citation needed] To further ensure that nobody left Krypton, the Eradicator alters Kryptonians by encoding in them a genetic defect so that they will instantly perish if they leave their world.
One of the surviving aliens, known as the Cleric, takes the Eradicator and leaves Krypton with a group of followers. Unfortunately, they die soon thereafter, as the Kryptonian genetic link to their home planet precludes their survival off-world ..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In other words, the genetic flaw is, if Kryptonians leave Krypton ... they die.
Salsa, think about that for a moment.
Do you not see a problem with your reasoning?
Originally posted by Delta1938On the "You're stronger," ya ever think it was just a did a more powerful blast of heat vision and Lucia lost confidence? Blackrock hosts have varied in power and Superman knows this, and is far more cautious than Kara. What if Superman just did a relatively weak bast to gauge Lucia? Of course Kara wouldn't have the same restraint as him even if she hadn't beaten him.
You offered to provide scans from various magazines.
I'd appreciate if you provided the relevant scenes now from Superman Volume 2 #218. The reason is I recall Superman giving EXTREME heat vision treatment to the previous possessor of the Blackrock, but could be mistaken (I don't think I am, but I could be), to the point where things nearby were suffering from the heat. Bear in mind the Blackrock is sentient with a type of memory, strange though that may sound. So the Blackrock would have THAT showing of vision to compare with the blast Supergirl gave its new possessor in Superman Volume 2 #223.
Unfortunately, the only image I have left in my collection of the SM 218 story is the following:
Originally posted by bluewaterriderSupergirl and Superman during the time Loeb is writing this are from Birthright's Krypton. That has some very important implications.
To my knowledge, the origin story you are talking about, was something introduced by John Byrne and largely discarded by the time of Kara's re-introduction.
If you want to say differently, if you want to say Superman was engineered like in Byrne's day, you need to prove it.
Prove this to me. Prove to me that Superman is genetically engineered to be perfect and that Supergirl and Superman are NOT from a Birthright heavy-gravity style planet during the era in question. [/B]
Salsa, if you've read my previous post, please take now a moment to examine the following from Mark Waid's Legion of SuperHeroes #23, Volume 5:
(aka Supergirl and the Legion of SuperHeroes #23, the title was renamed starting with issue 17 or thereabouts, but kept its numbering)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It would only make sense to examine WHAT that genetic flaw WAS then, wouldn't it?Here's what Wikipedia gives us:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" ... On Krypton, the Eradicator does all that it could over the years to protect Kryptonians, even from themselves. When a group of Kryptonian explorers leave Krypton in search of a new planet to colonize, the Eradicator alters their birthing matrices and makes them fatally allergic to lead, thus creating Daxamites.[citation needed] To further ensure that nobody left Krypton, the Eradicator alters Kryptonians by encoding in them a genetic defect so that they will instantly perish if they leave their world.One of the surviving aliens, known as the Cleric, takes the Eradicator and leaves Krypton with a group of followers. Unfortunately, they die soon thereafter, as the Kryptonian genetic link to their home planet precludes their survival off-world ..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------In other words, the genetic flaw is, if Kryptonians leave Krypton ... they die.
Salsa, think about that for a moment.
Do you not see a problem with your reasoning?
If you had a moment to consider, you realized that, unless the history had been retconned into Birthright's, Kara could not have survived removal from Krypton, and neither could any other Kryptonian.
Yet in the same aforementioned Legion of SuperHeroes #23, we see not only KARA running around on Rokyn, another planet but a city full of other kryptonians as well.
Note that Rokyn, like Birthright Krypton, is heavy gravity.
Note, in that previous post I just gave you, Kara is strong enough to move around normally, despite the increased gravity, and thus her greatly increased weight. Note that the Legionnaires must use their flight rings to allow for similar movement. They are not as strong as this girl, who, unlike her cousin, was RAISED on heavy-gravity Krypton, and thus effectively strength-trained to move around with all that weight.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It would only make sense to examine WHAT that genetic flaw WAS then, wouldn't it?Here's what Wikipedia gives us:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
" ... On Krypton, the Eradicator does all that it could over the years to protect Kryptonians, even from themselves. When a group of Kryptonian explorers leave Krypton in search of a new planet to colonize, the Eradicator alters their birthing matrices and makes them fatally allergic to lead, thus creating Daxamites.[citation needed] [b]To further ensure that nobody left Krypton, the Eradicator alters Kryptonians by encoding in them a genetic defect so that they will instantly perish if they leave their worldOne of the surviving aliens, known as the Cleric, takes the Eradicator and leaves Krypton with a group of followers. Unfortunately, they die soon thereafter, as the Kryptonian genetic link to their home planet precludes their survival off-world ..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------In other words, the genetic flaw is, if Kryptonians leave Krypton ... they die.
Salsa, think about that for a moment.
Do you not see a problem with your reasoning? [/B]
I am trying to see your point, but you missed the part where kryptonians are engineered to perfection with the exceptipn of the erredicators flaw.
So basically alll kryptonians are perfect kryptonians with kal el being the most perfect specimen in centuries as jor el and lara were perfectly dna compatible. There hasn't been a more perfect dna match in centuries and clark was the result of it.
Iirc the dna flaw was explained onto why the people of kandor did not died when removed from brainiac and I think it had to do with the creation of an environment that simulated krypton, therefore the dna flaw didn't trigger. And I think even brainiac removed it from his specimens. I will have to look into it.
In any case, the perfect dna match of jor el and lara had not been seen in centuries, meaning that not even when supergirl was born she was as perfect as clark.
So now you have the books telling you that clark is actually a more perfect specimen than kara and loeb telling you that Superman holds back more.
What other excuses are there?
Superman will rip WW open if he wanted too in under a minute, confirmed bu Rucka.
