Originally posted by h1a8
Try this logic.What percent of the time can a light speed beam be fired at WW where she manages to block it? More than 99% of the time? Sounds reasonable.
What about 2-4 beams fired at her? More than 70% of the time?Well if Superman throws a punch at WW then what percent of the time would WW block or evade it? More than 80% of the time? If so then she can counter with a stunning blow after blocking or evading Superman's attack and then lasso him.
If anyone disagrees with any of the percent ranges I gave then please give percent ranges for the things I listed.
Isn't there that feat where she blocks hundreds of lightspeed attacks at once from a shattered god or something?
IIRC it was a pretty old feat though.
Originally posted by Pillow BiterWe can know.
That's a great example of why fully realistic evaluations of fights just doesn't work. No way to know. Even if we could do the math and physics, we don't have information on the power levels and speed levels in that detail.
If Superman can consistently hit WW before she can react then he would be attacking her far faster than light speed.
I'm pretty sure that mental block Superman doesn't punch far faster than light speed. She should be able to react to his punches if she can casually block energy beams.
Originally posted by StoicPretty much. But the problem here is that Kal won't be going all out. Freeze breath would give him the cheesy win. Outside that, I don't see him getting out of the stun then lasso combo.
Diana could win if she went all out, and Kal actively held back. if both are going all out, Kal ends this very fast.
Originally posted by h1a8
Diana can get some wins with the lasso. She could stun him and lasso tie him while he's stunned.WW has ftl reflexes and arm movement speed. She could easily block or evade his attacks. She can counter his attack with a stunning blow.
Originally posted by krisblaze
Wonder Woman is too skilled.She wins 6/10.
ORLY?
Total cheap shot.
Attacks again before he gets up.
But what's that he does at the end? Grabs her foot and goes, "ENOUGH!" there? Well, what happens next?
Tosses her, gets up, blocks HER hit, then sends her flying with one punch, all while unsure why she's doing this, thinking maybe it's a test. Let's see how the rest of the fight goes.
Oh, that's it. That's the fight. She even says, "I knew I couldn't actually BEAT you in combat." So he shows to be well above her overall while she knew she couldn't win and he wasn't sure what was going on. They were fighting at normal speed? Her skill clearly isn't good enough to compensate for his strength advantage when he's pretty skilled himself. They were fighting at super speed? He has a significant speed advantage. Some combination of the two? Well, that doesn't help your argument either.
And H1, don't complain about she didn't use the lasso. The burden of proof is on you to prove she'd actually use it consistently like you argue, and this fight was her getting a cheap shot and a free kick in before he got up.....and put her in her place.
And this is one of their few fights that has them facing off and no extenuating circumstances, which are almost always hindering Superman.
Originally posted by h1a8Based on your logic, the fight I showed, at the very least their perceptions were at great speed, even if not their actual fighting. And yet, Superman was fine blocking her when he got serious and wasn't being cheap shot, she couldn't block his punch. Gonna try arguing PIS? If anything by your logic it's PIS that she can hit him without a cheap shot.
Try this logic.What percent of the time can a light speed beam be fired at WW where she manages to block it? More than 99% of the time? Sounds reasonable.
What about 2-4 beams fired at her? More than 70% of the time?Well if Superman throws a punch at WW then what percent of the time would WW block or evade it? More than 80% of the time? If so then she can counter with a stunning blow after blocking or evading Superman's attack and then lasso him.
If anyone disagrees with any of the percent ranges I gave then please give percent ranges for the things I listed.
Wally moves so fast she's frozen to him.
Later, when Wally is effected by a Starro virus, he's still much faster than Wonder Woman.
"Compared to normal mortals, I'm very, very fast. Compared to me, The Flash is an indistinct blur. How many times can he hit me like that in a night, millions? Hundreds of millions?"
Even if we take "Millions? Hundreds of millions?" as hyperbole, it's clear she's conceding she's nowhere near as fast as him.
I mean Hell, in the only comparative example like this I know of, Wonder Woman had to "cheat" by using Jesse Quick as a windbreak to keep up with her.
Superman on the other hand, was fast enough to not only hit Professor Zoom, but make him say, "Your speed rivals my own!!" even if he still said he's faster than Supes.
How fast is Professor Zoom? Well him fighting Max and Barry. Granted it's a bit odd because Barry thinks he's cut off, but every other Flash outside moves at super speed(Wally even enters The Speed Force). Here it is.
Originally posted by h1a8
We can know.If Superman can consistently hit WW before she can react then he would be attacking her far faster than light speed.
I'm pretty sure that mental block Superman doesn't punch far faster than light speed. She should be able to react to his punches if she can casually block energy beams.
I'm going by what the comics show, and backing my argument. You're going off your own fanfic. Comics>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your own fanfic.
Originally posted by h1a8
Pretty much. But the problem here is that Kal won't be going all out. Freeze breath would give him the cheesy win. Outside that, I don't see him getting out of the stun then lasso combo.
So, even if this mythical "stun then lasso combo" worked like you think, it's a cheesy win for him to use freeze breath but totally legit if she does thiat?
🙂 😄 😆 hysterical crylaugh
Based on Superman's best speed showings and Wonder Woman's, he'd theoretically be way faster than her and destroy her. But speed doesn't work that way in comics, so it doesn't matter.
Why keep trying to do your own math based on attempting to empirically evaluate feats? Let the writers do the math for you. Some writers have done so and come down on Diana's side. But more have come down on Superman's.
My favorite part of this thread is H1 pimping out the "stun then lasso combo FTW!!" argument despite a lack of evidence both that she uses it regularly AND would pull it off on Supes, but had the nerve to call freeze breath "a cheesy win."
This is worse than when I pulled that terrible, TERRIBLE, "Karate Kid says 'Hi-YAAAAHHHH!'" pun that H1 should have rightfully called me out on.
****, NOBODY called me out for that.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
SUPERMAN/WONDER WOMAN POST CRISIS FIGHTS------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 1 (Mock fight)
Action Comics #600 May 1988
Context: Wonder Woman and Superman deceive Darkseid into thinking they are fighting for real
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/WonderWoman/MockFight/story
[b]Winner: NONE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 2 & 3
KING OF THE WORLD ARC
ROUND 1
Action Comics #753 March/April 1999
Context: The JLA confronts a mad Superman (non 100% suncharged), Wonder Woman lassoes Superman's right arm and Superman tosses her like a rag doll, later on We see Superman confronting Wonder Woman again with the help of Batman and the rest of the JLA
Winner: SUPERMAN
ROUND 2
Superman Man of Tomorrow #13 March/April 1999
Context: A 100% suncharged and mad Sueperman battles the JLA and the Superman family. Wonder Woman can berely restrain Superman's right arm.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/MOT%2013/story
Winner: SUPERMAN
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 4
A league of One November 2000
Context: Wonder Woman lures most members of the JLA into a trap and defeats them INDIVIDUALLY, When it comes to facing Superman she sneak attacks him, surprised by the attack Superman ask if this is some kind of test, then proceds to easily handle her. Then she acknowledges that she cannot beat Superman in combat.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/WonderWoman/LeagueOfOne/story
Winner: SUPERMAN
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 5 (Mock fight)
Superman V.2 #165 December 2000
Context: Superman and Wonder Woman spar a little bit, when Superman focus he sends her flying away even though he lacked leverage
Winner: NONE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 6
Wonder Woman V.2 #175 December 2001
Context: A brutish mind controlled faces Diana, Wonder Woman is able to pull the win not after suffering injuries and having a bloody face, Superman is pretty much in good shape at the end of the fight. While in the fight Wonder Woman acknowledges that two more blows like that will kill her and that Superman is too strong.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/WonderWoman/WW175/story
Winner: WONDER WOMAN
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 7
JLA #77 March 2003
Context: Wonder Woman's & Firestorm's memories have been taken away by the Mnemon, they try to take Superman down, Superman defuses the Mnemon while scuffling with Wonder Woman and Firestorm at the same time
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/WonderWoman/JLA77/story
Winner: SUPERMAN
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 8
JLA #96 June 2004
Context: A mind controlled Superman fights Wonder Woman, Superman snaps briefly out of the mind control thanks to Superman not wanting to fight Diana and the help of Nudge, Diana knocks Superman briefly, which allows Diana to attack the Crucifier, A mind controlled Superman then knocks Wonder Woman which allows Crucifier to almost kill Wonder Woman. Superman was mind controlled and weakened by the Crucifier's magic.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/WonderWoman/10thCircle/story
Winner: TIE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 9
Superman v.2 #211 January 2005
Context: Superman fights what it seems a serious Wonder Woman, the demeanor on Superman's face is clear.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/WonderWoman/ForTomorrow/story
Winner: SUPERMAN
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 10 & 11
SACRIFICE ARC
ROUND 1
Adventures of Superman #642 September 2005
Context: A mind controlled Superman scuffles with Wonder Woman, fight is too brief, Superman gets away
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/WonderWoman/Sacrifice1/story
Winner: TIE
ROUND 2
Wonder Woman V.2 #219 September 2005
Context: A mind controlled Superman having hallucinations of fighting Doomsday faces Wonder Woman and in under two minutes Superman almost manages to kill Wonder Woman, but it has the "brilliant tactical idea" of tossing Wonder Woman/Doomsday back to earth to make Wonder Woman/ Doomsday suffer. After Wonder Woman wakes up from being KO'ed she manages to pull out the win, not with out suffering injuries. Superman also suffers injuries, but in the end Wonder Woman pulls the win.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/WonderWoman/Sacrifice2/story
Winner: WONDER WOMAN
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounter 12
Final Crisis #6 January 2009
Context: Superman KO's a mind controlled Wonder Woman with an attack that is not even directed at her.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/WonderWoman/HeatVisionOneShot/story
Winner: SUPERMAN
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 Canon encounters total
Canon encounters results
2 Victories for Wonder Woman (note: Superman under mind control)
2 Mock fights
2 Ties (note: Superman under mind control)
6 Victories for Superman (note: Wonder Woman under mind control in 1 fight and 1 fight with Superman 100% suncharged)
[/B]
Originally posted by Delta1938cheesy win means easy win. That's why Superman wins this fight. I was just arguing a fight where Superman doesn't use it. WW is not stupid. If her only way to beat Superman is to lasso him them she will try it.
My favorite part of this thread is H1 pimping out the "stun then lasso combo FTW!!" argument despite a lack of evidence both that she uses it regularly AND would pull it off on Supes, but had the nerve to call freeze breath "a cheesy win."This is worse than when I pulled that terrible, TERRIBLE, "Karate Kid says 'Hi-YAAAAHHHH!'" pun that H1 should have rightfully called me out on.
****, NOBODY called me out for that.
Superman isn't stupid either. If he feels freeze breath is the easiest and safest way to win then he does it. Unless he's fighting for fun (like Thor).
To be clear, freeze breath is cheesy win and stun to lasso isn't cheesy since Superman can just freeze her and not allow it.
