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Originally posted by OneDumbG0
By your own words, this was a "full on clark." Your only gripe is his blood-lusted anger. But his anger didn't cloud his judgment as much as you think it did.
i think it did (as well as whatever else lord was feeding him), so thats where we disagree...
and no, sacrifice is not what i personally would call a full on clark...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And just because he was angry, doesn't make it any less effective.
to be honest, i've believed since i saw my first martial arts movie at the age of what, 7 (might have been, not sure) that anger makes a person a less effective fighter... its something i've always believed, and i doubt its going to change anytime soon...
Originally posted by Raoul
to be honest, i've believed since i saw my first martial arts movie at the age of what, 7 (might have been, not sure) that anger makes a person a less effective fighter... its something i've always believed, and i doubt its going to change anytime soon...
That's a rather... puerile way of looking at things. 😛
Originally posted by batdude123
That's a rather... puerile way of looking at things. 😛
meh... someone like superman, with his vast array of powers and his intellect, could probably think of a dozen ways to take diana down, but if he's angry, he just reverts into the superman who tries to beat his enemy into submission... its the same superman that gets smacked around by mongul and grundy, etc...
does he hit her as hard as he can? sure... does he try to kill her by bringing her into the sun? of course...
honestly though, he's capable of a hell of alot more if he wants to put her in the ground...
Originally posted by RaoulSure, he's capable of many methods of winning a fight against Wonder Woman. But we're not arguing versatility and cleverness over effectiveness. You guys say that 'Sacrifice' did not depict a full-on Clark and was more akin to some widly swinging, blind, drunk Superman who forgets his many powers. But ask yourselves honestly... what's the most efficient, brutal, quick way for Superman to end a fight against a super-strong, fast, durable, flying foe? Give me one.
meh... someone like superman, with his vast array of powers and his intellect, could probably think of a dozen ways to take diana down, but if he's angry, he just reverts into the superman who tries to beat his enemy into submission... its the same superman that gets smacked around by mongul and grundy, etc...does he hit her as hard as he can? sure... does he try to kill her by bringing her into the sun? of course...
honestly though, he's capable of a hell of alot more if he wants to put her in the ground...
Because an immediate, no-nonsense, superspeed tackle into the sun while simultaneously using super-strength to choke and heat vision to burn would be at or near the top of my list. And that's exactly what happened in 'Sacrifice.' Angry or not. And a barely holding back Wonder Woman handled it admirably.
Superman 6/10.
She had prep and brought magical weapons + kryptonite in that fight. Superman was blind/dumb/deaf throughout the fight.
With that, she still barely stalemated him.
It's not unlike the end of "Gladiator" when Commudus drugs Maximus and then fights him. Sure, Maximus was bloodusted and going all out..but in his condition...was he anywhere near as effective as if he were fighting normally?
Nope.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sure, he's capable of many methods of winning a fight against Wonder Woman. But we're not arguing versatility and cleverness over effectiveness. You guys say that 'Sacrifice' did not depict a full-on Clark and was more akin to some widly swinging, blind, drunk Superman who forgets his many powers. But ask yourselves honestly... what's the most efficient, brutal, quick way for Superman to end a fight against a super-strong, fast, durable, flying foe? Give me one.Because an immediate, no-nonsense, superspeed tackle into the sun while simultaneously using super-strength to choke and heat vision to burn would be at or near the top of my list. And that's exactly what happened in 'Sacrifice.' Angry or not. And a barely holding back Wonder Woman handled it admirably.
Superman 6/10.
see, i think its just that we don't agree, and that's fine...
but for me, a top of his game Superman is akin to the one who took down the elite in Action 775:
and this was AFTER he'd just taken the equivalent of a stroke and a massive emp blast...
he's in complete control, he utilises several of his powers, and he doesn't even use lethal force, and he STILL takes down a powerful team.
Now, imagine what he could do if he DID want to kill them? if he did use all his strength and all of his abilities?
while it works for many characters, anger does not make superman a better fighter, imo. does he hit harder? sure. does he try to hurt you? definitely. but does he use his powers creatively to great effect? no, and he didnt during sacrifice, imo. diana's reflexes are as close to clark's as anyones, flying her to the sun isnt a smart move, its an angry one, and a rash one, given that he's still fully capable of matching (and exceeding, imo) her in battle on planet earth...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I cant argue with you here. I do think Superman is superior to WW but may have cause to rethink how much. Especially to coupled with the fact she was holding back and he was out to kill. The amp also makes it look very bad on Superman here. With the amp it should be lights out but it wasnt.
Sure, he's capable of many methods of winning a fight against Wonder Woman. But we're not arguing versatility and cleverness over effectiveness. You guys say that 'Sacrifice' did not depict a full-on Clark and was more akin to some widly swinging, blind, drunk Superman who forgets his many powers. But ask yourselves honestly... what's the most efficient, brutal, quick way for Superman to end a fight against a super-strong, fast, durable, flying foe? Give me one.Because an immediate, no-nonsense, superspeed tackle into the sun while simultaneously using super-strength to choke and heat vision to burn would be at or near the top of my list. And that's exactly what happened in 'Sacrifice.' Angry or not. And a barely holding back Wonder Woman handled it admirably.
Superman 6/10.
I have changed my mind. I agree that Supes wins but not 9 of 10 like I used to. Maybe 6 or 7. But he doesnt dominate her and it goes down to the wire every time. 👆
Originally posted by AvlonYou're the same guys that tell me kryptonite doesn't equal a substantial advantage over Superman much. And Wonder Woman had it out for what appeared to be a split second in 'Sacrifice.' If you tell me that it significantly poisoned him in that short time frame, then you'll have to eat those statements in future threads. Do yourself a favor, don't. Because even in the 'Last Son' storyline, Metallo mentions that kryptonite poisoning isn't instantaneous. As far as I have seen, it can have an immediate effect if the radiation is amplified and directed at Superman (kryptonite laser blast, etc.) or pierces his skin and enters his bloodstream as in Superman/Batman #44. Having a single piece and holding it out in front of him for a split second isn't going to do a whole lot. Even I know that.
She had prep and brought magical weapons + kryptonite in that fight. Superman was blind/dumb/deaf throughout the fight.With that, she still barely stalemated him.
It's not unlike the end of "Gladiator" when Commudus drugs Maximus and then fights him. Sure, Maximus was bloodusted and going all out..but in his condition...was he anywhere near as effective as if he were fighting normally?
Nope.
Wonder Woman had no extra magical weapons then she would normally possess in 'Sacrifice' either. She's always got her lasso and tiara. Superman was neither blind, deaf nor dumb in the fight. Even though he was seeing Doomsday, Maxwell Lord was able to program Superman's mind to such a degree that he avoided lasso throws even though Doomsday has no such weapon/attack. Despite Doomsday's inability to fly, he didn't just throw Doomsday into the sun, he held onto her to take her in directly which prevented her from escaping an orbit toss through her flight. He was fighting smart and calculated, despite being made to feel and see something else.
And why is this so hard to believe? Maxwell Lord's ability to control Superman to such a degree was amply demonstrated when Maxwell Lord pushed Superman to take out the JLA in the prior fight. Superman defeated a JLA team consisting of Flash, Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, Hawkman and John Stewart with reasoning, strategy and intelligence. He wasn't swinging wildly then.
Originally posted by RaoulThat fight is a sick fight. But only because Superman's a badass in it at the end. Otherwise, all I see is Superman allowing himself to get knocked silly by several foes before taking charge. You have your opinion, I have mine. Personally, a Superman who immediately heat visions, tackles, chokes, keeps heat visioning and goes straight for the sun without any witty banter or any hesitation is smarter, more efficient and more deadly.
see, i think its just that we don't agree, and that's fine...but for me, a top of his game Superman is akin to the one who took down the elite in Action 775:
and this was AFTER he'd just taken the equivalent of a stroke and a massive emp blast...
he's in complete control, he utilises several of his powers, and he doesn't even use lethal force, and he STILL takes down a powerful team.
Now, imagine what he could do if he DID want to kill them? if he did use all his strength and all of his abilities?
while it works for many characters, anger does not make superman a better fighter, imo. does he hit harder? sure. does he try to hurt you? definitely. but does he use his powers creatively to great effect? no, and he didnt during sacrifice, imo. diana's reflexes are as close to clark's as anyones, flying her to the sun isnt a smart move, its an angry one, and a rash one, given that he's still fully capable of matching (and exceeding, imo) her in battle on planet earth...
I also don't see why Superman would ever want to handicap himself by battling on the Earth, where Diana can commune with the Earth and do stuff like summon animals. He could and should be smart enough to negate all that and be at a significant advantage by taking the fight closer to the sun. Creativity and badass-ness are all fine and good. I just think Superman choosing to be smarter and more efficient is more akin to going "all-out" than showing off is. But like I said, you have your opinion, and I have mine.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're the same guys that tell me kryptonite doesn't equal a substantial advantage over Superman much. And Wonder Woman had it out for what appeared to be a split second in 'Sacrifice.' If you tell me that it significantly poisoned him in that short time frame, then you'll have to eat those statements in future threads. Do yourself a favor, don't. Because even in the 'Last Son' storyline, Metallo mentions that kryptonite poisoning isn't instantaneous. As far as I have seen, it can have an immediate effect if the radiation is amplified and directed at Superman (kryptonite laser blast, etc.) or pierces his skin and enters his bloodstream as in Superman/Batman #44. Having a single piece and holding it out in front of him for a split second isn't going to do a whole lot. Even I know that.
Bringing that knite simply says that she wasn't confident in her ability to fight him. She felt she needed the edge. Even though it was ineffective, it was prep on her part. No reason to assume that I said it did anything to actually affect him.
Even at the time she used it, it was because she had no other choice. Had he tossed her into the sun instead of punching her back to Earth..the battle would have ended right there.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wonder Woman had no extra magical weapons then she would normally possess in 'Sacrifice' either. She's always got her lasso and tiara. Superman was neither blind, deaf nor dumb in the fight. Even though he was seeing Doomsday, Maxwell Lord was able to program Superman's mind to such a degree that he avoided lasso throws even though Doomsday has no such weapon/attack. Despite Doomsday's inability to fly, he didn't just throw Doomsday into the sun, he held onto her to take her in directly which prevented her from escaping an orbit toss through her flight. He was fighting smart and calculated, despite being made to feel and see something else.And why is this so hard to believe? Maxwell Lord's ability to control Superman to such a degree was amply demonstrated when Maxwell Lord pushed Superman to take out the JLA in the prior fight. Superman defeated a JLA team consisting of Flash, Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, Hawkman and John Stewart with reasoning, strategy and intelligence. He wasn't swinging wildly then.
In the fight with the JLA, Supes knew who he was fighting vs when fighting WW a whole different scenario was generated. It's completely different, he thought the JLA was under mind control.
Originally posted by AvlonSo using a weakness against someone who is under mind control means you doubt your ability or does it mean you are using your head.
Bringing that knite simply says that she wasn't confident in her ability to fight him. She felt she needed the edge. Even though it was ineffective, it was prep on her part. No reason to assume that I said it did anything to actually affect him.Even at the time she used it, it was because she had no other choice. Had he tossed her into the sun instead of punching her back to Earth..the battle would have ended right there.
In the fight with the JLA, Supes knew who he was fighting vs when fighting WW a whole different scenario was generated. It's completely different, he thought the JLA was under mind control.
Superman sunamped himself. Thats gaining an edge if I am not mistaken. A huge edge one in which he still couldnt dominate a WW who was holding back.
Supes was still thinking clearly and using strategy though. I am sure if he thought it was Doomsday he would attack more ferociously than anyone because of their history together and the fact Superman knows Doomsday is a huge threat.
I will give credit where credit is due, but the simple fact is that WW barely managed to stalemate a savage/mindless Supes even in spite of some prep time. I've heard good arguments from both ends...and in my opinion she does put up a good fight. However if Supes is fighting to the max of abilites with all his senses in order....he's taking 8/10.
Originally posted by The Great GalenHe wasnt mindless as dumbgo just proved. He defeated the jla with strategy.
I will give credit where credit is due, but the simple fact is that WW barely managed to stalemate a savage/mindless Supes even in spite of some prep time. I've heard good arguments from both ends...and in my opinion she does put up a good fight. However if Supes is fighting to the max of abilites with all his senses in order....he's taking 8/10.
She puts up a great fight and he doesnt dominate her in the slightest. Even with a sunamp he couldnt beat down a WW who was holding back. The guy had a huge amp and she was holding back.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And you guys try to compare a Waverider-assisted, Motherbox-enhanced Superman's performance against H/P Doomsday as somehow being better than a Hercules/Wonder Girl assisted Wonder Woman's performance against a clone of H/P Doomsday. Superman won via time travel BFR. Wonder Woman won through plot device because Doomsday's durability was evolving so insanely quickly that he eventually covered himself in spikes that essentially killed him. Either way, while the fight was going on in both battles, they both got their butts handed to them terribly. Superman obviously had the better aid with Waverider and Wonder Woman herself didn't have any Mother Box enhancements.Superman 6/10.
What ... 🙁 you had no idea how powerful H/p Doomsday really is?
If you have superman doomsday companion limited edition comic that been released for action figure... the writer and illustrator is the same as h/p series ...first of all doomsday is freaking monster in that comic every blow that doomsday produce is more powerful than nuke and ever increasing to match Supes with MB..now about supes with MB,MB is enhancing superman abilities by 1 unit (all of his abilities)so in other word if supes abilities on 1-10 scale MB add 1 to that scale..on top of that MB protect supes with invisible aura beside supes biometrix aura of his. Against doomsday fist and bones that can evolve on fly(insane durability and immunity)..even supes with MB have no chances to defeat H/P doomsday..compare to doomsday that WW fought is like comparing spiderman with hulk.if only someone can scan that issue..many info about h/p doomsday and MB supes are in there.
Originally posted by quanchi112
He wasnt mindless as dumbgo just proved. He defeated the jla with strategy.She puts up a great fight and he doesnt dominate her in the slightest. Even with a sunamp he couldnt beat down a WW who was holding back. The guy had a huge amp and she was holding back.
A lot of the other guys already comfirmed why he would win the solid majority, theres nothing else to really add. If u and the other dudes wanna believe that its a 6/10 fight in favor of him then so be it. I personally believe Supes written to the fullest of his abilites without serving the interest of the plot would easily get 8-9/10 agaisnt her but hey thats just my call.
Originally posted by The Great Galenwonder woman written well would pull at least 4. you can't argue that she can take sun amped punches without dying. or that her lasso wins several fights.
A lot of the other guys already comfirmed why he would win the solid majority, theres nothing else to really add. If u and the other dudes wanna believe that its a 6/10 fight in favor of him then so be it. I personally believe Supes written to the fullest of his abilites without serving the interest of the plot would easily get 8-9/10 agaisnt her but hey thats just my call.
Originally posted by The Great GalenSupes was written pretty damn effective in that story. WW was holding back even though Supes sunamped himself and was out for the kill.
A lot of the other guys already comfirmed why he would win the solid majority, theres nothing else to really add. If u and the other dudes wanna believe that its a 6/10 fight in favor of him then so be it. I personally believe Supes written to the fullest of his abilites without serving the interest of the plot would easily get 8-9/10 agaisnt her but hey thats just my call.
Imagine if the fight were on equal ground,with no amp,and WW not holding back.
Originally posted by skygunner41I don't follow your quantifications at all. They appear to be quite arbitrary and overall pointless considering that either way, Wonder Woman hadd no such amp/enhancements. And when you add in the assistance of Waverider also? Superman was much better prepared during the fight and got his butt kicked equally as bad. The H/P Doomsday clone that Wonder Woman fought also evolved on the fly. He kept doubling and redoubling his strength and durability in that fight. If you want scans of the 'Hunter/Prey' fight, go to the Doomsday respect thread. If you want scans of the Wonder Woman fight, go to the Wonder Woman respect thread.
What ... 🙁 you had no idea how powerful H/p Doomsday really is?
If you have superman doomsday companion limited edition comic that been released for action figure... the writer and illustrator is the same as h/p series ...first of all doomsday is freaking monster in that comic every blow that doomsday produce is more powerful than nuke and ever increasing to match Supes with MB..now about supes with MB,MB is enhancing superman abilities by 1 unit (all of his abilities)so in other word if supes abilities on 1-10 scale MB add 1 to that scale..on top of that MB protect supes with invisible aura beside supes biometrix aura of his. Against doomsday fist and bones that can evolve on fly(insane durability and immunity)..even supes with MB have no chances to defeat H/P doomsday..compare to doomsday that WW fought is like comparing spiderman with hulk.if only someone can scan that issue..many info about h/p doomsday and MB supes are in there.
Originally posted by The Great GalenThe fight was supposed to be from Earth to Venus. They weren't supposed to actually make it to the sun's surface. But I can't find the interview where Greg Rucka clarified that, and to be honest, the artist's depiction is very contradictory. I know most people interpret it as going to the sun and who could blame them from the art. The Sun can only look so big in the background even from the distance of Venus...
She was Ko'ed though by a sun amped supes though, but hey ill be nice and make 7/10.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Personally, a Superman who immediately heat visions, tackles, chokes, keeps heat visioning and goes straight for the sun without any witty banter or any hesitation is smarter, more efficient and more deadly.
and that is where the problem lies with us agreeing lol...
Originally posted by quanchi112
Supes was written pretty damn effective in that story. WW was holding back even though Supes sunamped himself and was out for the kill.Imagine if the fight were on equal ground,with no amp,and WW not holding back.
😐
somewhere a small infant is crying, it can feel the tremors in the force caused by my anguish... 🙁