Originally posted by fangirl101I never even thought of that. But yeah. Basically. We're talking about a Superman who was bloodlusted to the extreme, having believed Doomsday just murdered Lois. He was using all his powers. Strength, speed, freeze breath, heat-vision. He even tried to go for the cheap win immediately by travelling towards the sun. This is exactly what a KMC forum Superman would do according to you DC fans. Wonder Woman held her own and Superman's magic weakness to sharp magical objects still stands.
yeah he would. she could simply just hold the tiara and strike him with it.
Originally posted by Starscream MSuperman's been cut several times by either her tiara or her sword on-panel. Even by simple flicks of her sword. Superman would get cut and it just depends on how Wonder Woman uses her weapons.
she might hit him with a glancing blow...but no chance does she cut Superman's throat
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I never even thought of that. But yeah. Basically. We're talking about a Superman who was bloodlusted to the extreme, having believed Doomsday just murdered Lois. He was using all his powers. Strength, speed, freeze breath, heat-vision. He even tried to go for the cheap win immediately by travelling towards the sun. This is exactly what a KMC forum Superman would do according to you DC fans.
actually, no, its not. kmc full on superman is fully aware, not acting out of anger or rage, but in complete control, he just isn't holding back. instead of hitting you in the face at half strength, he'll hit you at full strength, but it'll still be measured, not just wild swings and stupid fighting...
and superman wouldnt have to stop to use his hearing like that... ever.
is everyone forgetting that supes thought he was fighting doomsday? one can't blame him for not expecting doomsday to toss a tiara at him. if supes knew he was fighting wonder woman he would have fought her totally different, and would have been ready for a tiara toss. its like this: you're in a fight with a guy with a knife so you think you know what to expect, and then BAM! he shoots you with the damn knife. one couldn't blame you for being surprised correct?
in any event, sacrifice was a total pis fest, everyone knows that. also, there are scans in the superman respect thread of him easily blocking one of her attacks and then knocking her on her ass. she then admitts on panel that she knew she couldn't actually beat supes, but wanted to at least distract him. i'm too lazy to find the scan, but i'm sure there are plenty of people reading this thread who know what i'm talking about.
supes's feats overwhelm wondy's. deal with it. supes 8 or 9/10
Originally posted by RaoulI wouldn't consider 'Sacrifice' Superman as either fighting at half-strength, or wildly swinging or fighting stupidly. Superman has paused to use his super-senses in fights before and left himself vulnerable on-panel. When he was scanning Equus' DNA in Superman #207 with his microscopic vision, Equus punched him straight up. The fact that Mongul had to train him to use his freeze breath, speed, heat vision and strength at the same time lends credibility to the fact that Superman focusing on his super-senses during his fight might leave him open to foes. Especially foes like Wonder Woman who intimately understand Superman's capabilities and has excellent strategic prowess in melee combat.
actually, no, its not. kmc full on superman is fully aware, not acting out of anger or rage, but in complete control, he just isn't holding back. instead of hitting you in the face at half strength, he'll hit you at full strength, but it'll still be measured, not just wild swings and stupid fighting...and superman wouldnt have to stop to use his hearing like that... ever.
Originally posted by h1a8Ironically, he tried to do that in 'Sacrifice' and Wonder Woman managed to escape the freeze breath AFTER being engulfed in it and position herself behind Superman for her sneak attack.
Superman can simply freeze a block around her to momentarily slow her down then zip behind and then hv through her neck.
Originally posted by emporerpantsYeah well, Wonder Woman also tried to lasso him during the 'Sacrifice' fight and Superman evaded it in that same fight. Do you remember that? So Maxwell Lord's manipulation also involved Superman being able to fight Wonder Woman completely, despite the obvious difference between Doomsday's attacks and Wonder Woman's attacks.
is everyone forgetting that supes thought he was fighting doomsday? one can't blame him for not expecting doomsday to toss a tiara at him. if supes knew he was fighting wonder woman he would have fought her totally different, and would have been ready for a tiara toss. its like this: you're in a fight with a guy with a knife so you think you know what to expect, and then BAM! he shoots you with the damn knife. one couldn't blame you for being surprised correct?in any event, sacrifice was a total pis fest, everyone knows that. also, there are scans in the superman respect thread of him easily blocking one of her attacks and then knocking her on her ass. she then admitts on panel that she knew she couldn't actually beat supes, but wanted to at least distract him. i'm too lazy to find the scan, but i'm sure there are plenty of people reading this thread who know what i'm talking about.
supes's feats overwhelm wondy's. deal with it. supes 8 or 9/10
The most recent on-panel fights of Superman vs. Wonder Woman involve them throwing down on a nearly even keel. No way is this a 8-9/10 curbstomp that you all think it is. Despite Superman's overwhelming feat number advantage, I place more weight on their actual on-panel fights. And despite your opinions on how such encounters should pan out, she's handled herself pretty damn well enough to at least merit that this is certainly not a curbstomp.
Superman 6/10.
Superman's mental abilities have gotten an upgrade after IC.
Since the Superman that WW fought was more of a drunk/blind/remote controlled version of Superman, I have my reservations about that fight.
It did show her to have awesome blunt force durability though.
Against a Superman in his right mind though, she's toast. She usually wants to fight him when he doesn't want to fight her.
While Superman has beaten/stalemated Doomsday... DD has completely pwned Wonder Woman.
since when does supes need to pause and go into super hearing mode hmm? last time i checked he was ALWAYS in super hearing mode. as i said before with the sacrfice fight, it was full of pis and bs. poor writing all around. we really can't use much from it since it was such a crapfest. supes dodgine the lasso and getting hit by the tiara when he though he was fighting doomsday is just a load of poor writing. also, if you only want to go by on panel fights, then i guess spidey beating firelord counts and spidey should get at least 4 wins againts firelord right? i mean, they fought on panel and spidey WON! feats be damned!
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I wouldn't consider 'Sacrifice' Superman as either fighting at half-strength, or wildly swinging or fighting stupidly. Superman has paused to use his super-senses in fights before and left himself vulnerable on-panel. When he was scanning Equus' DNA in Superman #207 with his microscopic vision, Equus punched him straight up. The fact that Mongul had to train him to use his freeze breath, speed, heat vision and strength at the same time lends credibility to the fact that Superman focusing on his super-senses during his fight might leave him open to foes. Especially foes like Wonder Woman who intimately understand Superman's capabilities and has excellent strategic prowess in melee combat.
i was going to answer, but avlon summed it up perfectly imo...
Originally posted by Avlon
Superman's mental abilities have gotten an upgrade after IC.
Since the Superman that WW fought was more of a drunk/blind/remote controlled version of Superman, I have my reservations about that fight.It did show her to have awesome blunt force durability though.
Against a Superman in his right mind though, she's toast. She usually wants to fight him when he doesn't want to fight her.
While Superman has beaten/stalemated Doomsday... DD has completely pwned Wonder Woman.
Originally posted by RaoulReally?
i was going to answer, but avlon summed it up perfectly imo...
Originally posted by AvlonWell, we'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't characterize Maxwell Lord controlled-Superman as mind-numbingly comparable to a drunk/blind Superman. He used all his powers, strengths, super-senses and was ruthless during 'Sacrifice.' This thread doesn't even involve blood-lusted Superman and yet Wonder Woman showed herself capable of fighting a CIS-off, blood-lusted Superman in 'Sacrifice.'
Superman's mental abilities have gotten an upgrade after IC.
Since the Superman that WW fought was more of a drunk/blind/remote controlled version of Superman, I have my reservations about that fight.It did show her to have awesome blunt force durability though.
Against a Superman in his right mind though, she's toast. She usually wants to fight him when he doesn't want to fight her.
While Superman has beaten/stalemated Doomsday... DD has completely pwned Wonder Woman.
As far as I've read, Wonder Woman has had less reason to fight Superman in every single one of their physical encounters than Superman has. Either Superman is magically possessed by vampires (JLA #96) or possessed/amped by Circe (Wonder Woman #175), or Diana is simply trying to prevent Superman from committing suicide (Superman #211) or Supes is being mind-controlled by Maxwell Lord (Wonder Woman #219). By all means, let me know what battles you're referring to where Superman is the one supposedly holding back more than Wonder Woman. Because by on-panel admission, Wonder Woman was holding back during her 'Sacrifice' fight with a blood-lusted Superman. Not the other way around.
Yeah. A clone of Doomsday did own Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman #111. That was a clone which shared the evolutionary qualities of a H/P Doomsday that got stronger and stronger within the same battle and this fight occurred in 1996. Long time ago. Superman got his tuckus kicked by H/P Doomsday in 1994. Are we going to hold that against him?
Superman 6/10. Wonder Woman gets no credit here, even with all her on-panel battles with Superman. Seriously.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Really?Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't characterize Maxwell Lord controlled-Superman as mind-numbingly comparable to a drunk/blind Superman. He used all his powers, strengths, super-senses and was ruthless during 'Sacrifice.' This thread doesn't even involve blood-lusted Superman and yet Wonder Woman showed herself capable of fighting a CIS-off, blood-lusted Superman in 'Sacrifice.'As far as I've read, Wonder Woman has had less reason to fight Superman in every single one of their physical encounters than Superman has. Either Superman is magically possessed by vampires (JLA #96) or possessed/amped by Circe (Wonder Woman #175), or Diana is simply trying to prevent Superman from committing suicide (Superman #211) or Supes is being mind-controlled by Maxwell Lord (Wonder Woman #219). By all means, let me know what battles you're referring to where Superman is the one supposedly holding back more than Wonder Woman. Because by on-panel admission, Wonder Woman was holding back during her 'Sacrifice' fight with a blood-lusted Superman. Not the other way around.
Yeah. A clone of Doomsday did own Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman #111. That was a clone which shared the evolutionary qualities of a H/P Doomsday that got stronger and stronger within the same battle and this fight occurred in 1996. Long time ago. Superman got his tuckus kicked by H/P Doomsday in 1994. Are we going to hold that against him?
Superman 6/10. Wonder Woman gets no credit here, even with all her on-panel battles with Superman. Seriously.
I commend your knowledge on WW. I'll start off with that.
Now, the DD that I meant was the Brainiac/Doomsday hybrid who easily owned her. In 1994, Superman and DD stalemated. Thanks for that instance that you brought up as well. We can also bring up her poor performance against DS or his subservants, or even that he had to give her all in full battle gear just to stalemate an Imperiex probe. The same things that Superman "going all out" and in his right mind was destroying back to back with DD at his side. If I remember correctly, she was pwned by "Z"...a guy who Superman beat with his voice.
WW said she was "barely" holding back, but then again, Clark was on remote control. Drug up the worlds best fighter to the point where he's seeing illusions, and I highly doubt anyone would think he's fighting at his best. Even if he's breaking things when he hits them.
In For Tomorrow Superman did not want to fight her. She came after him. In Sacrifice, she straight admitted that he's more powerful than her. She had to bring kryptonite to the fight.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that she can't win. He's just better all around than she is and thus takes a sizable majority.
We also have showings like this:
Originally posted by Rorschach
Wonder Woman admits she can't beat Superman in combat
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanstrongest.jpg
Yeah. A clone of Doomsday did own Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman #111. That was a clone which shared the evolutionary qualities of a H/P Doomsday that got stronger and stronger within the same battle and this fight occurred in 1996. Long time ago. Superman got his tuckus kicked by H/P Doomsday in 1994. Are we going to hold that against him?
Superman 6/10. Wonder Woman gets no credit here, even with all her on-panel battles with Superman. Seriously. [/B][/QUOTE]
you tried to compare H/P doomsday to that clone in WW #111... 🙁
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Really?Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't characterize Maxwell Lord controlled-Superman as mind-numbingly comparable to a drunk/blind Superman. He used all his powers, strengths, super-senses and was ruthless during 'Sacrifice.' This thread doesn't even involve blood-lusted Superman and yet Wonder Woman showed herself capable of fighting a CIS-off, blood-lusted Superman in 'Sacrifice.'
the sacrifice fight, to me, is one of the most widley misunderstood fights on kmc... i'm not speaking of you personally, i'm just talking about the way its perceived that the superman that fought diana was a full-on superman...
in sacrifice, he was under lord's control, amnd he'd just been through a traumatic experience, and he's lost control... yes, he was using most of his powers, but it was how he was using them... he wasnt using them smartly, he was using them wildly...
remember how he took down manchester black's elite? a full on clark is one who wants you dead, one who won't hold back, but one who will put you in the ground in as little time as possible... he wont get angry, he wont lash out, like he did in sacrifice... was he pissed against diana? sure, was he using all his powers? yes, smartly? no, which to me is the big difference...
and what avlon said, i just don't want to repeat him lol... 😛
Let's see who has wonder woman fought that gives her some credit for being able to take at least 4 from superman?
Etrigan. She beat him. Hasn't etrigan giving superman a hard time? Etrigan is so powerful that a solar system destroying blast from the omniversal ALE creature only knocked him out.
A couple of white martians. She knocked one White martian out in one punch I think. She also beat the other white martian in space handily. Now this may not seem like a feat, but superman beat one white martian who was invisible and I think trying to escape flames. he didnt' do so good against protext until he drilled himself into the planet core where there were flames. flash knocked a white martian out with an imp.
So that is showing that physically, wonder woman is clearly hanging with the top dogs in punching force.
She's knocked out the indestructible captain atom in one punch.
She's stalemated captain marvel, before her upgrade. granted i think he was mind controlled. so that makes it more even since she wasn't upgraded yet.
she's beaten scored of virtually indestructible angels ( off panel)
Not to mention all the mythological beast and gods and demons she's tussled with.
Originally posted by skygunner41And you guys try to compare a Waverider-assisted, Motherbox-enhanced Superman's performance against H/P Doomsday as somehow being better than a Hercules/Wonder Girl assisted Wonder Woman's performance against a clone of H/P Doomsday. Superman won via time travel BFR. Wonder Woman won through plot device because Doomsday's durability was evolving so insanely quickly that he eventually covered himself in spikes that essentially killed him. Either way, while the fight was going on in both battles, they both got their butts handed to them terribly. Superman obviously had the better aid with Waverider and Wonder Woman herself didn't have any Mother Box enhancements.
you tried to compare H/P doomsday to that clone in WW #111... 🙁
Originally posted by RaoulIn 'Sacrifice,' Superman wanted Wonder Woman dead, didn't hold back anything and tried to put her into the ground as quickly as possible by taking her into the sun from the very start of the fight with his superspeed while strangling her with his super-strength and burning her with heat vision. By your own words, this was a "full on clark." Your only gripe is his blood-lusted anger. But his anger didn't cloud his judgment as much as you think it did. This is abundantly clear, because he chose the quickest and most devastating way to end a fight as fast as possible. Just because it was neither clever nor complicated, doesn't negate it's all-out nature. And just because he was angry, doesn't make it any less effective.
remember how he took down manchester black's elite? a full on clark is one who wants you dead, one who won't hold back, but one who will put you in the ground in as little time as possible... he wont get angry, he wont lash out, like he did in sacrifice... was he pissed against diana? sure, was he using all his powers? yes, smartly? no, which to me is the big difference...and what avlon said, i just don't want to repeat him lol... 😛
Originally posted by fangirl101Why make the inquiry harder? Because she's got plenty of fights against Superman himself in comics to prove she can fight him.
Let's see who has wonder woman fought that gives her some credit for being able to take at least 4 from superman?
Originally posted by batdude123Why don't you go off and completely misread/lie about some Green Lantern feat in some GL thread, k?
haermm @ this thread.
Superman 6/10.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
By your own words, this was a "full on clark." Your only gripe is his blood-lusted anger. But his anger didn't cloud his judgment as much as you think it did.
i think it did (as well as whatever else lord was feeding him), so thats where we disagree...
and no, sacrifice is not what i personally would call a full on clark...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And just because he was angry, doesn't make it any less effective.
to be honest, i've believed since i saw my first martial arts movie at the age of what, 7 (might have been, not sure) that anger makes a person a less effective fighter... its something i've always believed, and i doubt its going to change anytime soon...
