Superman vs. Wonder Woman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The writer of Wonder Woman #611 disagrees with you.

WARNING: Graphic and rather violent showing. Get parent's permission before clicking and viewing these images if you are under 13.

😬

But context is beyond you as always.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You don't seem to be as much in the habit of sending text walls as you used to be, as a result your posts are more concise and easier to respond to.
I'll give a few responses to some of these items; later, if and when I have the time, I'll marry them to scans and images.

1) Memories are not particularly trustworthy in comics. Other stories show that Superman actually has quite an ego and does not like to admit when things are going hard for him. Good example is Busiek's Trinity series where he wants to take on Konvickt and makeup for the knockout the monster scored on him.

If you want to take his memories firm, though, how come you're ignoring the part where he says "I couldn't even save myself!" when he find his throat slashed open by the tiara? I've not yet seen a Superman fan emphasize THAT part ...

2) People assume that Superman was amped because it does not make much sense to assume he was NOT amped. That's especially true if you'd read the stories about 2 years before, during, and after this period (the year 2005), especially regarding his cousin, introduced at roughly this time.

Are we really to assume Greg Rucka knew so little about Superman that he forgot THAT basic element of the character and how his powers work?
I honestly would not assume a comic writer would feel great need to point that out. To be fair though, before resuming readership of DC comics with the re-intro of Kara, I'd been in the habit of reading the Marvel Comics of previous years, including old 1980s Spider-Man and X-Men stories.

A bit more subtle, these. Not everything spelled out for the reader.
In fact, there were at least one or two storylines I remember where the books were drafted as serial mysteries where the audience would write in and guess what was really going on and what would happen next. "Who is the Hobgoblin?" and "The Mystery of Jean DeWolf" come to mind.

On the other hand, even in many of the DC comics around this period changes were quiet, though dramatic, and unannounced. I believe I pointed one such change out to you much earlier that is relevant to this thread, and that being the increasing durability of Wonder Woman relative to earlier years.
Another good change example would be her increasing skill and reputation as a warrior in comicdom, something nearly absent from the Perez and John Byrne days, at least from what I can tell.

3) "Real world" considerations have to be balanced with how well comic writers are AWARE of real world consideration and to what extent they are skilled at portraying them, given the needs of the story they want to tell.

To return to the "sun-amp" thing, for instance, you yourself earlier posted Superman taking on Mongul, even as he alluded to Muhammad Ali's "rope a dope". Prominent in that showing is Superman saying to Mongul that THE TROPICAL SUN AT THAT LATITUDE continually recharged him, giving him far greater stamina ...

😕 You say I've written "walls of text" before, but then essentially do one, including unrelated stuff, to reply to little more than a paragraph of what I wrote?

In canon, he stated he wanted to make Doomsday suffer. Emphasized it even. Wanting to make Doomsday suffer doesn't really contradict Rucka's interview. And I don't see what "ego" has to do with anything. Also, did you not read everything I wrote? I did indeed reply to the "I couldn't save myself" bit. If you don't have the time(or will) to read everything I write, at least acknowledge you haven't when you reply to specific parts of what I wrote and not the rest.

So the Sun acts funny if we do assume they're right by it(actually your "insects" comparison supports they weren't very close to the Sun), no melting of the lead box, no statement of an amp, and the writer allegedly states that they never got past Venus in his script. If there was only one thing, maybe two, you could dismiss it. But all together? Not so much.

Yeah, I know that writers aren't always aware of real world stuff. But arguing that her unable to break his grip with technique is irrelevant or argue Hercules busting Superman's nose open with an elbow to the face is exactly the same as being punched in a harder area than the nose is pretty much the same as arguing a kick is no more powerful than a punch.

You don't want to bring that up, Blue. Or you'll wish you hadn't. I'll post something that won't help your argument one bit. Sure you wanna continue?

Originally posted by abhilegend
An "amped" Wonder Woman killing Superman in a vision? For those who don't know, Diana was empowered beyond her normal power levels by three goddesses in that vision. Superman killed WW, Captain Marvel, Hal Jordan, Supergirl, Flash and Booster Gold as told by Kismet when he simply stopped holding back. He also did that under the influence of Spear of Destiny.

😬

But context is beyond you as always.

I already knew it was a "vision" but she's amped as well as having that sword? Yesh.

Originally posted by Delta1938

😕 You say I've written "walls of text" before, but then essentially do one,
including unrelated stuff, to reply to little more than a paragraph of what I wrote?

Yep.

See now why I'm so glad you don't text wall much anymore? 😛

I must admit, you're even giving me pause to think I might separate my current post into two or three posts now for visual ease of reading.

I may ignore that thought from now on, but you DID give me pause to think it ...

Originally posted by Delta1938

In canon, he stated he wanted to make Doomsday suffer. Emphasized it even. Wanting to make Doomsday suffer doesn't really contradict Rucka's interview. And I don't see what "ego" has to do with anything. Also, did you not read everything I wrote? I did indeed reply to the "I couldn't save myself" bit. If you don't have the time(or will) to read everything I write, at least acknowledge you haven't when you reply to specific parts of what I wrote and not the rest.

Apologies.

There was and is no lack of will on my part to read what an earnest poster has to say.

It is rather that your responses came or were discovered JUST as I had finished COMPLETING my text wall to you.

It's not like I have a time table telling me when you'll post, and, with all due respect, I wasn't about to try to erase all that.

Originally posted by Delta1938

So the Sun acts funny if we do assume they're right by it(actually your "insects" comparison supports they weren't very close to the Sun), no melting of the lead box, no statement of an amp, and the writer allegedly states that they never got past Venus in his script. If there was only one thing, maybe two, you could dismiss it. But all together? Not so much.

Flip side:

Diana tells us he's taking her to the sun with the intention of throwing her in it,

your memory issue has Superman alluding to that as his goal himself,

the artwork of the main fight magazine features something like six panels of flaming background,

and, in the issues that immediately follow this issue,

Wondy endures a bath in MOLTEN METAL and the heat of what seems to be a nuclear furnace
and tells us that this is bad, but that's she's experienced far WORSE recently.

Originally posted by Delta1938

the writer allegedly states that they never got past Venus in his script.

Let me rid you of the idea that things would be far better if they WERE "only" as far as Venus. Have you any idea what Kryptonians have proven capable of with as much solar mass in the background as Sacrifice shows us?

I have. Refer to Brave and the Bold v3 #6, and watch Superman's cousin get what looks like a fourth of her torso drilled straight through by a kryptonite lance.
Lantern comments she'd be dead under one sun. Fortunately, she's in the Rann system, receiving three times the dose of light she normally does. She stabilizes from a football-sized hole through her chest because of it.

All those suns combined, though, don't take up as much space per panel as what we're shown here:

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/656770main_7343749816_3455fc5553_o_full.jpg

That's the view from Venus.
Or at least a real-life NASA photo suggesting what that view IS like.
That small black disc? That's Venus.
You're suggesting they had "only" the orbital proximity of a planet where the sun looks like it does in that picture.

Really think arguing THAT would have no effect on Superman's power, and that such is going to convince anyone who has even a general knowledge of how K-power works?

Originally posted by Delta1938

I already knew it was a "vision" but she's amped as well as having that sword? Yesh.

1) Diana's tiara cuts just as well as that sword blade.

2) I was not offering that as a depiction of Diana at norm, who isn't in the habit of running people through.

(Or at least she wasn't. Till about 2 years ago ... )

It does provide an example of DC showing us Superman in his right mind being taken down by a deadly serious Wonder Woman, though, no matter how many qualifications you choose to add to that statement.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Yeah, I know that writers aren't always aware of real world stuff. But arguing that her unable to break his grip with technique is irrelevant or argue Hercules busting Superman's nose open with an elbow to the face is exactly the same as being punched in a harder area than the nose is pretty much the same as arguing a kick is no more powerful than a punch.

You don't want to bring that up, Blue. Or you'll wish you hadn't. I'll post something that won't help your argument one bit. Sure you wanna continue?

😬 We're on page 91 and you can ask that?

Seriously?

What, do you think I'm worried about long engagements?

If I can't cover things with you this week, well, that's what they invented next week for.

Make sure you can support the idea that the DC writers who produce these Superman/Wonder Woman fights have good reason to know what you're talking about, though.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yep.

See now why I'm so glad [b]you don't text wall much anymore? 😛

I must admit, you're even giving me pause to think I might separate my current post into two or three posts now for visual ease of reading.

I may ignore that thought from now on, but you DID give me pause to think it ...[/B]

I was saying it's a "wall of text" RELATIVE to what I wrote.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Apologies.

There was and is no lack of will on my part to read what an earnest poster has to say.

It is rather that your responses came or were discovered JUST as I had finished COMPLETING my text wall to you.

It's not like I have a time table telling me when you'll post, and, with all due respect, I wasn't about to try to erase all that.

Fair enough. I was replying to everybody I planned on replying to BUT you in that first post, and made a dedicated post(well, two) JUUUUUST for you. Don't you feel special?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Flip side:

Diana [b]tells us he's taking her to the sun with the intention of throwing her in it,

your memory issue has Superman alluding to that as his goal himself,

the artwork of the main fight magazine features something like six panels of flaming background,

and, in the issues that immediately follow this issue,

Wondy endures a bath in MOLTEN METAL and the heat of what seems to be a nuclear furnace
and tells us that this is bad, but that's she's experienced far WORSE recently. [/B]

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Let me rid you of the idea that things would be far better if they WERE "only" as far as Venus. Have you any idea what Kryptonians have proven capable of with as much solar mass in the background as Sacrifice shows us?

I have. Refer to Brave and the Bold v3 #6, and watch Superman's cousin get what looks like a fourth of her torso drilled straight through by a kryptonite lance.
Lantern comments she'd be dead under one sun. Fortunately, she's in the Rann system, receiving three times the dose of light she normally does. She stabilizes from a football-sized hole through her chest because of it.

All those suns combined, though, don't take up as much space per panel as what we're shown here:

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/656770main_7343749816_3455fc5553_o_full.jpg

That's the view from Venus.
Or at least a real-life NASA photo suggesting what that view IS like.
That small black disc? That's Venus.
You're suggesting they had "only" the orbital proximity of a planet where the sun looks like it does in that picture.

Really think arguing THAT would have no effect on Superman's power, and that such is going to convince anyone who has even a general knowledge of how K-power works?

😬 We're on page [b]91 and you can ask that?

Seriously?

What, do you think I'm worried about long engagements?

If I can't cover things with you this week, well, that's what they invented next week for.

Make sure you can support the idea that the DC writers who produce these Superman/Wonder Woman fights have good reason to know what you're talking about, though. [/B]

The way you're arguing, Superman should've been beyond normal going into the Sun after being significantly drained by Parasite.

"OUCH! Obviously I'm not at maximum strength yet!! Got to keep my distance until I'm fully powered up!"

In that fight, they actually WERE near the Sun, and Superman hung around it longer than he was in space in the SACRIFICE fight(unless you think Superman spent most of the off-panel time hanging-around the spot he punched WW until we see him again) and it actually specifies when he's more powerful than normal. That's what I meant by asking if you really wanted to do it. That fight contradicts what you're arguing.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

1) Diana's tiara cuts just as well as that sword blade.

2) I was not offering that as a depiction of Diana at norm, who isn't in the habit of running people through.

(Or at least she wasn't. Till about 2 years ago ... )

It does provide an example of DC showing us Superman in his right mind being taken down by a deadly serious Wonder Woman, though, no matter how many qualifications you choose to add to that statement.

Now it looks like you're justifying being caught with your pants down. You didn't even MENTION there were extenuating circumstances, even if you just wanted to show an example.

I'll end this argument about the Sun once and for all.

Apparent size of spherical object = 2arctan (R/D)
where R is the radius of the spherical object and D is the distance the observer is away from the spherical object.

The radius of the Sun = 432,164 miles
The distance from Venus to the Sun = 67,240,000 miles.

So the apparent size of the Sun from the perspective around Venus is
2arctan (432,164/67,240,000) = .02385 miles or 68 ft.

The Sun's apparent diameter in the comic was between 15-20 times Superman's height. Which means the Sun appeared on panel to be between 90 and 300 feet across (Superman is about 6ft). So either Superman and WW was just a little bit closer than Venus or it was the artist error.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'll end this argument about the Sun once and for all.

Apparent size of spherical object = 2arctan (R/D)
where R is the radius of the spherical object and D is the distance the observer is away from the spherical object.

The radius of the Sun = 432,164 miles
The distance from Venus to the Sun = 67,240,000 miles.

So the apparent size of the Sun from the perspective around Venus is
2arctan (432,164/67,240,000) = .02385 miles or 68 ft.

The Sun's apparent diameter in the comic was between 15-20 times Superman's height. Which means the Sun appeared on panel to be between 90 and 300 feet across (Superman is about 6ft). So either Superman and WW was just a little bit closer than Venus or it was the artist error.

If the writer's script said that they never got past Venus, wouldn't that make it an artist's error?

Originally posted by Delta1938
If the writer's script said that they never got past Venus, wouldn't that make it an artist's error?

Originally posted by h1a8
IMO I would say yes. That's why I said it could be artist's error. But in reality, the error was not very big from my calculations.

So, you're saying the artist wasn't as much making an error(going off the script) as much he just got the image wrong?

Originally posted by Delta1938
So, you're saying the artist wasn't as much making an error(going off the script) as much he just got the image wrong?

I don't understand your question.
I am saying, if the script was that they never got past Venus and yet the artist drew them past Venus then it is the artist's error.
I'm just saying that the error wasn't a very big one. If the artist had drawn the Sun a little smaller then the art would not have disagreed with the script at all.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't understand your question.
I am saying, if the script was that they never got past Venus and yet the artist drew them past Venus then it is the artist's error.
I'm just saying that the error wasn't a very big one. If the artist had drawn the Sun a little smaller then the art would have not disagreed with the script at all.

What I mean by "artist error" is the artist intentionally not following the script, and having them near the Sun. I'm separating "getting the image wrong" for lack of a better term because if he was following the script, intending it to be near but not past Venus would be hard to do with perfect proportions if he wanted to show them going towards the Sun.

Originally posted by Delta1938

You didn't even MENTION there were extenuating circumstances, even if you just wanted to show an example.

😬

A post-apocalyptic setting with Wonder Woman dressed in a green outfit with three scorpion tails for hair skewering Superman with what looks like the Sword of Skeletor doesn't tell you something is amiss here?

Also, why would I bother giving the issue number if I wanted to pull a fast one on somebody?

Thirdly, given that I know this topic is one of the most widely debated on comicbook internet boards, what makes you think I believed it would go unchallenged even it were irrelevant to the main debate?

I'm not overly worried about anyone challenging my posts, Delta.
I'm willing to explore nearly any discussion they'll predictably evoke.

Originally posted by Delta1938

The way you're arguing, Superman should've been beyond normal going into the Sun after being significantly drained by Parasite.

"OUCH! Obviously I'm not at maximum strength yet!! Got to keep my distance until I'm fully powered up!"

In that fight, they actually WERE near the Sun, and Superman hung around it longer than he was in space in the SACRIFICE fight(unless you think Superman spent most of the off-panel time hanging-around the spot he punched WW until we see him again) and it actually specifies when he's more powerful than normal. That's what I meant by asking if you really wanted to do it. That fight contradicts what you're arguing.

Superman started off as a dessicated husk seconds away from dying, internally bleeding, and more corpse-like than we see DCnU Supes appear after Apollo-empowered Zod and Ursula are done with him and you think this is a good counter because it takes him longer to get to the level he was at in Sacrifice, starting there from perfect health?

Add to that the fact that showing is from a decade earlier than Sacrifice, when both Superman and Wonder Woman were often portrayed at lower levels of power and metahuman blessing than now or when Rucka was writing them:

http://www.comicvine.com/superman-the-man-of-steel-50-the-trial-of-superman/4000-41693/

Delta ... you've got better. Make your next entries more worthy of our time, please.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😬

A post-apocalyptic setting with Wonder Woman dressed in a green outfit with three scorpion tails for hair skewering Superman with what looks like the Sword of Skeletor doesn't tell you something is amiss here?

Also, why would I bother giving the issue number if I wanted to pull a fast one on somebody?

Thirdly, given that I know this topic is one of the most widely debated on comicbook internet boards, what makes you think I believed it would go unchallenged even it were irrelevant to the main debate?

I'm not overly worried about anyone challenging my posts, Delta.
I'm willing to explore nearly any discussion they'll predictably evoke.

Superman started off as a dessicated husk seconds away from dying, internally bleeding, and more corpse-like than we see DCnU Supes appear after Apollo-empowered Zod and Ursula are done with him and you think this is a good counter because it takes him longer to get to the level he was at in Sacrifice, starting [b]there from perfect health?

Add to that the fact that showing is from a decade earlier than Sacrifice, when both Superman and Wonder Woman were often portrayed at lower levels of power and metahuman blessing than now or when Rucka was writing them:

http://www.comicvine.com/superman-the-man-of-steel-50-the-trial-of-superman/4000-41693/

Delta ... you've got better. Make your next entries more worthy of our time, please. [/B]

Doesn't matter. You should've mentioned she was amped.

I mentioned Superman was severely drained. The way you've been arguing how he'll be Sun-Amped, he should've bee beyond normal as soon as he left the Sun. He was legitimately near the Sun there, as confirmed in the fight, for a longer period of time than he was in space in the SACRIFICE fight.

And who cares about levels or portrayals or whatnot? This is a legit example of him being near the Sun and it taking some time for him to be amped. Any example of Superman being sun-amped under Rucka?

Thats exactky what I was thinking, if there are any examples of amped superman under Rucka, but since I lost my dc collection 🙁

Anyway (later I will respond properly) is there any fights where wonder woman has actually defeated superman WITHOUT extenuating circumstances?

Originally posted by Delta1938

Any example of Superman being sun-amped under Rucka?

mmm Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2.

You should check it out some time.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mmm Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2.

You should check it out some time.

Nah!

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I lost my dc collection

😕

How did THAT happen?

You had the largest and best Superman collection that I KNOW of on these boards.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mmm Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2.

You should check it out some time.

And JLofA V2 #24 has an example of Wonder Woman handling Amazo that's similar to how Superman grabbed her by the throat and dragged her off into space?

Originally posted by Delta1938

First, what did Superman do to Wonder Woman? He grabbed her by the throat and dragged her into space.

She tried and tried and tried to break his grip with strength and technique and failed. What did Wonder Woman do to Amazo? Fly down and slams into him with her fists. In fact her narration specifically states she builds-up speed and catches him by surprise, and she drives him through all that before he can get his bearings, so he's not resisting her(when she was most certainly resisting Superman).

That's about as similar as pizza and an ant hill. To call them similar is only correct in the most superficial sense, and is either a poor interpretation of the comics or flat-out dishonesty to argue. But look at end of the last scan. You claim she begins shoving him "strength test style." But he's ALREADY on the ground so at a serious leverage disadvantage. And he's still overpowering her rather easily. Then Batman tries to come to the rescue. What happens?

He gets sent flying while Amazo restrains her with ONE HAND around her throat. That's much more like what Superman did to Wonder Woman(although one-handed makes it more impressive). Is she able to break Amazo's grip?

Well, not in what happened before Zatanna came to the rescue. So no, Blue, this is not at all what you tried to argue.

er Guess not.

Originally posted by Delta1938
What I mean by "artist error" is the artist intentionally not following the script, and having them near the Sun. I'm separating "getting the image wrong" for lack of a better term because if he was following the script, intending it to be near but not past Venus would be hard to do with perfect proportions if he wanted to show them going towards the Sun.

With that said,
We take the art as fact UNLESS it is contradicted by the script. Meaning, if the script doesn't contradict the art then the art counts 100%.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😕

How did THAT happen?

You had the largest and best Superman collection that I KNOW of on these boards.

Hard drive crashed. You might think that I will keep a back up since is in my line of work, but I just got over confident thinking that I could fix the hard drive.

But fixing hard drives? uh uh time consuming if the heads are damaged. I still have them on the hard drive but I can't read the files, maybe one day I will decide to fix it