Superman vs. Wonder Woman

Originally posted by Zack Fair

You're actually illustrating why it's a good idea to have a thread where things like this can be discussed. Your showing here, for instance, is taken from a story called "The 10th Circle", one of John Byrne's JLA arcs.

I seriously wonder how many people wrongly think Superman actually knocked Diana out in this encounter and precisely the way you're showing us.

In point of fact, that is only the opening blow of a skirmish between these two (Superman is being controlled by a vampire named "Crucifer" here), and she goes on to fight not only Superman, but several demon-like helpers and the main villain as well. She falls to Crucifer, of course, but acquits herself quite well against Superman himself, not at all what people would think if they're exposed only to that image and nothing else.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😬

Really? You respond to a lot of things you don't care about?

Not really but it was together with another response to him. If He believes me or not that Delta did not PM me, is something that is not my problem but his, he did not anyway and is inconsequential for this debate

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Indeed.
He might be better served to issue his challenges via private messaging.
I'll be surprised if Pr doesn't say something to him if he keeps posting the way he's been going on for the last two pages or so.

I believe that if you believe something so hard that you have been debating for 86 pages, you should have the conviction to take it to a BZ so that way there is a closure to it, so I don't think there is anything wrong with issuing a BZ to someone who debates for 86 pages, I mean there has to be some conviction for it right? Unless there are ulterior motives for posting on 86 pages, maybe trolling?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The reverse was shown as well. In fact, if we're going by Sacrifice, Wonder Woman can kill Superman even faster, even after being punched millions of miles away, choked, burned, frozen, down to the use of one strong hand, and with scarcely more than a flick of her wrist.

Assuming she's wearing her standard outfit, at least.

Um. NO!

You are missing premises here

Superman is having hallucinations So yes WW can kill a Superman having hallucinations, yes you are correct, but that is hardly standard rule for a vs forum. In this case Wonder Woman is NOT fighting Superman having having hallucinations. It will be interesting if you can provide proof of Wonder Woman having a winning performance vs Superman when Superman is on his right mind. Because it usually happens when Superman is having hallucinations.

So yes Wonder Woman can kill a Superman having hallucinations, who is thinking that is fighting huge monster when in reality He is fighting a slim figure like WW, AND if a hallucinating Superman get's his hands around WW and REALLY want's to kill her, he can do it in less than a minute.

I wonder how it will look if a NON-hallucinating Superman fought Diana with the intention of killing her? Maybe like this? mmm

Less than a minute

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There is no mention of that in the issue in which the actual fight takes place.
And Greg Rucka, in an interview which Pr confirmed as legit, himself says that Superman was going all out, trying to kill Doomsday, period.

What you're talking about is a follow up issue where Superman relates untrustworthy memories to Lois. Interestingly, people who want to take that issue as gospel seldom relate that Superman himself thinks "I can't even save myself", as he finds his throat being slashed open by Wondy's tiara.

eer There is no need for that the issue which explains Superman's "untrustworthy" memories is written by none other than GREG RUCKA

And yes Greg Rucka did not lie on the interview, he only told a partial truth. Superman HAD the intention of killing Doomsday, then He had the intention of making him suffer that is why The sun moved out of the way or Superman decided to plummet Doomsday back to earth instead of the sun.

Plus this is on panel display which out weights writer interview, if you want to go by that route but in any case is not like is going to do any better as both issues are written by Rucka and Rucka is the one who said that Superman wanted to make DD suffer, not some other writer but the original writer.

So by Rucka's own words and on panel diplay, Superman did wanted to kill DD originally but then he wanted to make him suffer

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your skill with images is impressive, Salsa.
Rightly did I praise you for them.

However, what you're saying doesn't make sense in the context of the scene, and certainly not, if we want to adopt Delta's supposed "real life" stance, going by common sense logic.

If you're of the mind that Superman flew Diana to the sun, and you've said you are, then you're assuming Superman was flying with Diana at the rate of several million miles per second.

That's a LOT of forward momentum.

We're shown Superman lose his grip as he is turned aside by Diana's eye gouge;
presumably he gets doubled over by a quick strike to the groin or something similar in the process.

He was traveling like a rocket a millisecond before that gouge and presumed strike and during it at the rate of several million miles a second.
Does it make sense to assume he just stopped dead in his tracks at that point, or that he kept going aways?

No matter how much you protest, the only that makes good sense is the latter; that the momentum of several million miles per second thrust kept him going for at least a few yards past Diana. And his target was the sun. So he's closer to the sun than she was.

So the position when she then rushes him is:
Earth --> Diana --> Superman --> Sun

... and when he punches her with all his might sending her back from the direction she came, it's:

Earth <-- Diana <-- Superman <-- Sun.

Which is exactly what we see.

And, more importantly, the thing that actually makes good common sense.

In fact, to speed Delta's own reply to this thread, we can illustrate in "real life" human terms what happens when an attacker, barreling forward, is turned aside from their rush.
They DON'T just stop dead in their tracks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhVbdRdXliw

Thanks for the compliment.

But wait, what?

I mean what you said it will make sense if not for a simple fact and I am going to put the two panels together so you can see it.

AFTER he got the eyes gouged and the kick at the groin Superman is getting ready to punch Diana, this did not happened BEFORE, but AFTER, So there is nothing making Superman move, in fact Superman is getting ready to punch with his hand all the way in the back, ready to punch Diana's face and the voila!

The only logical answer is that Superman punched Wonder Woman so hard that He alter reality and moved the sun to his back 😕

But seriously, this was not movement due to rush, Superman was READY to punch and is not only that he moved from facing the sun to not facing the sun, Diana also moved from not facing the sun to facing the sun, but this happened AFTER the forward momentum was off and Superman was getting ready to punch Diana into the sun.

The only way your theory will be correct is if Diana was getting punched in the back of the head, she is getting punched on the left side the way it was intended all along

There is only a few logical answers for this

1.- The sun moved
2.- Superman affected the whole universe with his punch and the sun moved out of the way
3.- The writer saves Diana's butt, by having Superman changing his mind and instead of killing DD he decided to make him suffer, that is why he decided to punch Diana back to earth instead of the sun

Please tell me what will have happened if Superman had punched Diana right there into the sun? what will have happened if Superman did in fact decided to kill DD instead of making him suffer? what will have happened?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

If [Carver] believes me or not that Delta did not PM me ... inconsequential for this debate

Ultimately ... true.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I believe that if you believe something so hard that you have been debating for 86 pages, you should have the conviction to take it to a BZ so that way there is a closure to it, so I don't think there is anything wrong with issuing a BZ to someone who debates for 86 pages, I mean there has to be some conviction for it right? Unless there are ulterior motives for posting on 86 pages, maybe trolling?

I'm finding it hard to recall any paragraph you've written that I disagree more with.

1. Battlezones are just about the most scan-intensive debates I've seen. With Delta likely having one of the top 5 collections of images on this forum at the ready and years spent organizing them for debates. While Carver probably has a collection 1/4 the size and largely comprised of Marvel Comics showings. Against an opponent who seems to firmly believe in the debate tactic of taunting and egging on the other side to try to make them lose their cool. And who has experience that spans several years over several forums.
I like and respect Carver, but he needs time before he takes on a challenge like that, no matter how valid his points are.

2. There is no such thing as closure if you haven't had a chance to give your side of things. Battlezones are ... what? 2 day to 2 week affairs? (I'm going by Newjak and Naijaboy's debate on WorldBreaker versus World War Hulk's strength levels as my guide. Probably the best debate I've seen on KMC. Note that even that was ultimately decided due to considerations of time and presentation and judges personal aesthetic preferences. To be fair, though, I haven't seen any extraordinary number of Battlezones compared to other KMC threads.)

3. Opinions change as more information becomes available.

For instance, I've actually seen people use JLA 10th Circle scenes to "prove" Superman can not only beat Diana with her sword, but that said weapon would shatter against his "invulnerable" body, while Superman dispatches Diana herself with a relatively light blow. In actuality, in the scene alluded to, the grogginess from said punch is feigned, the sword is not Diana's far sturdier weapon, and Wonder Woman is not even Diana, rather the Martian Manhunter, playing out a strategy to trick the vampire leader Crucifer into taking Jonnz as Crucifer's next "victim".

It takes time to deal with mistakes and misconceptions like that.

I don't see where Battlezones with their limited timeframes are equipped for that job.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I wonder how it will look if a NON-hallucinating Superman fought Diana with the intention of killing her? Maybe like this? mmm

Less than a minute

Do people actually use this as proof?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Do people actually use this as proof?

I don't know but superman there has the intention to kill and he is not hallucinating. She also wants to kill/stop Kal

And is canon for superman for sure as it also seems is canon for her, but being canon is besides the point.

Greg Rucka had a hallucination handicapped superman almost killing ww in less than a minute until he decided to make DD suffer, so it would not be hard to believe that a superman fighting at peak capacity can kill her in a short period of time.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ultimately ... true.

I'm finding it hard to recall any paragraph you've written that I disagree more with.

1. Battlezones are just about the most scan-intensive debates I've seen. With Delta likely having one of the top 5 collections of images on this forum at the ready and years spent organizing them for debates. While Carver probably has a collection 1/4 the size and largely comprised of Marvel Comics showings. Against an opponent who seems to firmly believe in the debate tactic of taunting and egging on the other side to try to make them lose their cool. And who has experience that spans several years over several forums.
I like and respect Carver, but he needs time before he takes on a challenge like that, no matter how valid his points are.

2. There is no such thing as closure if you haven't had a chance to give your side of things. Battlezones are ... what? 2 day to 2 week affairs? (I'm going by Newjak and Naijaboy's debate on WorldBreaker versus World War Hulk's strength levels as my guide. Probably the best debate I've seen on KMC. Note that even that was ultimately decided due to considerations of time and presentation and judges personal aesthetic preferences. To be fair, though, I haven't seen any extraordinary number of Battlezones compared to other KMC threads.)

3. Opinions change as more information becomes available.

For instance, I've actually seen people use JLA 10th Circle scenes to "prove" Superman can not only beat Diana with her sword, but that said weapon would shatter against his "invulnerable" body, while Superman dispatches Diana herself with a relatively light blow. In actuality, in the scene alluded to, the grogginess from said punch is feigned, the sword is not Diana's far sturdier weapon, and Wonder Woman is not even Diana, rather the Martian Manhunter, playing out a strategy to trick the vampire leader Crucifer into taking Jonnz as Crucifer's next "victim".

It takes time to deal with mistakes and misconceptions like that.

I don't see where Battlezones with their limited timeframes are equipped for that job.

Iirc in bz you can set the amount of time or posts for the debate to take place.
If I were carver and I have such a conviction in this issue I will take the challenge regardless of delta's collection, but he knows he is not going to win that, time will not really be an issue as it seems he has plenty of it to post for so many pages and in other threads.

But in anycase, I don't think either carver or Jbl will take on the issue

Come on...Superman wins, but I don't think he would do it under an effin' minute.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Iirc in bz you can set the amount of time or posts for the debate to take place.
If I were carver and I have such a conviction in this issue I will take the challenge regardless of delta's collection, but he knows he is not going to win that, time will not really be an issue as it seems he has plenty of it to post for so many pages and in other threads.

But in anycase, I don't think either carver or Jbl will take on the issue

Not the reason. As I've stated before, I am not prepared for a battlezone and honestly, I don't care for them. Someone can challenge me in a battlezone in regards to Hulk being a 50 toner and I wouldn't accept it because even if I won, it wouldn't change anything, AND, it's time consuming, time that I'm not wasting to put effort into a comic character. If Delta wants to debate about a character, we can do it here where I can post on my terms, whenever I want, without any rules and without me doing research through 100's' of comics just to find a worthy scan.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Come on...Superman wins, but I don't think he would do it under an effin' minute.

Comics point that it is the case IF Superman is bloodlusted.

"Regular" portrayal will not be like that.

But since "sacrifice" was mentioned

Originally posted by carver9
Not the reason. As I've stated before, I am not prepared for a battlezone and honestly, I don't care for them. Someone can challenge me in a battlezone in regards to Hulk being a 50 toner and I wouldn't accept it because even if I won, it wouldn't change anything, AND, it's time consuming, time that I'm not wasting to put effort into a comic character. If Delta wants to debate about a character, we can do it here where I can post on my terms, whenever I want, without any rules and without me doing research through 100's' of comics just to find a worthy scan.

If I were to take this to a bz will be to prove the other side wrong and so they don't ignore or dodge evidence. Which is a common practice on non bz threads.

Btw blue, you didn't answer what will have happened if superman punched diana towards the sun, will he have won in under a minute?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
If I were to take this to a bz will be to prove the other side wrong and so they don't ignore or dodge evidence. Which is a common practice on non bz threads.

But I don't care about battlezones though. At all tbh. Someone else can do the Superman and Wonder Woman battlezone if they want or whatever else battlezone that is being offered to me but I am not wasting my time doing it. I don't have the scans for it and I'm not taking the time to look for it. A yr ago I said I was going to redo the Ironman respect thread, it ain't happened yet and it probably will not happen. I went two days gathering scans for Ironman and his respect thread and got bored of it and impatient. If Delta wants to do a tag team battlezone...me and someone else against him and someone else, WTF, I still won't do it because that's time consuming as well. I would rather read all of Insane Titan insults all day before doing a battlezone.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Comics point that it is the case IF Superman is bloodlusted.

"Regular" portrayal will not be like that.

But since "sacrifice" was mentioned

RAO is completely right on this. Mary Sue supporters are behind the 8 ball after lofty claims.

I guess we magically forgot that Diana herself claimed she was holding back.

Kal wins, but no way is he winning this fight against a Diana that wishes to kill him as easily as some posters here are claiming.

Originally posted by SquallX
I guess we magically forgot that Diana herself claimed she was holding back.

Kal wins, but no way is he winning this fight against a Diana that wishes to kill him as easily as some posters here are claiming.

I guess you magically forgot that kal is having hallucinations and that he wanted to make Doomsday SUFFER not killing him.

But if you don't believe a bloodlusted superman can kill diana in less than a minute I will like for you to answer what will have happened if superman decided to kill DD instead of making him suffer, in other words, what will have happened if superman punched diana into the sun? Wouldn't that be a win under a minute? And is not me suggesting it, it was Greg Rucka.

So an argument of disbelief is not going to work in here.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I guess you magically forgot that kal is having hallucinations and that he wanted to make Doomsday SUFFER not killing him.

But if you don't believe a bloodlusted superman can kill diana in less than a minute I will like for you to answer what will have happened if superman decided to kill DD instead of making him suffer, in other words, what will have happened if superman punched diana into the sun? Wouldn't that be a win under a minute? And is not me suggesting it, it was Greg Rucka.

So an argument of disbelief is not going to work in here.

So you admit they were at the sun?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I guess you magically forgot that kal is having hallucinations and that he wanted to make Doomsday SUFFER not killing him.

But if you don't believe a bloodlusted superman can kill diana in less than a minute I will like for you to answer what will have happened if superman decided to kill DD instead of making him suffer, in other words, what will have happened if superman punched diana into the sun? Wouldn't that be a win under a minute? And is not me suggesting it, it was Greg Rucka.

So an argument of disbelief is not going to work in here.

Oh please, Kal wanted to kill Doomsday, no where did it state he wanted to make him suffer first. I don't remember reading that part in the story.

Throughout the whole fight, Diana's mind set was to get to Lord. She fought an amp Kal without even going all out.

Hell, if Diana went into that fight with the mindset to kill Kal, she would have done so, and she would have been better geared up.

LOL. It's pretty obvious that although he wanted to kill DD at first since he was taking him to the sun that he apparently changed his mind and decided to make him suffer. Otherwise, why didn't he knock him into the sun instead of all the way back to earth at a speed that had to be faster than light?

Also, Diana said that she was holding back "barely"... and remember that Superman was still at a huge disadvantage because of his hallucinations. Diana flat out stated to Superman in "A League of One" that she could not beat him in combat. Why would she lie about that?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Btw blue, you didn't answer what will have happened if superman punched diana towards the sun, will he have won in under a minute?

I answered this question more than two years ago. My answer hasn't changed all that much. Difference in THIS thread is that people are now on record saying:
"No, you're right ... it makes zero sense to assume Superman was not close enough to the sun to receive considerable amping during that fight".

In answer to your specific question, therefore, yes, if Superman had successfully punched Diana towards the sun, more than likely he would have won in under a minute. The whole point of the WW219 fight as far as Rucka was concerned was to be so deadly serious that the only feasible results were the death of Diana, Clark, Max himself, or some combination of these 3.

The kryptonite ring offset the sun amping. Besides, Superman wasn't amped when he first grabbed Diana by the neck and took her the sun now was he? She couldn't do jack about it. I'm fairly certain that if he wanted DD dead then Diana would be dead from being knocked into the sun instead of back to the earth.