Where was God on 9/11?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
You make it sound like if we banned religion, the world would suddenly be free of senseless killings. But Atheists are responsible for more death than religion: Stalin, Polpot, Mao etc. 3,000 people were killed on 9/11 in the name of a religion.....3,000 was good day for Stalin.

Surely you see the illogic of your own argument, no?

The terrorist attacks would have never existed if not for religion. But no one could suggest to me with any credibility or evidence that those maniacs did what they did because they were atheist, or if they had followed a religion the same thing wouldn't have happened.

Crazy comes in all forms. But religion leads to it far easier. Religion, for all of its purported goos, is based upon irrational blind faith. Atheism, for how much criticism it takes in public opinion, is based on reason. I fail to see how the latter is more harmful.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
hitler was a christian. he incinerated six million jews. he was also a vegetarian. shud i blame those acts on him being christian and vegetarianism then?

My point exactly.

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However, we've established at length via my arguments with him that Mota is insanely bigoted toward atheists, so his response shouldn't come as a surprise.

Such a horrible point.

Hitler might have been a christian but he did not act like one at all. It's like if you are white and you are called a racist because of the support of Jim crow laws from whites. Very bad logic. Of course, this is all due to extremism which is basically a sinful way to spread your faith to others and showing ignorance or hate towards other people in what they believe in.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Surely you see the illogic of your own argument, no?

The terrorist attacks would have never existed if not for religion. But no one could suggest to me with any credibility or evidence that those maniacs did what they did because they were atheist, or if they had followed a religion the same thing wouldn't have happened.

Crazy comes in all forms. But religion leads to it far easier.

The fact that Mao, Stalin and Polpot were Athiest is what gave them the go-ahead (in their minds) to slaughter those millions.

So when Athiests point the finger at religions for being responsible for death and destruction, they also have to realize that Athiests aren't innocent.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

My point exactly.

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However, we've established at length via my arguments with him that Mota is insanely bigoted toward atheists, so his response shouldn't come as a surprise.

Hitler was raised Christian, it ended there. Same with Stalin.

Originally posted by JacopeX
Such a horrible point.

Hitler might have been a christian but he did not act like one at all. It's like if you are white and you are called a racist because of the support of Jim crow laws from whites. Very bad logic. Of course, this is all due to extremism which is basically a sinful way to spread your faith to others and showing ignorance or hate towards other people in what they believe in.

That's the point though. Leonheart was saying you can't blame Christianity for Hitler....you blame Hitler for Hitler. And I agree. It was in response to Mota trying to make the same logical fallacy about atheists.

I'd also like to point out that atheism actually didn't enter the conversation until Mota brought it up out of nowhere to slander it. It's off-topic, and even if he's right (he's not) it doesn't shed any of the burden of religion's hand in 9/11. False AND hateful. A good combination.

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Originally posted by JacopeX
Such a horrible point.

Hitler might have been a christian but he did not act like one at all. It's like if you are white and you are called a racist because of the support of Jim crow laws from whites. Very bad logic. Of course, this is all due to extremism which is basically a sinful way to spread your faith to others and showing ignorance or hate towards other people in what they believe in.

There are a lot of Christians, in the world, that don't act like one. However, your point is correct.

Originally posted by ushomefree
On September 11, 2001, God was exactly where He always is – in Heaven in total control of everything that happens in the universe. Why, then, would a good and loving God allow such a tragedy to happen?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
That's the point though. Leonheart was saying you can't blame Christianity for Hitler....you blame Hitler for Hitler. And I agree. It was in response to Mota trying to make the same logical fallacy about atheists.

I'd also like to point out that atheism actually didn't enter the conversation until Mota brought it up out of nowhere to slander it. It's off-topic, and even if he's right (he's not) it doesn't shed any of the burden of religion's hand in 9/11. False AND hateful. A good combination.

🙄

I'm not calling Athiests killers, I'm pointing out to the ones who blame religion for terrible things that Atheists aren't angels and in history there are Athiests responsible for horrendous things. 3,000 (the number of people killed on 9/11) is child's play compared to Stalin or Polpot.

Originally posted by parenthesis
God works in mysterious ways. Which in my opinion, makes prayer and doing anything holy in general, worthless.

Maybe doing good things is worth while, just because it is.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I'm not calling Athiests killers, I'm pointing out to the ones who blame religion for terrible things that Atheists aren't angels and in history there are Athiests responsible for horrendous things. 3,000 (the nuber of people killed on 9/11) is child's play compared to Stalin or Polpot.

If you'll read my opening post again, I think you'll that you're missing the point. Religion does good. Yay! But it's based on evidence-less faith, which allows for irrational violence for the sake of that faith. Christian, Islam, Hindu, doesn't matter. Take away the terrorists (largely irrational and wholly unsupported) belief in an afterlife, for example, and we never would have had the New York attacks.

Atheists do bad things. All the time. So do Christians. If I was feeling petty, I could probably dig up some estimates from the crusades, or add Hitler's total to religion's evils, and we'd compare notes. But that would be pointless. Most of those cases are just crazy men, and it has little to do with dogma anyway.

Bottom line: Atheism doesn't have any built-in mechanism that slants it toward unreasonable action or violence. Religion does.

And, as before, you are calling atheists killers because you're implying that they are predisposed to it because of their beliefs, though you haven't actually stated why this is. So despite what you'd like us to think, this is pretty uninformed.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
God was flying the planes. Metaphorically, of course, because belief in a mono-theistic deity is what led to such violent strife between cultures. He wasn't literally flying the plane because he isn't actually anywhere. If the pilots didn't believe in God (Allah in their case), or if they didn't believe in an afterlife filled with virgins and bliss for their actions, they never would have undertaken the flight. No one would have.

Completely disagree with you there Digi.

Those monsters flying the planes had a hatred for anything that the is consider Americanism and capitalism.

They hate us and even if there was no God. They still hate us for what we have and what we believe.

We have what they don't have. Which is FREEDOM. That's why they hate us.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Crazy comes in all forms. But religion leads to it far easier. Religion, for all of its purported goos, is based upon irrational blind faith. Atheism, for how much criticism it takes in public opinion, is based on reason. I fail to see how the latter is more harmful.

Not all atheists are rationalists.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Bottom line: Atheism doesn't have any built-in mechanism that slants it toward unreasonable action or violence.

Actually it does, because it removes barriers that would normally make a person say "Wait a minute, this is wrong."

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Bottom line: Atheism doesn't have any built-in mechanism that slants it toward unreasonable action or violence. Religion does.

No it doesn't. People do.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not all atheists are rationalists and thus atheism does not have to be based on reason.

Because it isn't.

"Atheism is not caused by reason, but by a kind of cowardly moral escapism."
-Dinesh D'souza

Evil deeds don't stem from religion, they stem from simple human nature. Even if there was no religious belief people would find other reasons to hate others, and kill and maim as a result. Instead of doing it in the name of God, they'd do it in the name of french fries, or something.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Actually it does, because it removes barriers that would normally make a person say "Wait a minute, this is wrong."

Sorry Quiero, that's BS. That thinking is based on the idea that all morality is based on some kind of religious foundation; as if it's not possible to have decent independent morals outside of what a certain religion has told us. Athiests as a whole would agree with most theists as a whole about what is and isn't wrong.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not all atheists are rationalists and thus atheism does not have to be based on reason.

You talk about Atheists as if it was a belief. It is not a belief, but a disbelief in a God. There is no code, or set of rules for Atheists.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You talk about Atheists as if it was a belief. It is not a belief, but a disbelief in a God. There is no code, or set of rules for Atheists.

If the claim is made that "atheism is based on reason" (which it was) then all of it's followers must be rationalists and have a reason for what they do.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If the claim is made that "atheism is based on reason" (which it was) then all of it's followers must be rationalists and have a reason for what they do.

Ya, but I didn't agree with "atheism is based on reason".

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ya, but I didn't agree with "atheism is based on reason".

Then why respond to me? 😛

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then why respond to me? 😛

I missed the other one. 😛