Where was God on 9/11?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not all atheists are rationalists.

Not all atheists are anything in particular. And the non-belief in a deity, which is all atheism is, has literally nothing to say about morality. Nothing. Blaming "atheist morality" (which doesn't actually exist, though Christian mroality certainly does) is like blaming a child for hitting someone because he believes in Santa. The two are unrelated.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Completely disagree with you there Digi.

Those monsters flying the planes had a hatred for anything that the is consider Americanism and capitalism.

They hate us and even if there was no God. They still hate us for what we have and what we believe.

We have what they don't have. Which is FREEDOM. That's why they hate us.

Take away their belief in an afterlife, which is an irrational belief based on faith rather than evidence, and would the attacks still have happened? Much less likely.

....

The most common idea I see here is that atheists have no standard form of morality, and thus are predisposed to violence. First, this would assume that if left to their own reason, most people will settle on violence. Second, atheism itself is simply a belief in no deity....any moral decisions people make beyond that are their own, and not linked to the body that is "atheism". On the contrary, most religious texts advocate some form of violence (Islam clearly, and Christianity for those who are willing to be honest about their scriptures) and anyone acting on their behalf is actually acting "for" their religion. "Atheist morality" doesn't exist. It's individual choice. "Christian morality" most certainly does exist, or Islam, etc. Anything done from a moral standpoint under those religions is a direct reflection of the religion.

Most modern morality (at least standard morality in society) is leagues beyond what would have been practiced or preached in any ancient religion. I'm much more willing to trust someone who is using modern standards of goodness to decide their morals, than someone who takes vague, multi-interpretational text from millenia ago and act as though it is infallible.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Actually it does, because it removes barriers that would normally make a person say "Wait a minute, this is wrong."

I dealt with most of this above. But religious ideals are as arbitrary and flawed as any person's morality might be if they determined it for themselves. You're saying that Christian (or religious) morality has the objective final say in what is right and wrong, but it doesn't, and most times it's completely f*cked up when you actually read what people use religion to justify.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If the claim is made that "atheism is based on reason" (which it was) then all of it's followers must be rationalists and have a reason for what they do.

The point was made because it doesn't have faith involved with it. So I stand by it. I wasn't implying that all atheists are rationalists. That was an addition you made. But none have blind faith that leads to irrational violence. They may be irrational anyway, but it's from something other than their atheism.

Originally posted by BackFire
Sorry Quiero, that's BS. That thinking is based on the idea that all morality is based on some kind of religious foundation; as if it's not possible to have decent independent morals outside of what a certain religion has told us. Athiests as a whole would agree with most theists as a whole about what is and isn't wrong.

Nicely put.

😄

He was there keeping it from being worse. 😎

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no code, or set of rules for Atheists.

Actually...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The point was made because it doesn't have faith involved with it. So I stand by it. I wasn't implying that all atheists are rationalists. That was an addition you made. But none have blind faith that leads to irrational violence. They may be irrational anyway, but it's from something other than their atheism.

Lack of faith does not imply reliance on reason.

Blind irrational faith does appear in atheists, just not in the form of God. Some soldiers will been blindly follow orders, cult leaders can convince people to throw their lives away, prisoners in death camps have been known to believe that their salvation in imminent.

Originally posted by Mindship
He was there keeping it from being worse. 😎

hmm

While everyone was looking the other way Jesus saved a bunch of other planes of hijackers?

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Take away their belief in an afterlife, which is an irrational belief based on faith rather than evidence, and would the attacks still have happened? Much less likely.

Yes, it still would have happen. 9/11 wasn't the first nor will be the last time these people will attack us. Clear point: "They hate us". Doesn't matter if we were Buddhist or Atheist or Misc. They hate anything that is American.

Here,religion was use as the scapegoat. Deep down behind all these attacks it's the hatred for us. Why? They're jealous of us. They hate anything that is connected to the US.

Their hatred drove them to the point of complete and utter stupidity and idiocy. That they fail to see their own hypocricy. Case in point. These terrorist hate everything that involves capitalism. However, when they're making those videos featuring Osama. They fail to see that when they bought and use the camera and the tape with which to make the video. They contributed in someway to capitalism.

Go ahead and take away their beliefs....they still going to hate us.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Yes, it still would have happen. 9/11 wasn't the first nor will be the last time these people will attack us. Clear point: "They hate us". Doesn't matter if we were Buddhist or Atheist or Misc. They hate anything that is American.

Here,religion was use as the scapegoat. Deep down behind all these attacks it's the hatred for us. Why? They're jealous of us. They hate anything that is connected to the US.

Their hatred drove them to the point of complete and utter stupidity and idiocy. That they fail to see their own hypocricy. Case in point. These terrorist hate everything that involves capitalism. However, when they're making those videos featuring Osama. They fail to see that the when they bought and use the camera and the tape with which to make the video. They contributed in someway to capitalism.

Go ahead and take away their beliefs....they still going to hate us.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, right, they hate you for your freedom, eh?

Haha, great.

Originally posted by Bardock42
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, right, they hate you for your freedom, eh?

Haha, great.

Yes, they hate us. We have what they don't have. That's what makes them jealous.

*hugs freedom*

living by a realm of reason and logic absent of faith is to presume you somehow know everything
there are things that aren't rational or logical or that can be explained by what we know
to believe there are things humans don't know or understand is the most logical view of all in my view

Free will. We are all born with it. We are free to do what we want, whether it is giving money to church, or flying an airliner into a building. Those who piloted the hijacked planes did so on their own accord, God knew what was going on, he wasn't going to magically stop it. We are not his slaves, he is not going to MAKE us do what he prefers.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
He isn´t in control of everything. When Adam chose to take Satans temptation and rebel. God gave us and Satan the chance to see if he could do it better without him, and this is what has come of it.

Of course in prayer we can ask for spiritual help, but God won´t directly take part in insane earthly politics....................................YET!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
hmm

While everyone was looking the other way Jesus saved a bunch of other planes of hijackers?

Originally posted by Mindship
Didn't Jesus have his own comic for a while?

One issue at least. He beat up the entire Greek pantheon.

Originally posted by Mindship
Anyway, it would be more of a, "God works in mysterious ways" kinda thing.

Mine would be more fun.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Are you considering all the people who have been killed over religion over recorded history? The number is much higher...

However, you are correct, banning religion would not stop senseless killings. To get rid of senseless killings we would have to remove all attachments. Both Religious and Atheistic people have attachments that lead to evil and suffering.

Right so it isn't the religion that causes the killing, and attachment doesn't necessarily consist of "religion". Some consider Buddhism to be a religion (even though it's a psychology in my opinion) but assuming it is in fact a religion, you can't have a religion say that "the only way to freedom is through the unattachment of all things (religion including)." The solution is not to strip man of everything good and bad, but to simply strip man of the bad. Buddhism tries this but they doubt and ask "what is truly bad?" So out of security it is best to strip man of everything and leave him at that. Granted it's an understatement but the result is still the same. And though we have a duty to purify the imperfection within us, we are inherently social creatures that must extend to the purification of the imperfections in our neighbors as well. And no not the purification as is the stereotypical belief of fire and killing, but purification through discipline and practice, love and kindness. These are not philosophies to just Buddhism, but to Judaism Christianity and Muslim as well (and the others I didn't mention).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Lack of faith does not imply reliance on reason.

Blind irrational faith does appear in atheists, just not in the form of God. Some soldiers will been blindly follow orders, cult leaders can convince people to throw their lives away, prisoners in death camps have been known to believe that their salvation in imminent.

But that has nothing to do with their beliefs or their atheism. And I conceded that atheists can be stupid, irrational, or violent in my last post, but stipulated that it isn't linked with their atheism (because it isn't). It's just "normal" stupidity, the kind that can be found in anyone regardless of belief.

And hopefully your soldier example wasn't leading toward a "no atheists in foxholes" argument, because that's not much more than religious smugness.

...

It still comes down to me to "Where does religion or atheism lead to irrational actions?" For religion, the answer is faith. For atheism, the only answers thus far have been gross misinterpretations of what atheism is, or trying to ascribe more to it than is justified.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It still comes down to me to "Where does religion or atheism lead to irrational actions?" For religion, the answer is faith. For atheism, the only answers thus far have been gross misinterpretations of what atheism is, or trying to ascribe more to it than is justified.

They don't. Religion is a good man moving somewhere. Atheism is merely a good man standing still. Both subjects perform evil acts out of misunderstanding (a warped form of good). But religion is not the center of a religious man's error as atheism is no sooner guilty of the same. And as a catholic I find it stomach churning to hear that atheist have no morals. The only thing an atheist and a religious person differ in any important way is motivation.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But that has nothing to do with their beliefs or their atheism. And I conceded that atheists can be stupid, irrational, or violent in my last post, but stipulated that it isn't linked with their atheism (because it isn't). It's just "normal" stupidity, the kind that can be found in anyone regardless of belief.

And the point I'm trying to make to you is that those same forms of idiocy are responsible for much of the horror that seems to come out of religion.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And hopefully your soldier example wasn't leading toward a "no atheists in foxholes" argument, because that's not much more than religious smugness.

😂 Didn't even occur to me actually.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It still comes down to me to "Where does religion or atheism lead to irrational actions?" For religion, the answer is faith. For atheism, the only answers thus far have been gross misinterpretations of what atheism is, or trying to ascribe more to it than is justified.

No atheism doesn't lead to irrational actions but it's also no form of salvation (tired couldn't think of a better word) from innate human irrationality. Which is, in my opinion, the source of evils done in the name of God or faith. People would and do perform such actions without the help of religion and trying to say "hey look religious people did bad things their faith must be at fault" is very insulting.

I'll attempt to compromise with you SC, because I realize that you understand my point. But I think you're giving religion too much credit by saying that it's entirely (or even mostly) general human ignorance and irrationality, and that religion plays no part in it.

Sometimes, yes, it's not connected with any religious (or non-religious belief). Maybe even the majority. But whereas atheism does nothing to contribute to that, religion certainly has the potential to.

Faith, by definition, is belief without evidence, and it is the foundation of many religions. Faith fosters an environment, either culturally (where an area is dominated by religion) or individually within a religious person, where irrational acts are more likely to occur because of that faith.

So I don't intend to insult when I say that religion leads to violence, I merely wish to point out a truth that I see. Because I see blind faith, the kind religions promote, to be a plague upon the world...the kind that creates environments in which acts like 9/11 can occur. Similar events would certainly occur sans faith, but not as many imo.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'll attempt to compromise with you SC, because I realize that you understand my point. But I think you're giving religion too much credit by saying that it's entirely (or even mostly) general human ignorance and irrationality, and that religion plays no part in it.

Sometimes, yes, it's not connected with any religious (or non-religious belief). Maybe even the majority. But whereas atheism does nothing to contribute to that, religion certainly has the potential to.

Faith, by definition, is belief without evidence, and it is the foundation of many religions. Faith fosters an environment, either culturally (where an area is dominated by religion) or individually within a religious person, where irrational acts are more likely to occur because of that faith.

Fair enough.