Where was God on 9/11?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
who exercises the free will? that's the whole point, WE exercise it. And when did I say that we are perfect? hmm?

You said "It's one thing if the suffering is brought about by God, like if he did something along the way that makes mankind suffer" and I said that he did something along the way to make mankind suffer. So, yeah. Score one for me. Also this:

I am sick of hearing the "he sacrificed his only son" thing, that's also a load of crap. Sacrificing means giving up, not letting him feel some pain over the course of 32 years and then having him for an eternity in heaven to rule besides him. That's called a ****ing promotion, not a sacrifice.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You said "It's one thing if the suffering is brought about by God, like if he did something along the way that makes mankind suffer" and I said that he did something along the way to make mankind suffer. So, yeah. Score one for me.

Also this:

I am sick of hearing the "he sacrificed his only son" thing, that's also a load of crap. Sacrificing means giving up, not letting him feel some pain over the course of 32 years and then having him for an eternity in heaven to rule besides him. That's called a ****ing promotion, not a sacrifice.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Score one for you? Lets see.....what exactly did he do along the way to make mankind suffer?

Create them. Make them imperfect. Give them free will. Put them on a dangerous planet. And on top of that not intervene when it was really easy for him to do so.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You'd probably see things differently if you were tortured, whipped, and crucified. "Some pain?"...pfft. Why not just say it was a "slight discomfort?"

Probably was less than that for a divine being. So, yeah, he got tortured 3 days. Big deal. Many, many humans died much worse than him. And he still got resurrected and is now all powerful and worshipped forever together with his loving father

Originally posted by Bardock42
Create them. Make them imperfect. Give them free will. Put them on a dangerous planet. And on top of that not intervene when it was really easy for him to do so.

Probably was less than that for a divine being. So, yeah, he got tortured 3 days. Big deal. Many, many humans died much worse than him. And he still got resurrected and is now all powerful and worshipped forever together with his loving father

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I get your point here, I really do, but the thing is that you cannot expect him to bail us out, to pull our nuts out of the fire when we get into hot water from something that WE caused.

Wouldn't expect that, I think he's an old fairy tale pervert anyways. Just saying that if he exists and did indeed create us, all the suffering in the world is solely and ultimately due to him.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
As far as the free will thing goes, would you rather he ruled over uslike a tyrant, that we were nothing but automatons?

His existance alone makes that happen. And people believe he does intervene with prayers. So, I wouldn't mind if he'd intervene in our lives as long as he makes them great for all of us.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
WWII: we caused it, why should he intervene?

He created Hitler.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You can't say that God making us imperfect is the reason for our suffering.

Yeah I can, I did and I would be correct if God existed.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well, this is your stance on this, and I can sense that there is nothing I can say, nor anyone else can say to change it, am I correct?

Facts would help.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Wouldn't expect that, I think he's an old fairy tale pervert anyways. Just saying that if he exists and did indeed create us, all the suffering in the world is solely and ultimately due to him.

His existance alone makes that happen. And people believe he does intervene with prayers. So, I wouldn't mind if he'd intervene in our lives as long as he makes them great for all of us.

He created Hitler.

Yeah I can, I did and I would be correct if God existed.

Facts would help.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Lemmee ask you this, do you think God is all knowing?

No, I believe he doesn't exist.

I do think that many Christians believe God is all knowing though.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yes, he intervenes with prayer, to a certain degree. But, as I said, he is not gonna hold our hand while we pee. He is gonna let us make our own choices and suffer the rewards and/or consequences.

Except for when he intervenes with prayers. Sure.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yes, he created Hitler, but Hitler was not created evil, Hitler, on his own accord, exercised his FREE WILL and became evil. God had NOTHING to do with it.

God knew that Hitler would become evil. At least God knew that he could become evil. Besides, when do you think Hitler suddenly decided "Hey...I am going to be evil today".

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
need your answer on the first quote of this post before I can go on here.

Ok.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What you're saying is not facts, they are your personal opinion.

Nah.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, I believe he doesn't exist.

I do think that many Christians believe God is all knowing though.

Except for when he intervenes with prayers. Sure.

God knew that Hitler would become evil. At least God knew that he could become evil. Besides, when do you think Hitler suddenly decided "Hey...I am going to be evil today".

Nah.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Where are your facts? I want facts. I can't provide you with any, I am going on my faith.

*jabs fist into air in triumph*

*then hangs head in realization that the victory is a hollow one*

...read anything I've written in this thread if you're confused about the reaction.

...

Also, prayer has never been shown to do anything. Anecdotes are wonderful for fueling faith without providing real evidence, but any controlled double-blind study conducted to test the effects of prayer has found no correlation whatsoever. The most prominent study of its kind actually had a negative correlation between health of the people being prayed for as opposed to those who were not receiving prayers.

I don't mean to imply that prayer has negative effects, of course. That would imply it has an effect at all. The results are merely random, because remote prayer does nothing.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
*jabs fist into air in triumph*

*then hangs head in realization that the victory is a hollow one*

...read anything I've written in this thread if you're confused about the reaction.

...

Also, prayer has never been shown to do anything. Anecdotes are wonderful for fueling faith without providing real evidence, but any controlled double-blind study conducted to test the effects of prayer has found no correlation whatsoever. The most prominent study of its kind actually had a negative correlation between health of the people being prayed for as opposed to those who were not receiving prayers.

I don't mean to imply that prayer has negative effects, of course. That would imply it has an effect at all. The results are merely random, because remote prayer does nothing.

You cant rely on a "study" to determine whether praying is beneficial or not. It's just not feasible.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It's not a victory, nor is it a loss. I am relying on my faith for my argument, what are you relying on?

You cant rely on a "study" to determine whether praying is beneficial or not. It's just not feasible.

No, I have loads of empirical evidence to suggest that religions in general are pretty asinine. Their only bastion of hope would be studies or evidence that would prove me wrong...examples like the prayer thing fail miserably, and anecdotes are, as stated before, nothing that can be taken as anything but fanciful stories.

And yes, seeing that there's a lack of any feasible evidence for prayer is a much more valid reason for not believing in prayer, than it is to believe in it based on blind faith. I'm not saying I know for certain (none of us can know for certain about anything, so it runs both ways) but it's clearly the more logical conclusion.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
No, I have loads of empirical evidence to suggest that religions in general are pretty asinine. Their only bastion of hope would be studies or evidence that would prove me wrong...examples like the prayer thing fail miserably, and anecdotes are, as stated before, nothing that can be taken as anything but fanciful stories.

And yes, seeing that there's a lack of any feasible evidence for prayer is a much more valid reason for not believing in prayer, than it is to believe in it based on blind faith. I'm not saying I know for certain (none of us can know for certain about anything, so it runs both ways) but it's clearly the more logical conclusion.

god just did it for the lulz

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The most prominent study of its kind actually had a negative correlation between health of the people being prayed for as opposed to those who were not receiving prayers.

Only the people who knew they were being prayed for had a negative correlation. When they were prayed for without being told there was no difference from people who weren't prayed for.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
😆 😆 😆

dude please STOP. you are sooooooooo delusional, ur gonna make me crack a rib just trying not to laugh. actually it isnt even funny anymore, you need a reality check.

Oh, I'm sure you have all the answers store inside a little pocket.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

Where are your facts? I want facts. I can't provide you with any, I am going on my faith.

Facts about whether there were people tortured in worse ways, well, there were people that had the same happen to them as that Jesus. What happened to some of the women during witch hunts and inquisition is worse. Hell, I am sure there are examples of people tortured and killed in worse ways than Jesus in recent times. That's just an undeniable fact. Jesus didn't suffer worse than every other person.

Now if we go to the definition of sacrifice, which is the thing I talked about, yes, there I have facts too.....the dictionary:

Main Entry:
1sac·ri·fice Listen to the pronunciation of 1sacrifice
Pronunciation:
\ˈsa-krə-ˌfīs, also -fəs or -ˌfīz\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin sacrificium, from sacr-, sacer + facere to make — more at do
Date:
13th century

1: an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar2: something offered in sacrifice3 a: destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b: something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>4: loss <goods sold at a sacrifice>5: sacrifice hit

1 and 2 don't apply obviously.

3 doesn't apply as Jesus wasn't destroyed or surrendered, given up or lost, he had to go through some hardship and went back to being superhappy.

Hardly much of a sacrifice. Your faith can really suck my balls on that one, facts trump it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Facts about whether there were people tortured in worse ways, well, there were people that had the same happen to them as that Jesus. What happened to some of the women during witch hunts and inquisition is worse. Hell, I am sure there are examples of people tortured and killed in worse ways than Jesus in recent times. That's just an undeniable fact. Jesus didn't suffer worse than every other person.

Now if we go to the definition of sacrifice, which is the thing I talked about, yes, there I have facts too.....the dictionary:

Main Entry:
1sac·ri·fice Listen to the pronunciation of 1sacrifice
Pronunciation:
\&#712;sa-kr&#601;-&#716;f&#299;s, also -f&#601;s or -&#716;f&#299;z\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin sacrificium, from sacr-, sacer + facere to make — more at do
Date:
13th century

1: an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar2: something offered in sacrifice3 a: destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b: something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>4: loss <goods sold at a sacrifice>5: sacrifice hit

1 and 2 don't apply obviously.

3 doesn't apply as Jesus wasn't destroyed or surrendered, given up or lost, he had to go through some hardship and went back to being superhappy.

Hardly much of a sacrifice. Your faith can really suck my balls on that one, facts trump it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so what you are saying to me, more or less, is that there is no way I can prove God's existence, or that praying works.

No. There's clear ways that one could show that either one is likely, or even just a possibility. But so far, any attempt at either has failed miserably.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Only the people who knew they were being prayed for had a negative correlation. When they were prayed for without being told there was no difference from people who weren't prayed for.

Right. That's the study I was referring to. So like I said. No evidence to support prayer having any effect on anything. If any conclusions could be drawn, the only possible explanation is that increased stress from knowing they were being prayed for (and the pressure to "perform" and get better) caused them to deteriorate. But that's a perfectly causal explanation, not a supernatural one.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Facts about whether there were people tortured in worse ways, well, there were people that had the same happen to them as that Jesus. What happened to some of the women during witch hunts and inquisition is worse. Hell, I am sure there are examples of people tortured and killed in worse ways than Jesus in recent times. That's just an undeniable fact. Jesus didn't suffer worse than every other person.

Now if we go to the definition of sacrifice, which is the thing I talked about, yes, there I have facts too.....the dictionary:

Main Entry:
1sac·ri·fice Listen to the pronunciation of 1sacrifice
Pronunciation:
\&#712;sa-kr&#601;-&#716;f&#299;s, also -f&#601;s or -&#716;f&#299;z\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin sacrificium, from sacr-, sacer + facere to make — more at do
Date:
13th century

1: an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar2: something offered in sacrifice3 a: destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b: something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>4: loss <goods sold at a sacrifice>5: sacrifice hit

1 and 2 don't apply obviously.

3 doesn't apply as Jesus wasn't destroyed or surrendered, given up or lost, he had to go through some hardship and went back to being superhappy.

Hardly much of a sacrifice. Your faith can really suck my balls on that one, facts trump it.

#2 applies if you assume God was intending the creation of Christianity.

#3 applies because God surrendered his son to humanity's judgment.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
um...thats all useful info, but I meant facts that God doesnt exist.

Why would you mean that? It's in no way what we have talked about. You have to ask your question on the topic at hand not random things that crossed your mind.