Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Try again Noobaris. Bane gets pwned badly.. And Anakin's birth is unknown regardless of the NEC. George Lucas specifically said that question will be left unanswered.
Left to be unanswered by him or his movies. Who's to say that something else won't give the details of it, which we can all believe until GL says no, and then we have to OF COURSE take a statement of a single person over a published work of literature.
Note: Oh, God. Nebaris is back again.
Note #2: Come to think of it, what was Nebaris' original username and reason for banning?
Note #3: And how did we figure out his name was Nebaris?
Note #4: And is Nebaris his first or last name?
I'm confused.
And as for the thread, Luke pwns Bane.
Note #5: And I'm also sorry for deriding GL, which I know nobody likes, since everyone has to worship him.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Try again Noobaris. Bane gets pwned badly..
Originally posted by caedusrulesall
And as for the thread, Luke pwns Bane.
Provide an argument, or go home.
Force Mastery: Bane displays the ability to direct a lightning attack across an entire planet (this was PoD Bane, with only a few years of training, who then went on to refine his abilities for an entire decade), and use his powers on the sub-atomic level (that was his Ro2 self).
Force Power: Bane displays the strength to absorb a level of energy that was stated to have been able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan, and contain it rather than get torn apart by it. His power is also stated to be far greater than that of the entire BoD, a force strong legion of Force users.
Force Knowledge: He possesses the sources of knowledge of three great Lords of the Sith: Darth Revan, Freedon Nadd, and Belia Darzu, having studied extensively the knowledge bases of the first two.
Overall Lightsaber Ability: On equal footing with Kas'im, and before receiving the benefits of the orbalisk armour, he was able to completely dominate the battle, and this was against a foe that had mastered and spent decades perfecting every single form of the lightsaber, was extremely physically conditioned, and was strong enough in the Force that he was able to defend against an attack that would have instantly decimated his entire body. He was stated by the omniscient narrator to be the greatest swordsman of his age, and possibly the greatest there had ever been up until his time.
Speed in Combat: His displays of speed in the middle of combat are completely unparalleled, where he's been described to move far too quickly for powerful Force users (the likes of Kas'im) to see, and where he's been described to fight so quickly that his lightsaber appeared to be everywhere at once (from the perspective of someone as powerful as Darth Zannah).
Physical conditioning: Bane was described as a "mountain of muscle," and stood 2 metres tall.
Orbalisk armour: The orbalisks cover his entire body, with the exception of his head, and are immune to almost any type of physical damage there is (with lightning stated to be the only weakness), and enhance Bane's physical capabilities (via adrenaline) and strength in the Force (via darkside energies) to substantial degrees. In lightsaber combat, this enables him to focus nearly completely on offence without having to sacrifice defence, use his body to block attacks, and throw melee attacks without having to worry about his limbs being sliced off, making him a far more effective, and alien fighter.
Intelligence: Bane is consistently displayed to be a smart fighter, where he's shown to use his surrounding to his advantage, and make full use of the advantages he has over his opponents. Outside of combat, he's described as being a genius, and visionary, and his learning rate is shown to be more extreme than that of any other (fully mastering force lightning in under an hour for instance). Aside from all of that, his prowess in manipulation is described as being pretty phenomenal, similar to the likes of Darth Sidious and Darth Traya, as can be seen here:
Bane was a visionary, able to see far into the future. He understood how to exploit the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the Republic. he knew how to draw the eyes of the Jedi away from the dark side, while at the same time leading them down the first steps that would end in their complete annihilation. He could manipulate people, organisations, and governments, planting seeds that would lay dormant for years--even decades--before they burst forth. - Ro2, PG 288.
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To recap, he's displayed the ability to defend against a planetary level of power, and his control of his powers is so great that he can use them with a planetary level scale, or alternatively a sub-atomic level scale. He was already an extremely capable lightsaber wielder even before obtaining the orbalisk armour, and with it, he's pretty much unstoppable. He's physically as impressive as it gets, and one of the more intelligent characters there's shown to be in SW Canon. He excels in all areas, and based on what we know, Luke doesn't possess a single advantage over him, and is far from as complete a combatant as Bane is.
So... as I said, Bane wins this one.
Originally posted by IKP
Provide an argument, or go home.Force Mastery: Bane displays the ability to direct a lightning attack across an entire planet (this was PoD Bane, with only a few years of training, who then went on to refine his abilities for an entire decade), and use his powers on the sub-atomic level (that was his Ro2 self).
Force Power: Bane displays the strength to absorb a level of energy that was stated to have been able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan, and contain it rather than get torn apart by it. His power is also stated to be far greater than that of the entire BoD, a force strong legion of Force users.
Force Knowledge: He possesses the sources of knowledge of three great Lords of the Sith: Darth Revan, Freedon Nadd, and Belia Darzu, having studied extensively the knowledge bases of the first two.
Overall Lightsaber Ability: On equal footing with Kas'im, and before receiving the benefits of the orbalisk armour, he was able to completely dominate the battle, and this was against a foe that had mastered and spent decades perfecting every single form of the lightsaber, was extremely physically conditioned, and was strong enough in the Force that he was able to defend against an attack that would have instantly decimated his entire body. He was stated by the omniscient narrator to be the greatest swordsman of his age, and possibly the greatest there had ever been up until his time.
Speed in Combat: His displays of speed in the middle of combat are completely unparalleled, where he's been described to move far too quickly for powerful Force users (the likes of Kas'im) to see, and where he's been described to fight so quickly that his lightsaber appeared to be everywhere at once (from the perspective of someone as powerful as Darth Zannah).
Physical conditioning: Bane was described as a "mountain of muscle," and stood 2 metres tall.
Orbalisk armour: The orbalisks cover his entire body, with the exception of his head, and are immune to almost any type of physical damage there is (with lightning stated to be the only weakness), and enhance Bane's physical capabilities (via adrenaline) and strength in the Force (via darkside energies) to substantial degrees. In lightsaber combat, this enables him to focus nearly completely on offence without having to sacrifice defence, use his body to block attacks, and throw melee attacks without having to worry about his limbs being sliced off, making him a far more effective, and alien fighter.
Intelligence: Bane is consistently displayed to be a smart fighter, where he's shown to use his surrounding to his advantage, and make full use of the advantages he has over his opponents. Outside of combat, he's described as being a genius, and visionary, and his learning rate is shown to be more extreme than that of any other (fully mastering force lightning in under an hour for instance). Aside from all of that, his prowess in manipulation is described as being pretty phenomenal, similar to the likes of Darth Sidious and Darth Traya, as can be seen here:
Bane was a visionary, able to see far into the future. He understood how to exploit the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the Republic. he knew how to draw the eyes of the Jedi away from the dark side, while at the same time leading them down the first steps that would end in their complete annihilation. He could manipulate people, organisations, and governments, planting seeds that would lay dormant for years--even decades--before they burst forth. - Ro2, PG 288.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To recap, he's displayed the ability to defend against a planetary level of power, and his control of his powers is so great that he can use them with a planetary level scale, or alternatively a sub-atomic level scale. He was already an extremely capable lightsaber wielder even before obtaining the orbalisk armour, and with it, he's pretty much unstoppable. He's physically as impressive as it gets, and one of the more intelligent characters there's shown to be in SW Canon. He excels in all areas, and based on what we know, Luke doesn't possess a single advantage over him, and is far from as complete a combatant as Bane is.
So... as I said, Bane wins this one.
That's the irony here. I don't need to provide an argument against an idiot who still hasn't learned to debate, and who has been banned 38+ times. You rehash all the same old defeated arguments, so you being pwned is a foregone conclusion, no debating necessary..
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's the irony here. I don't need to provide an argument against an idiot who still hasn't learned to debate, and who has been banned 38+ times. You rehash all the same old defeated arguments, so you being pwned is a foregone conclusion, no debating necessary..
Seconded.
And Noobaris, if you need your memory refreshed on the Force God, Lord Luke Skywalker, please read one of the fine New Jedi Order or Dark Nest novels. Thank you.
P.S. Or you can get the hell off of KMC and get yourself a life. In fact, do both.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's the irony here. I don't need to provide an argument against an idiot who still hasn't learned to debate, and who has been banned 38+ times. You rehash all the same old defeated arguments, so you being pwned is a foregone conclusion, no debating necessary..
Dave, in a world where Ad Hominem wasn't a logical fallacy, a person wasn't required to provide proof for their claims, and women found men with bingo wings attractive, you truly would be a winner, but in the real world, you're quite possibly the biggest loser there is on the internet, so as I said, go home.
Originally posted by IKP
Dave, in a world where Ad Hominem wasn't a logical fallacy, a person wasn't required to provide proof for their claims, and women found men with bingo wings attractive, you truly would be a winner, but in the real world, you're quite possibly the biggest loser there is on the internet, so as I said, go home.
Hmm biggest loser. One who can't debate, one who can't win debates, one who gets banned 38+ times to come back and get pwned some more. Thanks again for being the epitome of pitiful. 😄
Originally posted by IKP
Provide an argument, or go home.Force Mastery: Bane displays the ability to direct a lightning attack across an entire planet (this was PoD Bane, with only a few years of training, who then went on to refine his abilities for an entire decade), and use his powers on the sub-atomic level (that was his Ro2 self).
Force Power: Bane displays the strength to absorb a level of energy that was stated to have been able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan, and contain it rather than get torn apart by it. His power is also stated to be far greater than that of the entire BoD, a force strong legion of Force users.
Force Knowledge: He possesses the sources of knowledge of three great Lords of the Sith: Darth Revan, Freedon Nadd, and Belia Darzu, having studied extensively the knowledge bases of the first two.
Overall Lightsaber Ability: On equal footing with Kas'im, and before receiving the benefits of the orbalisk armour, he was able to completely dominate the battle, and this was against a foe that had mastered and spent decades perfecting every single form of the lightsaber, was extremely physically conditioned, and was strong enough in the Force that he was able to defend against an attack that would have instantly decimated his entire body. He was stated by the omniscient narrator to be the greatest swordsman of his age, and possibly the greatest there had ever been up until his time.
Speed in Combat: His displays of speed in the middle of combat are completely unparalleled, where he's been described to move far too quickly for powerful Force users (the likes of Kas'im) to see, and where he's been described to fight so quickly that his lightsaber appeared to be everywhere at once (from the perspective of someone as powerful as Darth Zannah).
Physical conditioning: Bane was described as a "mountain of muscle," and stood 2 metres tall.
Orbalisk armour: The orbalisks cover his entire body, with the exception of his head, and are immune to almost any type of physical damage there is (with lightning stated to be the only weakness), and enhance Bane's physical capabilities (via adrenaline) and strength in the Force (via darkside energies) to substantial degrees. In lightsaber combat, this enables him to focus nearly completely on offence without having to sacrifice defence, use his body to block attacks, and throw melee attacks without having to worry about his limbs being sliced off, making him a far more effective, and alien fighter.
Intelligence: Bane is consistently displayed to be a smart fighter, where he's shown to use his surrounding to his advantage, and make full use of the advantages he has over his opponents. Outside of combat, he's described as being a genius, and visionary, and his learning rate is shown to be more extreme than that of any other (fully mastering force lightning in under an hour for instance). Aside from all of that, his prowess in manipulation is described as being pretty phenomenal, similar to the likes of Darth Sidious and Darth Traya, as can be seen here:
Bane was a visionary, able to see far into the future. He understood how to exploit the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the Republic. he knew how to draw the eyes of the Jedi away from the dark side, while at the same time leading them down the first steps that would end in their complete annihilation. He could manipulate people, organisations, and governments, planting seeds that would lay dormant for years--even decades--before they burst forth. - Ro2, PG 288.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To recap, he's displayed the ability to defend against a planetary level of power, and his control of his powers is so great that he can use them with a planetary level scale, or alternatively a sub-atomic level scale. He was already an extremely capable lightsaber wielder even before obtaining the orbalisk armour, and with it, he's pretty much unstoppable. He's physically as impressive as it gets, and one of the more intelligent characters there's shown to be in SW Canon. He excels in all areas, and based on what we know, Luke doesn't possess a single advantage over him, and is far from as complete a combatant as Bane is.
So... as I said, Bane wins this one.
none of us doubts banes power or magnetism towards fanboys. as for the whole lightning encompassing a whole planet, i think that was when he had all of his sith lords together and their minds were linked so that all of their power was ravaging the planet.
the point is not how powerful bane is at this point, but how powerful luke is. luke is a god at this point in time, more powerful then anyone in history. as much as i dont like it, this is the eu so this is cannon
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
none of us doubts banes power or magnetism towards fanboys. as for the whole lightning encompassing a whole planet, i think that was when he had all of his sith lords together and their minds were linked so that all of their power was ravaging the planet.
Which I never denied, and highly irrelevant to my argument, given that though they were giving their power to Bane, he still needed the ability to absorb it ("it" being lightning) in the first place, and subsequently contain it and redirect it. His displays, in respect to the above three performances, were all achieved through his own merits, and that was the exact point I was making. I was never arguing that he was single-handedly ravaging the entire planet, or that he possessed that kind of ability at that point, but irregardless of all of that, his displays of ability during the ritual were absolutely titanic, and beyond anything shown by Luke at this point in time.
the point is not how powerful bane is at this point, but how powerful luke is. luke is a god at this point in time, more powerful then anyone in history. as much as i dont like it, this is the eu so this is cannon
Which is all obvious bullsh1t, given that he's already been surpassed by people in his very era (UnuThul, Lord Nyax, and Zonama Sekot), and hasn't a single showing that tops Darth Bane's, in any area. Luke simply possesses no advantage over the guy (with his force power, mastery, and lightsaber ability perhaps approaching the Sith Lord's), whereas Bane possesses some pretty considerable ones over the Jedi Master (intelligence, physical capabilities, force knowledge, and the orbalisk armour to name a few). Luke's outmatched, bottom line. I'd argue that even the considerably weaker PoD Bane could give him a good fight; Ro2 Bane wins, no question. His combat prowess is - at the very least - on par with Luke's, and he's vastly more intelligent, and receives the benefits of the orbalisk armour.
Originally posted by IKP
Which I never denied, and highly irrelevant to my argument, given that though they were giving their power to Bane, he still needed the ability to absorb it ("it" being lightning) in the first place, and subsequently contain it and redirect it. His displays, in respect to the above three performances, were all achieved through his own merits, and that was the exact point I was making. I was never arguing that he was single-handedly ravaging the entire planet, or that he possessed that kind of ability at that point, but irregardless of all of that, his displays of ability during the ritual were absolutely titanic, and beyond anything shown by Luke at this point in time.Which is all obvious bullsh1t, given that he's already been surpassed by people in his very era (UnuThul, Lord Nyax, and Zonama Sekot), and hasn't a single showing that tops Darth Bane's, in any area. Luke simply possesses no advantage over the guy (with his force power, mastery, and lightsaber ability perhaps approaching the Sith Lord's), whereas Bane possesses some pretty considerable ones over the Jedi Master (intelligence, physical capabilities, force knowledge, and the orbalisk armour to name a few). Luke's outmatched, bottom line. I'd argue that even the considerably weaker PoD Bane could give him a good fight; Ro2 Bane wins, no question. His combat prowess is - at the very least - on par with Luke's, and he's vastly more intelligent, and receives the benefits of the orbalisk armour.
No
Originally posted by IKP
Which I never denied, and highly irrelevant to my argument, given that though they were giving their power to Bane, he still needed the ability to absorb it ("it" being lightning) in the first place, and subsequently contain it and redirect it. His displays, in respect to the above three performances, were all achieved through his own merits, and that was the exact point I was making. I was never arguing that he was single-handedly ravaging the entire planet, or that he possessed that kind of ability at that point, but irregardless of all of that, his displays of ability during the ritual were absolutely titanic, and beyond anything shown by Luke at this point in time.
Which is all obvious bullsh1t, given that he's already been surpassed by people in his very era (UnuThul, Lord Nyax, and Zonama Sekot),
and hasn't a single showing that tops Darth Bane's, in any area[
Luke simply possesses no advantage over the guy (with his force power, mastery, and lightsaber ability perhaps approaching the Sith Lord's), whereas Bane possesses some pretty considerable ones over the Jedi Master (intelligence, physical capabilities, force knowledge, and the orbalisk armour to name a few).
Luke's outmatched, bottom line. I'd argue that even the considerably weaker PoD Bane could give him a good fight; Ro2 Bane wins, no question. His combat prowess is - at the very least - on par with Luke's, and he's vastly more intelligent, and receives the benefits of the orbalisk armour.
Firstly Lightsnake, why the hell are you replying to this and not the original argument I made? Is it, perhaps, because the overwhelming evidence originally provided makes it too hard for you to make a proper case for Luke, and so you feel the need to nitpick at a post that was in reply to someone else, in the hopes of having the original argument buried behind a discussion taken completely out of context? Well, if that is the plan, it's not going to work, and I'm going to go out of my way to include the original argument at the end of my every rebuttal until you respond to it.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Despite how Luke has torn engines from spaceships? Please.
This isn't even worth a reply. I post planetary level force displays, and this is what you come up with to counter? You're a joke. As if ripping engines out of space ships even somehow approaches the titanic level of ability displayed by Bane during the ritual.
Bane needed the entire BoD for that ritual.
Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy.
The parts of the ritual that I was describing were all achieved by Bane through his own merits. The power and mastery he displayed in absorbing and containing the lightning that the BoD generated, and the control he displayed in redirecting it were all achieved through his own ability. Sure, the BoD did give him their power to start off with, but this in no way detracts from the shown ability in receiving the power, containing it, and redirecting it, which was my exact point. He possesses that level of ability without the BoD.
Typical non sequitor
No, it's not a non sequitur, and perhaps when you learn how to properly spell and spot logical fallacies, people will take you seriously when you call them out (refer to the above if you wish to know how the pros do it). I didn't make a single false conclusion in my entire argument.
Lie. Luke beat the former handily, the second, and when did Zonama 'surpass' him?
Don't even go there Liarsnake, you're pretty much notorious on here for making sh1t up, on the constant.
1. Raynar Thul was able to completely take control of DN Luke's mind, indicating that his force abilities were well in excess of Skywalker's own. Luke was only able to compete with him after Raynar's power source (the Killik Colony) had been severely diminished. It's pretty clear that Luke was completely outclassed here.
2. Lord Nyax was able to completely mind dominate NJO Luke, as well as Mara Jade and Tahiri, all at the same time. It took all three of them to defeat him in combat, and even then, he was largely dominant, only being defeated after a surprise attack to his back by Tahiri.
3. When did Zonama 'surpass' him? Oh I don't know Lightsnake, could it have perhaps been ever since the living planet was able to use her force powers to knock NJO Luke and his entire Jedi party unconscious in the blink of an eye? No...
When Bane hacks through an entire army get back to me.
Wonderful logic Lightsnake, truly. So because Luke has done X and Bane hasn't, he's somehow undeniably better? Perhaps if you could actually manage to substantiate how the feat makes Luke more powerful than Bane, this might actually be logically acceptable, but you haven't, and as it stand, you're committing an argument from personal belief.
1. Luke was receiving the benefits of being in a powerful force meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time he performed mentioned feat, which was enhancing his awareness and overall ability by enormous degrees.
2. The Yuuzhan Vong's main advantage - the very attribute that made them so effective against Jedi, had been negated by the fact that Luke Skywalker was able to sense them in the Force at the time, largely lessening their ability in combat.
3. In a setting where Jedi can move at invisible speeds, where GL labels the average Jedi a "one-man-army," and low tier Sith like Darth Maul can single-handedly destroy the most powerful crime syndicate in the Galaxy, I fail to see the real impressiveness behind defeating armies of non force sensitives.
4. Either way, you've failed to substantiate your point, relying solely on your [ridiculous] opinion, which is what you'd call the argument from personal incredulity fallacy.
Oh, waaaait, poor Bane nearly got killed by eight non force sensitives
1. Put down the beer.
2. Please tell me what the hell you're talking about.
Intelligence? Where does Bane display this over Luke?
Originally posted by IKP
Intelligence: Bane is consistently displayed to be a smart fighter, where he's shown to use his surrounding to his advantage, and make full use of the advantages he has over his opponents. Outside of combat, he's described as being a genius, and visionary, and his learning rate is shown to be more extreme than that of any other (fully mastering force lightning in under an hour for instance). Aside from all of that, his prowess in manipulation is described as being pretty phenomenal, similar to the likes of Darth Sidious and Darth Traya, as can be seen here:Bane was a visionary, able to see far into the future. He understood how to exploit the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the Republic. he knew how to draw the eyes of the Jedi away from the dark side, while at the same time leading them down the first steps that would end in their complete annihilation. He could manipulate people, organisations, and governments, planting seeds that would lay dormant for years--even decades--before they burst forth. - Ro2, PG 288.
Physical capabilities? So he's moved fast enough to appear to wield 20 sabers at once?
1. You're committing a fallacy of division, listing a feat of speed, which would draw on both Luke's force mastery and physical capabilities, and attributing the impressiveness behind the entire feat to one of its parts (physical capabilities). As I said, you're ridiculous.
2. It was actually "fast enough he may as well have been wielding twenty sabers." Even if the statement wasn't subject to hyperbole, all it really equates to is that the narrator considered Luke's efficiency in using his lightsaber about twenty times that of an unknown measuring device. Now substantiate this, as all you're doing is -- again -- arguing from personal incredulity. I fail to see how it compares to moving at speeds completely invisible to the eyes of powerful Force users, moving so fast that time appeared to have frozen.
3. Again, this was achieved through a powerful force meld with Jacen and Jaina, where his abilities were being enhance by substantial degrees.
Force knowledge? As opposed to the guy who studied from the Tedryn Holocron, Arca Jeth's Holocron, Ood's holocron and dozens of other lost artifacts, including Palpatine's personal Sith stash, including the Telos holocron? Haha...
Your unorganised, unsubstantiated, unsourced, and mad ramblings might be okay for some, but not for me. Try structuring your point properly, and then give me some sources (with page numbers and quotes), and substantiate how this puts his knowledge above Bane's.
Orbalisks, OH NOES! Oh, wait...Emerald lightning. Oops!
Emerald lightning, OH NOES! Oh wait...lightsaber + Force shield + any other defence Bane might have learnt from from his vast source of Force knowledge. WHOOPS, YOU LOSE, SORRY!
Poor Baney's head is uncovered for starters.
Well at least now I know who to come to when I want my arguements nitpicked at.
Originally posted by IKP
Orbalisk armour: The orbalisks cover his entire body, with the exception of his head, and are immune to almost any type of physical damage there is (with lightning stated to be the only weakness), and enhance Bane's physical capabilities (via adrenaline) and strength in the Force (via darkside energies) to substantial degrees. In lightsaber combat, this enables him to focus nearly completely on offence without having to sacrifice defence, use his body to block attacks, and throw melee attacks without having to worry about his limbs being sliced off, making him a far more effective, and alien fighter.
As can be seen, a relatively insignificant detraction, and also a one sided assessment fallacy.
Secondly, Emerald lightning, fight over, sorry.
We all know you're not exactly the man when it comes to evaluating your points, Lightsnake, but this is absolutely ridiculous.
a) Prove that emerald lightning doesn't work exclusively on Yuuzhan Vong.
b) Prove that Bane's phenomenal force defence wouldn't prevent the lightning from hitting the orbalisks in the first place.