Wonder Woman (Standard Equipment only) vs Namor and Iron-Man (616 versions)

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
You call her getting knocked across a Solar System and using a (desperation) projectile on someone who thought they were fighting Doomsday a good showing and everything but getting her ass kicked?

You call getting knocked across the solar system by someone operating way above his normal level a good showing for him?

I appreciate the Captain Saveaho routine

Gosh, thanks for showing your true colors.

, I really do, but reality talks, reality, Wonder Woman is not that much stronger then Namor.

So his lifting feats that show how strong he is please?

Reality, Wonder Woman does not dance around opponents like Namor.

His feats of reflexes and speed that show that?

Reality, Wonder Woman can probably steal a win, maybe even two, from these two.

Yes if they only fight twice.

Originally posted by SupremeMan
You call getting knocked across the solar system by someone operating way above his normal level a good showing for him?

What?

Gosh, thanks for showing your true colors.

What?

So his lifting feats that show how strong he is please?

Various sub tossing feats.

His feats of reflexes and speed that show that?

Multiple bullet dodging and high speed barrel dodging feats.

Yes if they only fight twice.

So she has to steal both wins? In that case I agree, if they both fought twice she'd have to steal both of them since she is far outclassed here.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph

So basically, you don't take any fights seriously and argue powerset over actual character?

Read the rules. Yes powerset is usually taken as having precedence over fights for the simple reason that in a fight, characters usually have their power levels bent towards the middle to make for a more exciting fight. So you end up with two characetrs having an even fight when their showings in their own comics show that it should be a cakewalk for one of them.

Originally posted by SupremeMan
Read the rules. Yes powerset is usually taken as having precedence over fights for the simple reason that in a fight, characters usually have their power levels bent towards the middle to make for a more exciting fight.

So basically, posters on a message board know the powers of the character in question better then the actual character?

So you end up with two characetrs having an even fight when their showings in their own comics show that it should be a cakewalk for one of them.

Just so long as the actual fights amongst others don't show otherwise.

All right, got ya.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
What?

Gosh, thanks for showing your true colors.

What?

So his lifting feats that show how strong he is please?

Various sub tossing feats.

His feats of reflexes and speed that show that?

Multiple bullet dodging and high speed barrel dodging feats.

[b]Yes if they only fight twice.

So she has to steal both wins? In that case I agree, if they both fought twice she'd have to steal both of them since she is far outclassed here. [/B]

I cannot even describe how ridiculous this is. You are comparing someone whose strength is up to tossing submarines with someone whose strength feats are on the level of moving small moons and lifting mountains; someone whose speed feats are bullet dodging with someone whose speed feats are in the realm of blocking particles moving beyond lightspeed.

They are not even in the same class and your snide remarks may annoy but they change nothing. KMC lists her as Mid Herald level because she is and Namor as High metahuman level because he is. Another completely separate source lists him as a former Class 90, now Class 100 because he is and her as Class Incalculable (beyond any effective way to measure and above hs category) because she is.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
So basically, posters on a message board know the powers of the character in question better then the actual character?

So you end up with two characetrs having an even fight when their showings in their own comics show that it should be a cakewalk for one of them.

Just so long as the actual fights amongst others don't show otherwise.

All right, got ya.

I've seen fights where a guy well established to be in about the two-ton lifting range in stories overpowers a guy that was well-established to lift a good 70 tons. Some writers will pull any deus ex machina to make for an exciting fight or to make it go the way they want. Veteran debators have long realized that actual feats prove far more than fights. You can prove *anything* from a fight. You can prove exact opposite things from fights. But outside of fights, feats tend to be far more consistent.

Its not just this board. Most versus boards that I've seen have adapted this policy. On some, the thread would be closed by now with someone refusing to debate by the rules as much as you have.

Don't sit there and tell me he's in the same strength class as her and the best you can pull out is submarines. You can't back it up the claim he's on her level with feats.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
Wonder Woman #194 where you describe her moving faster then light blocking exploded particles of energy that are "beyond light"?

That's her dancing around someone?

When has she danced circles around Aquaman?
When has she danced circles around Circe?
When has she danced circles around Cheetah?
When has she danced circles around .....*insert DC character with *speed below Namor.

Circe is a low showing? 🤨 She's a skyfather level sorceress who fights the greek pantheon.

And Cheetah had her speed upgraded by Zoom.

It's clear you have no idea of the characters you are debating. 😂

Circe would stomp Iron-man and Namor.

I cannot even describe how ridiculous this is. You are comparing someone whose strength is up to tossing submarines with someone whose strength feats are on the level of moving small moons

With help. If I helped Superman pull a moon, do I get to call myself stronger then Namor?

and lifting mountains;

When and how big?

blocking particles moving beyond lightspeed.

"Hay guyz look

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/...son06/SCANZ.jpg

SCANZ

THIS ADDS CREDIBILITY TO MY ARGUMENT

NOW LET ME OUT OF CONTEXT IT FOR A SECOND

You know this Skrull had the combined power of the Illuminati combined with his own skrull correct?

This means he has Black Bolt's and Mr. Fantastic's ability to scale his power which is already at "Class 100,000" with Namor so this should put him at "Clas 100,000,000,000" (Reed altering his body structure to max out his raised Namor+Skrull level density combined with Black Bolt's ability to amp his 1 ton strength to CL 100 levels AND his own natural 1 ton str piled on).

In effect

Namor just snapped the neck of a Thanos level being and through him through a spike like a ragdoll

WHAT'S WONDER WOMAN DONE TO COUNTER THIS!"

They are not even in the same class and your snide remarks may annoy but they change nothing.

Portrayals in comics do. Comics say

They're in the same weight class.

KMC lists her as Mid Herald level because she is

Which is incorrect. But you also forget, KMC also lists Karate Kid, Apollo, Isis and Jack Hawksmoore higher then Wonder Man, Kang and Ultimo. List isn't 100%

and Namor as High metahuman level because he is.

At his dry levels.

Another completely separate source lists him as a former Class 90,

Dry, he's always been Savage Hulk level when wet.

now Class 100 because he is and her as Class Incalculable (beyond any effective way to measure and above hs category) because she is.

Meaning there in the same class.

When Zoom gave Cheetah speed she was not moving at ftl speeds, or light speeds as far as I remember.

Originally posted by SupremeMan
I've seen fights where a guy well established to be in about the two-ton lifting range in stories overpowers a guy that was well-established to lift a good 70 tons.

When?
Veteran debators have long realized that actual feats prove far more than fights.

Veteran debators have long realized that fights, portrayal and character prove far more then "feats"

You can prove *anything* from a fight. You can prove exact opposite things from fights. But outside of fights, feats tend to be far more consistent.

You can prove *anything* from a feat. You can prove exact opposite things from fights. But outside of feats, fights tend to be far more consistent.

Its not just this board. Most versus boards that I've seen have adapted this policy.

Its just this board. Most versus boards that I've seen have adapted this policy.

On some, the thread would be closed by now with someone refusing to debate by the rules as much as you have.

On some, the thread would be closed by now with someone refusing to see the obvious, as much as you have.

Don't sit there and tell me he's in the same strength class as her and the best you can pull out is submarines.

Don't sit there and tell me she's on a league of her own and the best you can pull out is her helping others.

You can't back it up the claim he's on her level with feats.

You can't back it up the claim that she's a level above his with feats AND fights.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
[B]You know this Skrull had the combined power of the Illuminati combined with his own skrull correct?

This means he has Black Bolt's and Mr. Fantastic's ability to scale his power which is already at "Class 100,000" with Namor so this should put him at "Clas 100,000,000,000" (Reed altering his body structure to max out his raised Namor+Skrull level density combined with Black Bolt's ability to amp his 1 ton strength to CL 100 levels AND his own natural 1 ton str piled on).

In effect

Namor just snapped the neck of a Thanos level being and through him through a spike like a ragdoll

WHAT'S WONDER WOMAN DONE TO COUNTER THIS!"

This in many ways proves the thing about fights. But she's decapitated a god if we go this route.
[/quote]

Portrayals in comics do. Comics say

They're in the same weight class.

Wrong.

Which is incorrect. But you also forget, KMC also lists Karate Kid, Apollo, Isis and Jack Hawksmoore higher then Wonder Man, Kang and Ultimo. List isn't 100%

Can't address them all but KK had a major upgrade.

now Class 100 because he is and her as Class Incalculable (beyond any effective way to measure and above hs category) because she is.[/i]

Meaning there in the same class.

Incorrect. Class 100 when wet. And Class 100 is not Class Incalculable. Class 100 on the scale is listed as roughly 100 tons to maybe several hundred. Class Incalculable jumps to thousands of tons or even more than thousands, beyond any way to measure.

Superhuman Class 100: vast superhuman strength enabling a being to lift well over 100 tons (the weight of a submarine or small building) (Namor)

Incalculable: vast superhuman strength enabling a being to lift thousands or even millions of tons (the weight of a mountain or more) (Wonder Woman)

Totally immeasurable: strength enabling a being to lift weights on a planetary scale (Silver Age Superman)

You can prove *anything* from a fight. You can prove exact opposite things from fights. But outside of fights, feats tend to be far more consistent.

You can prove *anything* from a feat. You can prove exact opposite things from fights. But outside of feats, fights tend to be far more consistent.

Okay I am arguing with an echo. Just repeat what I say but reverse it.

Except the comics support what I and just about every vs. forum says and they came to this conclusion by looking at the evidence. You're just digging in and refusing to budge without a glance at the facts. You're probably right. You're right and these other dozen places that have bothered to look at it are wrong.

This in many ways proves the thing about fights. But she's decapitated a god if we go this route.

God = subjective term. Thor is considered a God and Spectre's only considered God's Wrath.

Hulk has beaten Thor

Hulk > Spectre

Who is only God's Wrath.

Wrong.

Oh yes. Wonder Woman gets her ass kicked, it's a good showing, GIRL POWER! Namor gets his ass kicked in a similar method by the Marvel analog it's a bad showing, mostly because he's a man.

All there is to it really.

Can't address them all but KK had a major upgrade.

The heart virus or w/e?

Incorrect. Class 100 when wet. And Class 100 is not Class Incalculable.

No. Odin is class 100 as is Namor as is Wonder Woman as is Living Tribunal. Class 100 = 100 and beyond.

Originally posted by SupremeMan
You can prove *anything* from a fight. You can prove exact opposite things from fights. But outside of fights, feats tend to be far more consistent.

Prove Thanos is superior to Surfer using only feats.

Prove Thanos is stronger then Gladiator using only feats.

Prove Superman is stronger then Gladiator using only feats.

Prove Mangog is stronger then Thor using only feats.

Prove Validus is stronger then Wonder Woman using only feats.

So at this point you are just baldass admitting you are blatantly ignoring the rules of the board and that you can't back it up. Show me where he has strength or speed feats on her level.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
[B]This in many ways proves the thing about fights. But she's decapitated a god if we go this route.

God = subjective term. Thor is considered a God and Spectre's only considered God's Wrath.

Hulk has beaten Thor

Hulk > Spectre

Who is only God's Wrath.

Wrong.

Oh yes. Wonder Woman gets her ass kicked, it's a good showing, GIRL POWER! Namor gets his ass kicked in a similar method by the Marvel analog it's a bad showing, mostly because he's a man.

All there is to it really.

Can't address them all but KK had a major upgrade.

The heart virus or w/e?

Incorrect. Class 100 when wet. And Class 100 is not Class Incalculable.

No. Odin is class 100 as is Namor as is Wonder Woman as is Living Tribunal. Class 100 = 100 and beyond. [/B]

They have started making more distinctions because there are too many characters now that can lift a hundred tons or several hundred while still being far below other characters in strength feats.

Originally posted by SupremeMan
They have started making more distinctions because there are too many characters now that can lift a hundred tons or several hundred while still being far below other characters in strength feats.

No they haven't.

Class 100 = 100 and beyond.

Class 100 = Superman, Wonder Woman, Namor, The Living Tribunal, etc

The distinction comes between who's a high end, mid, low.

Superman would be considered high
Wonder Woman may be considered low-mid depending on who you ask
Namor is high-low

Tribunal falls outside this distinction because he's the tribunal

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
Prove Thanos is superior to Surfer using only feats.

Prove Thanos is stronger then Gladiator using only feats.

Prove Superman is stronger then Gladiator using only feats.

Prove Mangog is stronger then Thor using only feats.

Prove Validus is stronger then Wonder Woman using only feats.

Prove Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman using only feats. Oh wait, I can. And yes, he is.

Prove Superman is stronger than Black Adam using only feats. I cannot prove absolutely he is but I can prove he has better strength feats.

I cannot prove in the absolute sense that WW is stronger than Namor. I can only prove she has performed strength feats that far surpass his best ones.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
No they haven't.

Class 100 = 100 and beyond.

Class 100 = Superman, Wonder Woman, Namor, The Living Tribunal, etc

The distinction comes between who's a high end, mid, low.

Superman would be considered high
Wonder Woman may be considered low-mid depending on who you ask
Namor is high-low

Tribunal falls outside this distinction because he's the tribunal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jamdav86/Strength_level_(comics)