Originally posted by MutantMessiah As usual, this entire passage of text = pointless on your part. Nobody was denying that he was clearly receiving benefits from his uncontrollable fury; I explicitly made it clear that I knew this was the case throughout this thread. The point is, you're attempting to attribute the exact benefits that Luke Skywalker gained from using his rage to Obi-Wan Kenobi, with no proof that the effects would be the same, and thereby honouring by association (there's a reason it's a logical fallacy Gideon, it essentially means that your debating style sucks Publius penis).
I hear many schools across the nation are integrating Hooked-On-Phonics into the curriculum, improving the capabilities of students. Yet judging from your rebuttal, this was clearly just a rumor.
As for the comparison between Skywalker and Kenobi, I don't know how I can make it any more simple for you, but as I'm not destined to teach Special-Ed., I can hardly be expected to help educate someone who clearly belongs in the class: Skywalker and Kenobi both received similar advantages from drawing upon their rage; both of them experienced seriously increased melee and martial ability, enabling them to briefly dominate foes who are otherwise much stronger and more accomplished than they were at that time.
It's simple: for the very same reasons that force users with greater levels of untapped potential possess greater improvement rates, as can be seen constantly with figures such as Anakin Skywalker, Darth Bane, Luke Skywalker, and Exar Kun etc. No matter how temporary the improvement is when a being taps into their rage, the improvement is still of the same nature, meaning that Luke Skywalker would logically receive far greater benefits from doing so than the unremarkable Obi-Wan Kenobi, given his far greater level of untapped potential.
What is this shit? You haven't proven a damn thing. Kenobi and Skywalker still received the same type of advancement. When angered, both of them performed well in advance of their current level of proficiency. That was the point.
...and here you go again with the Strawman Argument (that would be another logical fallacy Gideon). Nobody claimed that Luke would be tapping into his entire untapped potential, so please quit making shot up.
No one is making "shot" up, Nebaris. What remains is a simple fact: Kenobi and Skywalker both received temporary, but extreme enhancements in combat ability. Skywalker was able to overpower an incredibly powerful and accomplished Sith Lord with decades of training and actual combat experience under his belt; Kenobi was able to dominate a Sith Lord whose "combat and Force-assisted abilities were pushed to the utmost", designed to be the "ultimate weapon" for history's most powerful Sith Master (a Sith Lord "fiercely demanding" of high standards), despite the fact that -- earlier -- he and Qui-Gon weren't able to make such a progression.
Perhaps =/= a question word. Perhaps one day you'll learnt that.
It was a rhetorical question, offering a truth, albeit in a sarcastic manner. Perhaps one day, you'll learn the difference (no 't'😉.
How so?The point is, you're treating the effects of one aspect of Vaapad and the effects of giving into your rage as being exactly the same, despite the different motives behind the mindsets, when you have no logical basis in doing so. Aside from that, you're being extremely vague in your argument, and failing to evaluate the significance of the mindset as part of what made Windu as good as he became.
Vaapad and the mindset it incorporates has been described as the "penumbra" of the dark side, a clear reference to the level of aggression that the user must use -- one thinks of the Galactic Emperor's demand that Luke "use his aggressive feelings" -- aggression of any variety is a distinct trait of a dark sider, which is one of the many reasons why Vaapad is so dangerous. It allows for an advantage in close quarters combat, clearly one of the reasons that Windu is regarded as one of the very best ever.
Again, your point means little until you can evaluate the significance of what you mentioned as part of how accomplished Mace Windu had become.
I did.
Would this be an example of the humour and wit that you're apparently so well known for? I'd suggest sticking to the copycat stuff Gideon, your original material seems to be getting giggles from one person, and one person alone, and I'll let you guess who that one person is.Spoiler:
Here's a hint: his name begins with a "D."
Nebaris, we can go back and forth on "whose funnier!" all night. Yet the vast majority of your 'wit' manifests itself as abnormally clunky, gangly, rough sentences, lacking any subtlelty or smoothness. I would suggest (suggestions are normally important when the person giving them is, which is an advantage you lack) sticking to the argument at hand, because the "Mr. P-Man Junior" remark killed whatever sense of wit you had.
The only time you've ever proven me wrong, Nebaris, is when I think you've hit rock bottom -- you always manage to find a lower place.
Is it "See how many Logical Fallacies you can commit" day in Kentucky or something? Seriously, your record's getting scarily close to Darth Sexy's and that's some serious shit. As usual, your comparison is false. With the incidents that you're referring to, Darth Sidious was risking his life based on his judgements of the motives behind the individuals, with which he had been using his masterful manipulative ability to be near fully in control of (not to mention that with the second incident, he knew that he could have simply returned into one of his clone bodies, s he had done before; meaning, you're essentially claiming that Sidious is notorious for something, with only one example to support that). That's a completely different ballgame to simply judging the martial capabilities of an individual, with which when you take into account the unpredictable result of having the mentioned individual enter a bloodthirsy rage, is a judgement with which Palpatine could never be quite so certain on.
a.) Leeland Chee retconned that statement in Dark Empire, Emperor Palpatine's first death was aboard the second Death Star.
b.) Palpatine trained Darth Maul from an infant to a young adult, Nebaris. Get with the ****ing program. This wasn't Anakin Skywalker or Count Dooku; Sidious was Maul's de facto parent and father figure. Jesus, your argument is practically nonexistent. One bullshit claim after another. It's plain as day, with Sidious's demanding training sessions, that he knew full well Maul's capability.
Now what you need to understand is that you originally formed the comparison, meaning it's up to you to substantiate it. I never undeniably made any firm claim, I was simply open to the possibility that Palpatine had in fact been in control the entire time, as it would seem unlikely that he would be genuinely laughing after having a situation truly reach out of his hands like it would have done. Either way, it's not my job to undermine your unsubstantiated points, though you do make it rather easy.
Now, what you need to understand is that -- especially on the subject of this session with Maul -- your entire argument is pure fabrication and ignorance. Palpatine raised Maul; he knew his capabilities as well as any person can be aware of another's. What you're "simply open" to is out of the question. Palpatine wanted Maul to give into his rage and attack him with the intent to kill, and he did. That is why, when all things settled down, Palpatine smirked. Mission accomplished.
Coming from the person who admits to someone having, and I quote "kick[ed your] ass across these forums?" Clearly we shall have to take whatever you say on the matter with a pinch of salt. Clearly indeed.
That would be by Advent. Not you. 😉
For your claim that Darth Maul's primary character trait is that he toys with his opponent? No, you didn't. Get to it.
Someone didn't even bother to read Shadow Hunter, I see.
Context.
Yes, we're all aware of it. Maul's incompetence doesn't even begin to register.
No, they're not. The fact that Kenobi was at such an early stage of his development, yet still be in a position of superiority over the Sith Lord, no matter how enraged he was, speaks a lot for a lack of ability on Maul's part.
You're either on drugs, or this is an unfortunate side effect of your parents' obvious use of them (I suspect this is one of the things that led to your birth; drugs typically completely **** up one's judgment). Maul tooled both Qui-Gon and Kenobi. Do you get that? The TPM novelization makes it clear: Maul > Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan; Qui-Gon > Obi-Wan. And Maul decimated Qui-Gon, individually. Is it so hard to put two and two together to get four?
Irrelevant Misdirection, Logical Fallacy. Jedi, of the peaceful early PT era, weren't respected for their martial prowess, making this irrelevant in this context.
George "The PT is the prime of the Jedi" Lucas > you, Nebaris.
That's great, and this is the same guy who was stated to be far past his prime, and who has no proven great ability in combat whatsoever.
TPM novelization disagrees with you, Jinn was noted to be one of the most capable swordsmen that a Jedi Master had seen in over "four hundred years".
Well done, you managed to prove that Maul performed better than a past-his-prime Jedi Master with no proven skills (your assertion that he was accomplished, in this context, lacks evidence, and how respected he was certainly doesn't change that).
No, I've managed to prove that Maul performed better than a Jedi Master with heralded abilities with a lightsaber.
It's possible that you might have drawn such a conclusion from descriptions of the fight, but your original argument was that Bondara sacrificing himself in order to destroy Maul implies that he was being dominated. You've yet to explain how that is the case. At best, all that we can know for sure was that Anoon Bondara believed that the explosion caused from the destruction of the speeder bike stood more of a chance of destroying Maul than he did, in combat. That's all. That in no way necessarily implies domination. You're reaching a false conclusion (that would be another logical fallacy there).
I reached a logical conclusion by pointing out that Bondara opted for suicide and that he was being "forced back" the whole time. 😉
Lol. By people on these forums? News to me. If anything, you're occasionally witty, but even then, it's - at best - copy-cat material, and - at worst - sh1t that you try way too hard on that usually comes out odd anyway. In terms of your funny factor, I've personally yet to see it. Perhaps it would come out more if you didn't try so hard at being clever, and tried harder at identifying the things that people naturally find amusing.
Once again, Nebaris, we can go back and forth from here to eternity. The difference is that the only person amused by your antics is you. As for your debates, well, if we take those into consideration, you elicit more laughter from the world than I ever could. 😉
No, it would be self ownage if I referred to him as such on the constant, as that really is how frequently he uses the same sh1t over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.Though, I will say I have gotten way too repetitive in one aspect: making you look like a idiot. It happens constantly. Now, and I'm not baiting you when I say this, is this actually the 47th consecutive time you've been owned by the N-Man?
Nebaris, you refer to him as that all the time. Seriously, now, it's time to take out the syringe and check yourself into rehab. It might have been too late for your parents, but you still have a (limited) chance of making a recovery. By the way, your final punch line? Sorely lacking in anything approaching humor. If you want to really crack someone up, you just stick to the debate. Nothing funnier than you trying to reason. 😉
lol yea...
seriously thou the reason they have turned this forum into a deull of words is that this is so evidently bastillas battle that there is no reason to debate for maul...
I think you need to use "form zero" with your hasty little typing fingers... quit just blabbing off on who's the best debater. maybe on vs.... Gideon vs Darth Sexy? then you can fight all you want and stay on topic... and post random insulting images...
oh and btw, still bastillas fight. Maul was overpowered by two jedi who had been trained in more of "wisdom" then combat. these jedis were embassadors and not practiced for war as much as maul who had been expecting to run into some jedis. Jinn and Wan were probably at this time training to settle disputes, negotiate treaties, and use their presence and their lightsabers to keep the peace. they were not at all ready for dueling and were more using their abilities when they did get into combat for deflecting bullets.
it is important to note the death of Jinn in this battle but still, where maul was fighting nightsiders and getting "owned by no names" (or whatever im not saying that he was a no name) and dueling, the jedi were practicing way more in the ways of the toungue and the peacemaker then the ways of war.
bastilla was a hardened jedi who had unique abilities and power against lightsabers as well as blaster bullets.
dont quote me as everything I have said is backed by the movie and the comic books and the game, and dont contradict me because I have not stated one mistruth. I totally believe that bastilla is more powerful then obi wan and qui gon in the ways of war, but maybe no much so powerful in the ways of peace...
when reading novels and the like it is important to note the nature of the jedi. when it says in the rots novel "yoda was the most powerful enemy the darkness had ever known" you should take into context that he was very wise and might have been able to stop alot of noobs from falling to the darkness. maybe some of his power was in stopping sith before they became sith.
Once again, I have not stated a mistruth so dont quote me or contradict me please, unless I have. if it is a matter of opinion, please do not. if it is a matter of me saying something that is not cannon as a fact, please do contradict me.
My supreme belief about the star wars universe that holds me from debating all day with you about what is and isnt cannon, is that its all Fiction... Its all made up... none of it happenned.... remember that as you debate....
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Can you not read??
He's already made his points.For myself i'm unsure. Anyone who can keep up with Revan must be good. But Maul's good too....
Actually, the interesting thing is that he's yet to prove or disprove a damn thing. He seemingly has no understanding of the concept of canon. So while he is free to lecture on the fact that "it is fiction" it does not absolve him of his apparent ignorance.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
lol yea...oh and btw, still bastillas fight. Maul was overpowered by two jedi who had been trained in more of "wisdom" then combat. these jedis were embassadors and not practiced for war as much as maul who had been expecting to run into some jedis. Jinn and Wan were probably at this time training to settle disputes, negotiate treaties, and use their presence and their lightsabers to keep the peace. they were not at all ready for dueling and were more using their abilities when they did get into combat for deflecting bullets.
it is important to note the death of Jinn in this battle but still, where maul was fighting nightsiders and getting "owned by no names" (or whatever im not saying that he was a no name) and dueling, the jedi were practicing way more in the ways of the toungue and the peacemaker then the ways of war.
bastilla was a hardened jedi who had unique abilities and power against lightsabers as well as blaster bullets.
are these not good points? Maul was owned two people whos main proffeciency was not with the lightsaber, while bastilla has owned many whos main profeciency was.
Just because your a "jedi master" doesnt make you anything special with the lightsaber. Most Jedi masters during peacetime are chosen for their wisdom and peacekeeping abilities, not their combat skills.
Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, the interesting thing is that he's yet to prove or disprove a damn thing. He seemingly has no understanding of the concept of canon. So while he is free to lecture on the fact that "it is fiction" it does not absolve him of his apparent ignorance.
therefor gideon, as I had already posted those points it is you who cannot read. I have also posted about bastillas ability to influence the outcome of a battle (CANNON) Bastilla overcame two powerful jedis who had gone through alot of battle experience and practice (CANNON) Mauls death from two "NEGOTIATOR JEDI" (CANON)....
go buy "Hooked on Phonics" and come back and start debating again.
umm... hello? I just said how Jinn was one of the best in the order. The jedi dont just mention their skill and power by blade but by negotiating and wisdom.... And the darkside isnt any stronger. Obi was a padawan, maul got overconfident, yes, but he was still killed by stupidity and an angry padawan.
THE Darkside isnt any stronger
Luke: is the darkside stronger?
Yoda: No! quicker, easier it is...
also, qui gonn and obi wan were using weak abilities. this quote from WIKIpedia shows this point as observing the fight would:
One basis for the acrobatic nature of Ataru is that lightsabers can damage with brushing, light strokes, rather than hard chopping motions. Ataru practitioners are at a great disadvantage if fighting in a small area. This weakness became apparent in The Phantom Menace, when Qui-Gon Jinn was killed by Darth Maul in a confined space. Yoda, however, practiced Form IV with such speed that, when coupled with his small size, it left every point on an opponent's body open to attack while more than adequately defending himself.
After Darth Maul's defeat on Naboo, Obi-Wan Kenobi decided to perfect his practice of Soresu since Qui-Gon Jinn, Kenobi's mentor and Form IV Ataru master, fell against Darth Maul.[13] By the time of Revenge of The Sith, Obi-Wan Kenobi is acknowledged as the master of Soresu by Mace Windu in the novelization.
this shows, as well as just observing the movie does, that the jedi were also cramped and their fighting style was greatly hindered when maul killed them.
SO qui-gon and Obi wan