Darth maul vs Dark jedi bastilla

Juhani, who possessed legendary abilities with the force (Source: The Essential Guide to the Force; she was kept on record for it, and stood out among the entire Order's history), and Jolee Bindo, who's accomplishments were spoken of in awe by historians during his era (the historian of the party lists "the adventures of Jolee Bindo" as one the greatest pieces of Jedi History there was). They were clearly impressive Jedi, and Bastilla completely dominated them both at once, effortlessly. I don't care if you don't find it impressive; it's a feat not often repeated and above anything shown by Darth Maul.

Where did Bastilla completely dominate them? Really. She did hit them with a force stun. A force stun is not affected by the force power of the target but only by the willpower of the victim. One might of course suggest that Juhani and Jolee were not that eager to actually attack or even kill Bastilla and maybe a little bit surprised by their former friend to use such measures against them.

And there we have it again: Your inability of interpretation. The fact that Bastilla was capable of putting Juhani and Jolee into a force stun means what? May I remind you that Malak performed exactly the same action againt Revan and Bastilla. Despite the fact that we know he's not as powerful as Revan? Hmm. Following your logic and having a look at RotS. Sidious hits Yoda with lightning and knocks him out. Sidious > Yoda. And then Yoda gets up and uses a force push on Sidious, sending the Sith Lord flying through the room. But that would mean that Yoda > Sidious now. Urm. As it seems, you can't determine the force strength of a character by looking who managed to hit whom with a force attack.

And even if that would be possible. Juhani had legendary abilities in the force? During the time when Bastilla force stunned her? Urm. Wonder where that comes from – because Juhani was just another Padawan. And Jolee? It's nice that his story was a great piece of Jedi History. Wonder how that means that he was an uber powerful force user. Oh right. It doesn't. Yet both characters show some lacking willpower (which would actually matter here), and in Juhani's case you might want to add a nice lack of discipline. So I still don't see where Bastilla's little action can be used as a basis to argue that the girl was especially powerful.

In a setting where padawans can move at invisible speeds, I fail to see how this is especially impressive.

Invisible speeds. By a padawan? Where? Of course Kenobi uses force speed to escape from the droidekas in the beginning of the TPM. Yet he still doesn't reach the speed of an air speeder. Not to mention that this was the TPM era. I haven't seen people "disappearing in a blur" in the KotoR era. Did you see something like that?

If you're gonna to lie, make sure the very comic book panels that prove you wrong aren't posted in the exact thread that you're posting in. As can be see on the first page of this thread, Darth Maul falls to the ground, groaning, and only just manages to lean up and slice Mighella in half. He didn't walk straight through it.

Even then, I'd question exactly what skill the feat speaks for. For all we know, it was his physical strength that enabled him to resist the lightning's effects for so long.

Irregardless of how he resisted it, the fact that he failed to even block the attack originally speaks for a lack of reaction time on his part, and given that we know nothing of this unimportant Nightsister's strength in the force, there's nothing to suggest that the potency of the attack would have been anything special. It would be absurd to argue that he'd be able to do the same to the lightning of someone as powerful as Bastilla.

If you're going to lie, make sure the very comic book panels that prove you wrong aren't posted in the exact thread that you're posting in. As can bee seen on the first page of theis thread, Darth Maul first owns her in usual combat and then jumps on her to kill her – yet is caught by her force lightning mid-air. And he simply "resists" it, comes back on his feet (he leans up? WTF?) and slices her in half.

How should he have reacted – while being in mid-air? Absurd statement. His physical strength enabled him to resist the lightning? That's why it's this resist that makes Mighella realize what Maul is? A Sith...! Obviously it was Maul's strength in the force that allowed him to resist the force lightning attack.

And right. Because we don't know anything of the Nightsister's strength in the force, she must be weak. Of course.

a) She is one of the Witches of Dathomir – a group that consists of force users only since 600 BBY. People that practice their combat abilities and force abilities every day since they need them to actually survive.

b) She belongs to the Nightsisters. Those happen to be a Dark Side using sect in the society of Dathomir. And as those, they are opposed by all other clans on Dathomir and have engaged in a nice civil war against them.

I wonder how somebody living in a society that consists of force users only, who train their skills in force abilities and combat every day and who were involved in a war against other people who do the same can not have a considerable amount of strength in terms of force abilities and actual combat skill. Especially since she was "skilled in the use of the Dark Side". Which can't be said about Bastilla at all, as she canonically performed – wait – zero Dark Side attacks.

Simply saying as much doesn't make it so. Provide proof. Even if what you're saying is the case, her force displays suggest a level of ability far beyond such a rank.

Your lack of knowledge isn't my problem. And her "force displays" are limited to a single force stun and her Battle Meditation – with the latter being utterly useless in a 1on1 confrontation with Maul while the first doesn't mean anything. Yay.

Overpowering two impressive Force users at once, effortlessly. It's a level of force ability far beyond what Maul's ever shown to do, who's logically not even on the level of the beings that Bastilla owned. He has literally nothing going for him.

You've yet to substantiate that Juhani or Jolee where impressive in terms of force power. Then you've to substantiate that they, in this particular situation, did even defend themselves actively. You can't do both. So stop boring me to death with your absurd interpretations of things happening.

Please, don't be ridiculous.

Everything points to him being unable to defend against the attack, in that situation. He had been engaging Mighella in a weapons battle, with the aim to kill her. There would be no reason to simply let her attack hit him, even if we were to go by the premise that he knew he would have been able to resist it. There would have been no purpose in doing so, and it would have delayed the battle even longer, jeopardising his current objetive (killing Alexi Garyn, who was in the process of fleeing the battle), not to mention it would have caused him unnecessary pain, and would have been just a silly move in general.

Dude. He disarmed her, jumped to kill her and while he is in the air, Mighella directs force lightning on him. What should he have done against this while being mid-air? He then drops on the ground and is back on his feet immediatly to kill her – which is the reason why she asks "How can you resist..."

Another stupid attempt to downplay Maul. It's getting boring.

The fact that he was focused on Obi-Wan at the time, yet still was caught off guard by such a situation is exactly what speaks badly for his reaction time. He was focused on his enemy, yet his precognition and enhanced reflexes still failed him in such a situation. Just like when he was hit by Mighella's lightning attack. The guy's clearly lacking in the reaction speed department.

Lmao. Sure. I'd like to see how he should have reacted. Really...Obi-Wan comes flying out of the pit (when Maul thought he was beaten) and had a lightsaber in hand (when Maul had him disarmed already). Really. I don't know anybody who would have suvived in the very same situation – since Obi-Wans move was simply unpredictable.

You haven't even supported him having any special kind of reaction speed, and his actual speed is irrelevant here.

Urm. Let me quote Shadow Hunter:
"Maul glanced at the doorway. A tall human female in shell spider silk armor stood there, aiming a pair of blasters at him.

Maul realized that this was the same being he had sensed following him earlier. His lips twitched in annoyance. He tried a quick mental probe, but the bounty hunter-for surely that was what she was-was too sharp, her attention too focused, to fall for mind tricks.

Maul considered his options. He would never reach his lightsaber fast enough, even as quick as he was. He might be able to dodge a single blast, maybe even two, but hemmed in as he was in this small cubicle against a woman who could likely put a dozen bolts into the air from two semiautomatic blasters in half a second, he would have to have a distraction.

Near his feet lay the Trandoshan's blaster. It would serve nicely.

Using his control of the Force, Darth Maul gripped the weapon in a dark tentacle of energy and hurled it at the bounty hunter's face, hard.

The woman was fast. She dodged the blaster, firing a bolt at it. She missed and recovered, but the distraction had served its purpose. Before the weapon had bounced off the wall and landed on the floor, Maul had the lightsaber in his grasp. He thumbed on both blades as the next blaster bolt and half a dozen more came his way in rapid succession. The Sith apprentice's hands were a blur as he let the dark side take him over completely, giving in to its power and allowing it to control and manipulate him.

Blaster bolts struck the lightsaber's spinning blades and were deflected into the walls, the ceiling, the floor. No time to aim, though a bolt or two did hit the bounty hunter without apparent effect. Her armor was apparently state-of-the-art.

The bounty hunter dropped her useless blasters and reached for one wrist, where she wore a rocket launcher. The fool! Maul thought grimly. If a rocket exploded in here, it would kill them both!

There was no time to try to stop her. Maul slipped along the lines of the Force, moving at unnatural speed as he spun toward the nearest wall, a cheap plastic panel, twirling the lightsaber in a cutting pattern. The plastic shredded easily before the blades' superhot plasmatic edges, and Maul ran through the wall, leapt over a chair in the next room-which, fortunately for its tenants, was deserted at the moment-and stabbed downward with one blade of his lightsaber, shearing a ragged oval in the floor. He dropped through the ceiling of the cubicle below just as the rocket struck the wall of the Neimoidian's room and exploded."

So let me point that out once more. Lhinn (the head huntress) walks into the room with her blasters aiming at Maul. Now before she, a trained an experienced head huntress, can even pull the trigger, Maul has tried to probe her mind, thought of his options, found a way to distract her, force pushed the blaster at her and had his lightsaber force pulled into his hand before the second bolt is fired from her semi-automatic blasters. He then deflects half a dozen blaster bolts at close range from the two semi-automatic weapons. After that he cuts through a wall, moves through the hole, jumps over a chair, cuts through the bottom and drops down before the head huntress has pulled the trigger of her rocket launcher and the rocket has hit the wall in the small room.

The latter action is descriped from the view of the head huntress like that: "Desperate, she reached for her wrist launcher. Her only chance was to hit the horned one squarely and hope that the explosion would be contained enough by the other's body to allow Lihnn to survive. But as she triggered the launcher the tattooed man seemed to disappear in a blur. All of a sudden there was a hole in the wall where an instant ago it had been solid."

As can be seen. She doesn't even see Maul moving. He simply "disappears" and the next thing she notices is the hole in the wall which has appeared "in an instant". I'd say that Maul is quite faster than most Jedi – so I also don't get why his actualy speed (in a combat situation) shouldn't be an issue here. I've never seen Bastilla performing something even close to that display of speed.

The Master-Apprentice relationship is shown to be completely different with those you just mentioned and that of the Ro2 Order. With Exar and Ulic, and Revan and Malak, all that the title really did was sort the stronger one from the weaker. It assigned superiority. The Master was never shown to have been teaching the apprentice in any shape or form. Nothing indicates that the apprentice titles were of the same nature, and would be considered as such by an omniscient source,

Once more: Your personal interpretation of the matter is worthless. Every being referred to as "Sith apprentice" can be counted in here. From the days of the Ancient Sith up to the time of TPM.

Either way, the point is that there's nothing to suggest that the source in question (the Ultimate Visual Guide) considered the apprentices you just mentioned as the same sort of apprentice as Darth Maul was, thus we have no reason to include them, or any other apprentice outside of the Ro2, in the comparison.

Which would still be 1000 years filled with Sith with the only person excluded being Bane himself.

No, not Sidious, or Plaguies, as we know that they became Masters, and thus wouldn't be thought of as apprentices.

I have to remind you once more: You don't dictate canon within the SW universe. For all we know all Sith apprentices before Maul became masters. How silly would a statement be that pratically says that Maul, (who is the only being we know of counting as "apprentice" according to your interpretation) was one of the deadliest apprentices (title only reffering to Maul himself according to you) ever to be trained. Right. It would be utter nonsense. Therefor your interpretation is nonsense.

First this limitation to the Ro2 Order is stupid because of the "ever" contained in the statement, which would mean "through the entire history up to that point". Then of course Maul would be the only "apprentice" that your interpretation allows – meaning that this statement would compare him to himself only. Great interpretation indeed.

As for Zannah, for all we know, she may have become a Master as well, so we can't include her in the comparison either.

See above. Your reasoning is stupid beyond belief.

Not if the statement was given from the perspective of looking at every single Sith Lord of the Order, individually, and at the highest rank within the order that they ever achieved, separating the Masters from the Apprentices, and then including only the apprentices left over. Which is all that you can definitely gauge from the quote.

You're again trying to enforce your little interpretation on the statement. That statement would be useless interpreting it like you do because the only Sith apprentice we know that didn't become a master so far would be Maul himself. You can accept that or come back at me with making up random numbers. I could as well assume that all Sith Lords before Sidious and Plagueis dumbed one apprentice a week and there must have been 10,000 Sith apprentices over the time span of 1000 years before Bane. That, of course, would be bullshit equal to the stuff you're producing here but simply suiting my argument better. Or in other words: I would attempt to "debate" like you do, punk.

Prove that the training we see wasn't exclusive to Maul, and the training that all the Sith in the Ro2 went through The fact that Bane's original intent was for the Sith to focus more on stealth than combat prowess, and the fact that several sources state that Sidious went out of his way to make Maul the perfect weapon, would indicate that the training was exclusive to Maul, and he alone (just to reiterate, I was using the quote to undermine the general level of training in the Ro2 itself, not Maul's exclusive training).

Oh my. To focus more on stealth doesn't mean that you will drop all your skills in the combat department. And once more your interpretation is utter nonsense. To train somebody like Sidious did with Maul, Sidious logically must have received compareable training before – otherwise he couldn't have taught Maul in the manner he did. And that means that Plagueis (who trained Sidious) also received similar training...and so on, and so forth – back to the days of Bane himself.

Just like with the above, given that Maul was a Sith Lord of the Ro2 during the time where they were ready to emerge from hiding, the same rules don't necessarily apply to him. Again, to reiterate, my point was addressed to the Sith of the Ro2 in general, substantiating the idea that the Order was logically less impressive than most.

We already know that the Sith became more powerful over that 1,000 years. We also know that their amount of force knowledge did increase. We also know that they were still trained in combat. I wonder what would make them less impressive there. In terms of personal skill, Maul is already more impressive than most beings that called themselves "Sith Lords" in the past, so is Sidious. The Ro2 Order was just less impressive in terms of numbers but that's it.

Don't be silly. Based on the evidence on hand, it can be logically concluded that the Ro2 Order was generally lacking in the combat prowess department based on its philosophies and such. As for the quote, all that you can definitely get from it is that Maul was among the most powerful of the weaker bunch of the entire Order (likely numbering in the tens). The quote's worthless, bottom line.

Fist: I'm wondering why the entire Ro2 Order is the topic now. You've dictated yourself that Maul would be (no matter what) an exception to the rule in terms of training because the Sith left their ways of stealth. Following your own stupid take on the matter, it's completely irrelevant how "impressive" that order was in terms of combat prowess.
Second: I still don't see what philosophy you are talking about – nor do I see where the Sith that we know did lack in the combat prowess department.
Third: Another nice attempt to talk Maul down by tossing in random speculations about the Ro2 Sith which, partitially, do blatantly contradict SW canon. But once more: Nice attempt to argue, punk.

Your shoddy attempt at Ad Hominem doesn't change the fact that Bastilla's displayed power beyond the vast majority of known Force users, and power far beyond that of Maul.

Your mindless attempts to interprete source material doesn't change the fact that Bastilla is just a Padawan with one special gift. Aside of that you can't "attempt" an Ad Hominem. And please - for god's sake - if you don't know, what a term means, don't use it. I'm attacking the stupidity of your "arguments" and not the pathetic excuse for a trained monkey making them.

You're arguing from personal belief. Just because you think a certain number of incidents makes for a relatively large amount of action, that doesn't make it so. Now substantiate your point.

No. I'm arguing from factual evidence presented in various sources. The Jedi were the "peacekeepers" of the Galaxy. Millions of planets. And they did participate in almost every conflict happening in that territory. Now look at just our planet. We always have a war going on somewhere on Earth – yet we do live in a time of relative peace. If you want to compare it to the Cold War or, even better, to the World Wars.

The same is the case for the SW universe. They do live in a time of relative peace, in the sense that there is no galaxy spanning conflict going on. Yet still they have enough trouble to settle throughout the entire Galaxy to have people like Mace Windu be recognized as legendary combatants, and the Jedi recognized as powerful warriors even in the most arkward sectors of the Republic. And because of that they still had to focus on combat skills to a certain extend since they wouldn't have been able to do their job properly without doing so. Which would be apparent to you if you would read the sources dealing with the time just before TPM. Those people had a damn lot of combat skills – despite living in an era of relative peace.

I'd like to see some proof. Also, please substantiate what this means in respect to the amount of action that the Jedi of the time faced. For all we know, Mace Windu may have been involved in one incident, that involved minimal action, yet garnered a high level of fame for a completely different reason. Your conclusion is beyond being narrow minded.

Excuse me. The only person narrow minded here is you. Why? You simply lack the most common knowledge about the SW universe – yet that doesn't keep you away from arguing SW topics with an attitude indicating that you yourself think you do know what you're talking about. And that – mind you – isn't the case.

Just to quote the PotJ Sourcebook on the Republic era:
Most citizensof the Republic in this era regard the Jedi as heroes and legends, part sage and part superhero. Capable of incredible feats of combat and legerdemain, they have the wisdom of the ancients at their disposal.

As you can see, the Jedi during that time do possess a quite high reputation among the citizens of the Republic. Certainly not all of them could live up to that ideal. Yet that pictures speaks volumes of what the Jedi have archieved in the days after the Ruusan reformation.

Nobody's saying that the Jedi never faced any action of any sort, Nai, but the point is, given the relative level of peace that the era held, it's unlikely that the Jedi of the times were trained as effectively in combat than that of past Orders. The fact that "the diplomat's style" was the most commonly used lightsaber form of the time should tell you that.

And again: Nonsense.
You simply ignore the fact that those Jedi – unlike all Jedi before that era – were all trained from infancy on. That gives them 1-2 decades of training advantage over almost every major player before the Ruusan reformation. Than I have to ask why the Jedi of former eras would be better trained in terms of combat? To remind you (once more): The Jedi of Kun's time also haven't seen a major conflict for 1000 years. Why would they train their students for combat action more than the PT era people? Then after Revan you have another 1000 years before the Sith resurface again. The only era that would have been in need to train Jedi for conflicts was the era in the 1000 years before the Battles of Ruusan because they lived in a permanent conflict with the Sith forces of the BoD.

That the "diplomat's style" (which is form VI – a blend of all other styles except VII) was the most commonly used one tells you what? That those Jedi did focus more on their skill in terms of force mastery, diplomacy or anything else but the lightsaber technique? Well. So what? The regular people in the other era's don't seem to be great in either of that departments, if you want to talk about the average Jedi Knight. And for the protagonists of the respective eras, none of that statements does even apply. So why actually bringing them up? Trying to downtalk characters again because of having no arguments? Oh yeah. Completely new tactic on your side...

Right, and you've listed those... Constantly, but have failed to substantiate the number each and every time. Do that, or drop the point.

In the century just before the PT you have:
The Melida/Daan Civil war (25 listed Battles) – ended 59 years before TPM
The Mandalorian Civil war (3 listed Battles) – started 28 ended 2 years before TPM
The Stark Hyperspace War (5 listed Battles) – 12 years before TPM
The Kol Huro Unrest (1 listed Battle) – 12 years before TPM
The Yinchorri Uprising (9 listed Battles) – 1 year before TPM

The Stark Hyperspace War and the Ynchorri Uprising are the ones particulary interessting here. You can see Jedi jumping into entire armies of opponents and actually win. The same can of course be seen during the Clone Wars. Nice how that Jedi which are – according to you – not so well trained in terms of combat, do actually survive more action that almost anybody of earlier Jedi Orders.

Even if you take the highest form of canon only – the movies. Have a closer look at AotC. The Jedi are attacked by literally thousands of droids (while their own forces in the arena where limited to maybe 30 or 50 combatants) and after 30 Minutes of actual combat you have a dozen of Jedi left while several hundreds of droids have been destroyed. If you have a closer look at the background action shown in AotC you will notice single Jedi taking it up with 10 or more battle droids. I mind point out that the Jedi in the TOTJ time had visible problems fighting against single combat droids that were out of date pretty much in comparison to the droids in the PT era. Wonder how you can explain that to me.

As IKC once pointed out, the Jedi of old wore battle armour, whereas the PT jedi wore just plain old robes.

Wow. That translates into having better lightsaber training or greater combat skills in general how exactly? Especially considering that they, despite wearing that nice armor, are getting killed in more stupid ways than almost any PT Jedi.

The most commonly practised lightsaber form during the PT times was the diplomat's form.

Which is neither used by Obi-Wan nor by Qui-Gon Jinn. So why even bring that point in to that debate?

According to Mace Windu himself, the Jedi of the time were peace keepers, and not warriors.

Urm. No. According to Mace Windu the Jedi are peace keepers and not soldiers, referring to a possible role as "army of the republic". He said that they can't take that role which doesn't mean that they don't posess any combat skills.

They were clearly not battle hardened by any interpretation of the term (bare in mind, everything I've been saying is in reference to the time before the Clone Wars, given that we are dealing with TPM characters, here), especially in comparison to Jedi before them.

In general? Well. Doesn't matter as we're dealing with Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi here. And both have seen actually enough battle action (see Jedi Apprentice novels, Stark Hyperspace War / Ynchorri uprising comics).

Secondly, nobody denied that they clearly faced action. The point is, not so much in comparison to the Jedi before them.

In comparison to what Jedi before them? Once more: We're again dealing with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon here and they have seen more action before TPM than most Jedi before them (canonically) did. That comes from the fact that we have a nice load of material about them that we don't pocess about other Jedi of the PT era or other eras. Your attempt to go for a generalization is useless here.

And once more. The person in question here is Bastilla who's canonical experience in terms of actual lightsaber fights is limited to what? A fight with Malak, that she lost? A fight with Revan, that she lost? He general combat experience? Since she was on her ass using Battle Meditation most of the time I'd say her actual combat skills are rather low. Especially in comparison to Darth Maul who was a "ruthless killer" already when he reached his adolescence and was just send out to assassinate persons (in some cases even small armies) by Sidious.

The main difference would be the mentality of the different Orders. The fact that The PT jedi didn't view themselves as warrior, and that the most practised form was Niman, and the fact that the TotJ Jedi wore battle armour, the PT Jedi were clearly less focused on combat.

That's not even mentioning the state of the Jedi just prior to the Ruusan Reformations, who had been at war with the Sith for an entire millennium.

The TOTJ era also haven't seen any major conflict in the past 1000 years before Kun. The Jedi Code as it is in the PT dates back to that time (Odan Urr). And the TOTJ era Jedi were focused on combat? Right...

Here we have Arca Jeth telling Ulic that the Jedi are there to "bring peace" and that he should use his lightsaber as a "last resort" only. So much for the combat orientation. He later even lectures Ulic on why you should win battles with the force and not with your lightsaber.

Armor? Oh yeah...

Look how heavily armored people like Sylvar, Oss Willum and Nomi Sunrider moved into battles. Looks like plenty of armor there. Aww...not really. I have to point out, that the Jedi even then were still mostly wearing robes or compareable protective stuff, with most of the "armor" seen inside the respective comics consists of shoulder pads. Great "armor" that is.

Not to mention that we're only speaking about Bastilla and (aside of that) Malak and possibly Revan and the other KotoR people here. Care to point out whom of them did wear real "armor" (talking about leather, metal and so on pieces actually protecting their wearer)? Because all I saw them wearing (canonically) are light "battlesuits" or robes as well.

Conclusion
So really. What do we have here? We have Bastilla on the one side. A Padawan with some talent in the force, one special gift (Battle Meditation) and some considerable lightsaber skills (at least enough to keep people like Malak or Revan busy for a minute or so).

On the other Handside we have Darth Maul. A "perfect Sith weapon" (DSSB), who's overall combat skills (force mastery and lightsaber skills) were not only enough to deal with two rather talented Jedi at once. No. He was also skilled enough to kill a guy who's lightsaber skill was "second to none" in the Jedi Order and another Jedi Master that has been on par with TPM Mace Windu in terms of overall duelling ability. That aside from almost killing Darth Sidious, who only barely managed to survive the fury of his own apprentice – in a situation where Maul lacked food and sleep for an month and was already badly injured.

So what? In a lightsaber duel, Bastilla will get slaughtered. In an all out fight Maul would speed up to her and slaughter her again. In a force fight? Well...given that Sidious calls Maul "well-trained" and even goes so far to call Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn "no match for him", that aside from the fact that Maul was trained in using the Dark Side for his entire life, actually makes me think that he does have some offensive force powers up his sleeve. On the other hand I don't see Bastilla battle meditating or force stunning him to death - which is pretty much all she can (canonically) do to him as she didn't have any considerable dark side training (and with that DS powers). She might win in a "force only" match but there is still nothing conclusive pointing in that direction.

So thanks for spending your time with getting owned again, Noobaris. Have a nice day.

lol

That was the most pwnage I've seen on here.

Originally posted by Janus Marius

lol

LMAO!

One of your very best, Nai.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The Dark Side Sourcebook (article about Darth Maul):
"Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts. Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. One those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest. After years of this kind of treatment, Darth Maul was absolutely ruthless-a perfect Sith weapon. By the
time he reached adolescence, Darth Maul was already a hardened, remorseless killer."

So much for his daily routine.

Uh-hu. Dark Side Sourcebook again (article about Darth Maul):
"Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all
the while being hunted by hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on. At that point, Darth Sidious returned and challenged his apprentice to a lightsaber duel, telling Maul that he had secretly been training a second apprentice in case Maul failed his final test-which, by failing to kill Sidious in the duel, he just had. Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all."

So to just recount that situation: Maul was left on a abandoned planet and hunted by a horde of assassin droids – this for a month. Then he was wounded badly by one of the droids and this is were Sidious returns. Now despite of suffering from hunger and being badly wounded, Maul still has the energy to launch himself at Sidious and almost kill him, since the Sith Lord just [b]barely managed to deflect the lighsaber blows of his own apprentice.

If the guy after one month of hunger, while being chased by a horde of deathly droids and getting badly injured is still able to almost kill Darth Sidious – what the hell would Bastilla do against Maul when he is in top shape?

Self ownage in the matter of sense that you aren't mentally skilled enough to read what I'm typing or respond to it in a way that actually makes sense. That would be presenting proof that Malak was above Darth Maul in terms of lightsaber skill or force powers. And after that doing the same for Bastilla. As you've completely failed to do one or the other, I don't see any ownage here.

Oh. That Jedi were "impressive"? You might want to tell us what makes them so "impressive" exactly.

How does that matter, dude? I'm referring to all out ability because everything else is plain and simply illogical. Fighting ability in terms of lightsaber combat always is a result of force abilities and actual lightsaber skill. It doesn't make any sense to seperate those two skills if you want to draw a conclusion regarding who of a pair of lightsaber combatants would be the better swordsman.

For what exactly? It's clearly mentioned that only Mace Windu and Yoda would be able to defeat Dooku on equal ground. We see people like Tholme and Sora Bulq, the latter one being one of the few people that were allowed to study Vaapad (meaning he was extremely well versed in lightsaber technique) challenge him together – and still get owned.

The 10,000s are mentioned in Shadow Hunter. Obviously the Order was in his "golden age" (TPM commentary) at that point in time and – unless all other eras – they are apparently able to find every force attuned kid in entire republic space, going by Qui-Gons comment in TPM that they would have found Anakin if he had been born in Republic Space.

Oh. They are the definete superiors in terms of lightsaber technique in comparison to the guy who mastered the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat"? Nice to know that. I'd say that statement is a little bit of a stretch. Especially since Dooku had extensive knowledge of all other lightsaber forms as well. Or to elaborate that: He did know the movement patterns of all other lightsaber forms as well which, since PoD, actually counts as "mastering" them – or at the very least "having been trained in that techniques".

Ingenious.
Beings that invented their own fighting style: Kun, Windu, Hord (maybe)
Beings that mastered multiple forms: Most of them are present in the PT era and Dooku is superior to most of them in all out lightsaber ability.[And he does have in depth knowledge about all lightsaber forms as well], adding Kas'im
Beings that were instinctively use the weapon with great ability and without training: Nomi Sunrider only.
Beings that could use the weapon without having access to the force with a considerable skill: Ulic Qel-Droma

I count six beings here that might be above Dooku in saber technique going by the criteria you listed. And that's from the combined history of the SW universe (25,000 years). Wow. No. He doens't stand out from the crowd there (with "the crowd" being all Jedi and Sith that happened to live in that time span, literally numbering in the millions). Lmao.

Oh really?
RotS novel:
"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-"
Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"
Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"
"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

And there you have Mr Kenobi being called THE MASTER of lightsaber combat by Mr Windu, who points out that Kenobi doesn't have any weakness in that department. Glad that this quote doesn't appear in the RotS novel. Wonder what book I have here. As it seems, Obi-Wan does (and did always have) some nice talent when it came to lightsaber combat.

The New Essential Guide to characters claims that Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn have spared a lot without one of them being able to out duel the other although Qui-Gon could have done that in his youth. So urm. I guess Qui-Gon did possess some nice amount of talent in the lightsaber combat department too. [/B]

with this load of crap, I could make a fortune in the fertilizer buisiness...

and Windu is far more powerful then obi wan, and So is yoda... windu even says so...
"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?" Hello? lethal vs classic? lethal is more powerful...

and this has very little to do with the obi wan that beat maul on naboo... so get back on topic.

"The New Essential Guide to characters claims that Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn have spared a lot without one of them being able to out duel the other although Qui-Gon could have done that in his youth. So urm. I guess Qui-Gon did possess some nice amount of talent in the lightsaber combat department too."

Umm... HELLO is anyone at home in your pitiful mind? Who cares about the begining. the results are, qui gon died to a pitiful Pawn of the Emperor. WEAKLING

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
with this load of crap, I could make a fortune in the fertilizer buisiness...

and Windu is far more powerful then obi wan, and So is yoda... windu even says so...
"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?" Hello? lethal vs classic? lethal is more powerful...

Umm... HELLO is anyone at home in your pitiful mind? Who cares about the begining. the results are, qui gon died to a pitiful Pawn of the Emperor. WEAKLING [/B]

Nice argument. But just for humor, try again..

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
with this load of crap, I could make a fortune in the fertilizer buisiness..

and Windu is far more powerful then obi wan, and So is yoda... windu even says so...
"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?" Hello? lethal vs classic? lethal is more powerful...

and this has very little to do with the obi wan that beat maul on naboo... so get back on topic.

Umm... HELLO is anyone at home in your pitiful mind? Who cares about the begining. the results are, qui gon died to a pitiful Pawn of the Emperor. WEAKLING

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
with this load of crap, I could make a fortune in the fertilizer buisiness..

Reciting your father's commentary on your birth doesn't change the truth in Nai Fohl's argument. It is conclusive, decisive, and has the benefit of being supported by properly cited, valid, canon sources. If you'd like to cast doubt on the subject, make a counterargument. 'Til then, there's no reason for you to critique something clearly well beyond your own reasoning skills.

Originally posted by Gideon
Reciting your father's commentary on your birth doesn't change the truth in Nai Fohl's argument. It is conclusive, decisive, and has the benefit of being supported by properly cited, valid, canon sources. If you'd like to cast doubt on the subject, make a counterargument. 'Til then, there's no reason for you to critique something clearly well beyond your own reasoning skills.

That was hilarious..

Yes it does. it does in fact make them weak. they are all pitiful pawns of a far greater being. This makes them tremor with weakness and inability.

Whats more, the only Sith capable of completing the circle was Vader, who did, but instead of becoming the dark lord then became a dying jedi.

in the end, all that anyone will remember, is that Maul died to an aspiring apprentice.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Yes it does. it does in fact make them weak. they are all pitiful pawns of a far greater being. This makes them tremor with weakness and inability.

in the end, all that anyone will remember, is that Maul died to an aspiring apprentice.

You know its funny you are still arguing that Bastilla is better than Maul yet you have not made any sort of argument to disprove Nai's posts.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
with this load of crap, I could make a fortune in the fertilizer buisiness...

And since you are so full of shit, you can also do that by sending small bits of yourself out into the world. Which might solve at least one problem if you do it often enough.

and Windu is far more powerful then obi wan, and So is yoda... windu even says so...
"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?" Hello? lethal vs classic? lethal is more powerful...

The point in question was that Noobaris stated, Kenobi (as well as Qui-Gon) could possibly lack skill in the actual lightsaber department. As you can see, Kenobi clearly had some talent in that department - hence he could go with the form that doesn't make up for any weak points of the combatant.

That Kenobi most likely wouldn't win a lightsaber duel against Yoda or Mace is clear - but not because he lacks talent in handling a lightsaber.

and this has very little to do with the obi wan that beat maul on naboo... so get back on topic.

See above. We were arguing talent in the lightsaber department here. It doesn't matter that Kenobi is using another style later.

Umm... HELLO is anyone at home in your pitiful mind? Who cares about the begining. the results are, qui gon died to a pitiful Pawn of the Emperor. WEAKLING

Right. And that tells you what? That Qui-Gon suddenly suffered from a heart-attack that kept him from fighting like he always did before (which was impressive). Or that Maul is indeed quite powerful.

Really. Read the rest of my argument. That "pitiful Pawn" managed to almost kill Sidious himself - after the same "pitiful Pawn" had spent a month on a planet without food, had been chased by a horde of assassin droids over that time, and had been badly injured by one of them.

Yet he still managed to almost kill Sidious. Which, sorry to tell you, trumps anything that Bastilla has ever done in terms of combat.

but he didnt.

if I almost kill you by trying to hit you with a car, does that make me powerful?

Almost Killing palpatine, and then getting killed by two average Jedi kinda make an inconsistency, seeing how powerful everyone makes palpatine out to be.

Minor correction: Maul never got close to killing Palpatine. Palpatine defeated Maul, mocked him over how insignificant he was and how Palp was training another apprentice...Maul snapped and went at Palpatin with intent to kill. He was disarmed and expected he was going to die, but Palpatine informed him by aiming to kill his master, he passed the test.

That said, Maul is a monster of combat. A martial arts expert, a saber master who made one of the finest Jedi combatants of his time realize he was totally outclassed in seconds.

That 'Pitiful Pawn' also defeated an ARMY of the galaxy's finest assassin's on his own. That 'pitiful pawn' singlehandedly crippled Black Sun, that 'pitiful Pawn' was responsible for the deaths of noted Jedi Masters and was trained by Palpatine to be a weapon.

Bastila is outclassed

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Almost Killing palpatine, and then getting killed by two average Jedi kinda make an inconsistency, seeing how powerful everyone makes palpatine out to be.

Qui-gon was not an average jedi (who he killed) and Ob1 was not the average padawan(who was out-dueled by maul)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Minor correction: Maul never got close to killing Palpatine. Palpatine defeated Maul, mocked him over how insignificant he was and how Palp was training another apprentice...Maul snapped and went at Palpatin with intent to kill. He was disarmed and expected he was going to die, but Palpatine informed him by aiming to kill his master, he passed the test.

Lightsnake. Take it up with the Dark Side Sourcebook. It's clearly stated that Sidious just barely managed to parry Maul's blows when Maul snapped and attacked him. Yes...after Maul's rage was over, Sidious disarmed him. Still Maul was close to killing the Sith Lord in that particular situation and that after which he had suffered before.

@Knightfall:

but he didnt.

Yes. He did.

if I almost kill you by trying to hit you with a car, does that make me powerful?

If you're trying to do that with a car that has an empty tank (no food for a month), is rusty (no sleep for a month) and on top of that doesn't have wheels (is badly injured) - and still almost manage to do the job, while I'm sitting in a freaking tank. Well...that won't make you powerful but I'd still call it impressive.

Almost Killing palpatine, and then getting killed by two average Jedi kinda make an inconsistency, seeing how powerful everyone makes palpatine out to be.

What average Jedi are you talking about? Read what I've typed down or STFU. Qui-Gon was on par with Mace Windu (!) when it came to overall lightsaber ability and Obi-Wan should later become one of the best combatants the order has. And you call them "average"?

That aside from the "inconsisty" is happening just between the SW canon and your (stupid) interpretation. Maul butchered entire armies of trained combatants without much difficulty and killed at least 2 rather powerful Jedi Masters.

And before you come up with such stupid statements again, make an argument for Bastilla - or go trolling elsewhere. "I dont tink dat you are right!" doesn't qualify as "reply".