I'm going to go with Bastila.
I've read all of E-Hotshots posts and they have merit. I'd like to add that Maul pales in comparison to some of the other Jedi and Sith out there. Maul is shown to constantly have trouble with fighting 1 or 2 mediocre jedi. Whereas, some of the greats have been able to take on entire groups of jedi. Anakin, Revan and The Exile each took on entire temples and emerged victorious. If Maul tried the same he would fail quite dramatically
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I'm going to go with Bastila.I've read all of E-Hotshots posts and they have merit. I'd like to add that Maul pales in comparison to some of the other Jedi and Sith out there. Maul is shown to constantly have trouble with fighting 1 or 2 mediocre jedi. Whereas, some of the greats have been able to take on entire groups of jedi. Anakin, Revan and The Exile each took on entire temples and emerged victorious. If Maul tried the same he would fail quite dramatically
No..
Originally posted by E-Hotshot
Apparently you've forgotten what point was being argued.
Awww. Noobaris.
It's nice that you have to make up quotes from other people now, to try and argue with other people. How boring. Here is what knightfall really has written:
"you guys are so... his arguements are crap. you cant give me one cannon source that says the two jedi had dealed with a sith before darth maul.... making them innexperienced."
Do you see any mentioning of a double-blade there? No. The only thing mentioned there is Maul's nature as a Sith. Not the double-blade. Which would be an equally stupid take, because, as Kas'im tells Bane pretty much: The blades are connected. If you know where blade number one is you'd also know where blade number two is. I wonder if that's something you deem beyond the intellectual level of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.
Which means that Qui-Gon was being outclassed during the fight... how? Qui-Gon was far older than Darth Maul, and would naturally possess a far weaker stamina, but the force can easily negate such a drawback. His heavy breathing doesn't indicate that he was being outclassed in any way.
Wow, Noobaris. Care to explain what you want to argue here? Yes. The heavy breathing (in comparison to Maul just standing there without being tired at all) actually indicates that Qui-Gon was outclassed by Maul in terms of physical fitness. And, allow me that little hint: Qui-Gon was KILLED by Maul just a short amount of time later. Does seem so as if the Sith Lord did outclass him to a certain extend, huh?
Exactly the same situation? False comparison, logical fallacy. Maul, whilst believing himself to have already beaten his opponent, was still fully focused on Obi-Wan. Darth Bane, on the other hand, was focusing on a completely different person, and wasn't paying any attention to Worror (the Ithorian that trapped Bane in the blue orb): a situation - according to the TotJ: KotOR comics - which naturally blocks a Force user's force sensing capabilities (issue 3, page 15, Oss Wilum: "the protection of the force is a matter of attention. A Jedi can be undone if his attention is drawn away from his attacker. Over the years, some opponents of the Jedi have learned to exploit this vulnerability"😉. Maul's attention was on his enemy, Bane's wasn't.
Which doesn't matter at all. The comparison I made was based on the fact that in both cases an already beaten opponent used another force manouver to attack the Sith (Bane/Maul) again. That Maul did actually look at Obi-Wan is irrelevant to the situation. Since Obi-Wan didn't use the force directly against Maul but he used it on himself (to be able to jump out of the reactor shaft) and on Qui-Gon's lightsaber (pulling it into his hand mid-air). I wonder what another Sith should have done in Maul's situation to prevent eventual defeat there.
You still just use the situation to downtalk Maul's natural reaction time and skills. Because he just didn't see such a move coming. Who would have been able to predict something like that? Even the top dogs in the SW universe have sometimes been surprised by unorthodox or literally "unpredictable" manouvers and barely survived that situations (if they managed to do it at all). And exactly this is what happened to Maul in TPM.
Still making sh1t up? Aside from the fact that nothing points to your claim,
I thought you have read the TOTJ comics? The Qel-Droma brothers weren't trained from infancy on. Neither was Nomi Sunrider. Oss Willum and Exar Kun also belong to the people that trained "some years" under their respective masters. Tott Doneeta did start his training with the Qel-Dromas (also not trained from infancy on). Pretty much everybody in the TOTJ era seems to have started somewhere beyond reaching adolescense. In the Jedi VS Sith comics it's even mentioned that they just trained younger people as a "last resort". While the comments on the Ruusan reformation given in various sources clearly mention that the practice of training Jedi from infancy on was installed in that period of time. To quote the PotJ Sourcebook: "Masters insisted that students should begin their training before they could become to wrapped up in the material world, with all its temptations and strong emotions."And that was past the last battle against the Brotherhood of Darkness.
Vandar is shown watching over Zayne and his peers when they were younglings in the second issue of the KotOR comics, and it can safely be assumed as being what is set up as the precedent, given that there was no particular plot necessity that had to have them be younglings at the time, but rather it was a standard dynamic of the story. That being said, Occam's Razor would dictate that Malak's career as a Jedi would have been as ordinary as possible. So the logical stance to take in the debate is that he logically would have received all of that training.
No. It is not. I can just again point out the workings of the Jedi Order in that time. If a Jedi accidentally stumbled across a being that was force sensitive, he brought that being to the Jedi Order for training. When that happened in the life of said individual didn't matter. Zayne (and the other younglings for that matter) had the luck to be among those people found early. That's in no way a "precendence" for that time but the exception. Yet if we can thrust Kreia's words on the matter, Revan was born somewhere in the Outer Regions. It's indeed very unlikely that he has been found very early in his life and the same would logically apply to his best friend Malak as they obviously both went through their Jedi Training at the same point in time and had the same age (roughly).
Still, even if none of that is the case, you were still committing a One-Sided Assessment fallacy, ignoring his Jedi training as a factor and only taking into consideration his Sith training, so own up.
Which wouldn't matter at all. Maul has been trained in Jedi as well as Sith arts for the entirety of his life. Malak's training in the Jedi ways was dropped when he went out for the Mandalorian Wars (and we don't know how long it did last at all) and the time of Sith training he might have had in no way equals Maul's. And even then: I might remember you that this is Maul vs Bastilla here. And Maul tops her in terms of Jedi and Sith training quite clearly.
Not that the quote proves anything in the grand scheme of things (and not that you even got the quote correct there), even if it did, that wouldn't necessarily mean that Maul would have had to have been talented in any way, as some pretty considerable training could easily make up for a lack of such a thing.
Which is a completely stupid idea. Why would Sidious pick some kid who hasn't much talent as his possible successor? Especially since he's notorius for seeking beings as apprentices who are known for their natural strength in the force (Dooku, Anakin). Apparently Sidious did think that Maul was rather talented. And since you yourself think that considerable training could easily make up for a lack of talent, I don't know what you want to argue here. It doesn't matter with what amount of talent Maul did start his training – all that matters is the result.
Quit being ridiculous. When making a comparison between the training of two individuals, and then forming a conclusion based on who would likely be superior after all of that, natural talent is always going to be a huge factor. Ignoring the factor in your conclusion undermines the accuracy of it, which was my exact point. I wasn't saying that you should have taken into account the unknown factor in your comparison like you appear to think, not at all. What I'm essentially saying, is that comparisons are useless unless you know all of the relevant factors involved, and given that we don't in this case, you bringing one up in this situation was nonsensical on your part.
Apparently you still don't get it. You're simply assuming (with no basis at all) that Bastilla must have had a far greater force attunement in comparison to Darth Maul. I for myself don't know who of them had the greater force potential (even though I would tend to say Bastilla), yet that wouldn't matter. It's the result of natural talent, training and actual combat experience that matters and going by this Bastilla seems to be quite inferior to Darth Maul.
Substantiate this fully, and then get back to me. How dangerous was this training, exactly? Does Maul really need to have been naturally talented to have survived it?
The Dark Side Sourcebook (article about Darth Maul):
"Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts. Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. One those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest. After years of this kind of treatment, Darth Maul was absolutely ruthless-a perfect Sith weapon. By the
time he reached adolescence, Darth Maul was already a hardened, remorseless killer."
So much for his daily routine.
In a fight where there's no proof whatsoever that Sidious was utilising all of his power.
Uh-hu. Dark Side Sourcebook again (article about Darth Maul):
"Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all
the while being hunted by hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on. At that point, Darth Sidious returned and challenged his apprentice to a lightsaber duel, telling Maul that he had secretly been training a second apprentice in case Maul failed his final test-which, by failing to kill Sidious in the duel, he just had. Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all."
So to just recount that situation: Maul was left on a abandoned planet and hunted by a horde of assassin droids – this for a month. Then he was wounded badly by one of the droids and this is were Sidious returns. Now despite of suffering from hunger and being badly wounded, Maul still has the energy to launch himself at Sidious and almost kill him, since the Sith Lord just barely managed to deflect the lighsaber blows of his own apprentice.
If the guy after one month of hunger, while being chased by a horde of deathly droids and getting badly injured is still able to almost kill Darth Sidious – what the hell would Bastilla do against Maul when he is in top shape?
LMAO!! You were the one who originally formed the comparison, Nai.Boringlad: Yet still she got owned by Malak. Who at this time, had studied the Sith ways for some years at max. I doubt he compares to a killing machine like Darth Maul who has been trained in the ways of the Dark Side for his entire life (more than two decades)
Self ownage.
Self ownage in the matter of sense that you aren't mentally skilled enough to read what I'm typing or respond to it in a way that actually makes sense. That would be presenting proof that Malak was above Darth Maul in terms of lightsaber skill or force powers. And after that doing the same for Bastilla. As you've completely failed to do one or the other, I don't see any ownage here.
Right answer: force owning two impressive Jedi at once, with little effort.
Oh. That Jedi were "impressive"? You might want to tell us what makes them so "impressive" exactly.
You're being purposefully vague here. Are you talking technique, or all out ability?
How does that matter, dude? I'm referring to all out ability because everything else is plain and simply illogical. Fighting ability in terms of lightsaber combat always is a result of force abilities and actual lightsaber skill. It doesn't make any sense to seperate those two skills if you want to draw a conclusion regarding who of a pair of lightsaber combatants would be the better swordsman.
2. I'd like some proof.
For what exactly? It's clearly mentioned that only Mace Windu and Yoda would be able to defeat Dooku on equal ground. We see people like Tholme and Sora Bulq, the latter one being one of the few people that were allowed to study Vaapad (meaning he was extremely well versed in lightsaber technique) challenge him together – and still get owned.
3. Substantiate the number of Jedi Knights and how that number compares to other eras.
The 10,000s are mentioned in Shadow Hunter. Obviously the Order was in his "golden age" (TPM commentary) at that point in time and – unless all other eras – they are apparently able to find every force attuned kid in entire republic space, going by Qui-Gons comment in TPM that they would have found Anakin if he had been born in Republic Space.
In technique, Anoon Bondara was his definite superior, as was Mace Windu.
Oh. They are the definete superiors in terms of lightsaber technique in comparison to the guy who mastered the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat"? Nice to know that. I'd say that statement is a little bit of a stretch. Especially since Dooku had extensive knowledge of all other lightsaber forms as well. Or to elaborate that: He did know the movement patterns of all other lightsaber forms as well which, since PoD, actually counts as "mastering" them – or at the very least "having been trained in that techniques".
Secondly, in respect to the entire SW Mythologies, he really doesn't, given the number of beings who invented their own fighting style, mastered multiple forms, were able to instinctively use the weapon with great ability without any training, or use it effectively while cut off from the force and out of practise.
Ingenious.
Beings that invented their own fighting style: Kun, Windu, Hord (maybe)
Beings that mastered multiple forms: Most of them are present in the PT era and Dooku is superior to most of them in all out lightsaber ability.[And he does have in depth knowledge about all lightsaber forms as well], adding Kas'im
Beings that were instinctively use the weapon with great ability and without training: Nomi Sunrider only.
Beings that could use the weapon without having access to the force with a considerable skill: Ulic Qel-Droma
I count six beings here that might be above Dooku in saber technique going by the criteria you listed. And that's from the combined history of the SW universe (25,000 years). Wow. No. He doens't stand out from the crowd there (with "the crowd" being all Jedi and Sith that happened to live in that time span, literally numbering in the millions). Lmao.
Just looked through those sources, and your quotes are nowhere to be found. Can't say I'm surprised. Either way, I never denied that they may be talented, but the point is, the technical ability passed on from a Master to a Padawan is logically, minimal. That's it.
Oh really?
RotS novel:
"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-"
Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"
Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"
"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."
And there you have Mr Kenobi being called THE MASTER of lightsaber combat by Mr Windu, who points out that Kenobi doesn't have any weakness in that department. Glad that this quote doesn't appear in the RotS novel. Wonder what book I have here. As it seems, Obi-Wan does (and did always have) some nice talent when it came to lightsaber combat.
The New Essential Guide to characters claims that Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn have spared a lot without one of them being able to out duel the other although Qui-Gon could have done that in his youth. So urm. I guess Qui-Gon did possess some nice amount of talent in the lightsaber combat department too.