Originally posted by exanda kane
But you're speaking utter bollocks, what do you expect me to do?You're just citing occurences and events within the Star Wars universe which bear no relation as to why you think Jedi make Star Wars special. Every "Sci-Fi" franchise has their own "Jedi," even Star Trek probably has a couple of superhuman monks about over the course of its poorly scripted history.
Please, stop indulging me with how many lonely nights you have spent pouring through Star Wars comics and actually solidify or create your argument, as you are coming across as a complete loony.
Ok,
A: I don't spend lonely nights pouring over Star Wars comics, I read them for entertainment puropses and remember what I read, and even at that I have only read part of Tales of the Jedi and what is out of Knights of the Old Republic. I mostly read the books.
B: The thing about the Jedi isn't that they are super-human monks, But the fact that they were at one time a religious group that were open defenders of peace throughout the galaxy. And not EVERY Sci-Fi has "Jedi". Many may have Force-esque abilities, but that doesn't make the people (Or aliens) who use them "Jedi Characters".
C: Without the Jedi, the story would not have developed along the same course as it has. Also, though the first movie may have been a sucess without the Jedi, it would not have held the attention of audiences through six movies, and the EU would be nearly, if not completely, Non-existant.
I will give that I was arguing 2 different points at the same time, but that doesn't make them any less valid.
Oh, and as a side-note Hasbro would brobably not be as huge of a company since their main money-maker is Star Wars.
Originally posted by LORD JLRTENJAC
[B]Ok,
B: The thing about the Jedi isn't that they are super-human monks, But the fact that they were at one time a religious group that were open defenders of peace throughout the galaxy. And not EVERY Sci-Fi has "Jedi". Many may have Force-esque abilities, but that doesn't make the people (Or aliens) who use them "Jedi Characters".
No, not every Sci Fi franchise has their Jedi, but they are certainly a generic convention , synonymous enough to not be a unique asset to Star Wars. The fact that they are religous crusaders makes little to no difference.
C: Without the Jedi, the story would not have developed along the same course as it has. Also, though the first movie may have been a sucess without the Jedi, it would not have held the attention of audiences through six movies, and the EU would be nearly, if not completely, Non-existant.
That's purely your assumption and you have no proof.
Oh, and as a side-note Hasbro would brobably not be as huge of a company since their main money-maker is Star Wars.
What's that got to do with Jedi? And you play with kids toys?
My argument is that the Western elements of Star Wars make it stand out from the crowd; the conventions of which are fundamentally American in ideology, both for US audiences and as an export for the rest of the world. Star Wars simply recycled the Western in futuristic garb for audiences at a time when Westerns were thought to be on their last legs.
Originally posted by exanda kane
That's purely your assumption and you have no proof.
I.E. Vader's ENTIRE backstory would be diferent.
Luke would not have gone to dagobah to learn the ways of the Jedi.
Obi-wan would not have returned as a force ghost after his death, actually he probably would not have let Vader kill him as easily.
Obi-Wan's back story would be completely diferent.
How the Republic became the Empire would be diferent.
Odds are that Luke and Leia's back stories would even be diferent. Hell, even 3P0's back story would probably be diferent.
The events of the Pre-quils would not have happened as they are, and the same goes for Episodes V and VI.
IV would probably be similar, since the Jedi were a small factor, but they would be different.
It is also VERY possible that the ENTIRE story would have been diferent, just for it to make sence.
Originally posted by LORD JLRTENJAC
The Jedi/Sith/Force users were a key plot factor in the movie series, without that plotfactor the story would not have developed the same way as it did.I.E. Vader's ENTIRE backstory would be diferent.
Luke would not have gone to dagobah to learn the ways of the Jedi.
Obi-wan would not have returned as a force ghost after his death, actually he probably would not have let Vader kill him as easily.
Obi-Wan's back story would be completely diferent.
How the Republic became the Empire would be diferent.
Odds are that Luke and Leia's back stories would even be diferent. Hell, even 3P0's back story would probably be diferent.
The events of the Pre-quils would not have happened as they are, and the same goes for Episodes V and VI.
IV would probably be similar, since the Jedi were a small factor, but they would be different.
It is also VERY possible that the ENTIRE story would have been diferent, just for it to make sence.
And? That doesn't mean anything outside of the context of the story.
it would be a different story. no way to determine whether it would have been better or worse, let alone good or bad. the presupposition is that no other interesting and compelling elements would be included in place of the jedi/sith which is completely fallacious. by your logic, star wars has been the only success in the space/scifi genre...because it had jedi and sith. you have no ground for which to present your argument besides restating over and over how you love the jedi. well most if not all of us do (this IS a starwars forum). this however is not the point. it would have been a different story, different characters (even if not in name), different timeline...endless possibilities which only the most pretentious of fools would claim to know for certain.
There would have been Star Wars, the movie.
Maybe Star Wars 2, the sequel.
If that does moderately well, you'll have #3.
But the plot for 2-3 would be one which doesn't exist in any sense. At most you get the space rebels fighting the evil galactic empire with lasers, light-speed, and spaceships.
Throw in some heroes who know how to shoot their laser guns and wield a laser sword like a samurai or musketeer, and you get a carbon copy of countless other space-based sci-fis.
Star Wars IS the Jedi and the Force. Not even the Sith, they're just the evil Jedi who came about in the prequels two decades after the originals. The Force, Jedi and lightsabers, when working together, form the very core of Star Wars. Every in-universe story NOT to do with them only exists because they set the precedent.
Originally posted by exanda kane
And? That doesn't mean anything outside of the context of the story.
The story has been my point this entire time.
Originally posted by Tangible God
There would have been Star Wars, the movie.Maybe Star Wars 2, the sequel.
If that does moderately well, you'll have #3.
But the plot for 2-3 would be one which doesn't exist in any sense. At most you get the space rebels fighting the evil galactic empire with lasers, light-speed, and spaceships.
Throw in some heroes who know how to shoot their laser guns and wield a laser sword like a samurai or musketeer, and you get a carbon copy of countless other space-based sci-fis.
Star Wars IS the Jedi and the Force. Not even the Sith, they're just the evil Jedi who came about in the prequels two decades after the originals. The Force, Jedi and lightsabers, when working together, form the very core of Star Wars. Every in-universe story NOT to do with them only exists because they set the precedent.
My point exactly.
Originally posted by Schecter
pure overly presumptuous and pretentious hogwash.
Not true, as I have been pointing out over-and-over again the story of Star Wars leans VERY heavily on the existance of the Jedi, without them, either the story would have to be completely diferent, or else it would make no sence.
Originally posted by Schecter
lolok, this conversation is over
Incredibly well said hahahaha
'84 film. eff off.
And JLRTENJAC, you're still talking bollocks. The aesthetics of the story have no place in the discussion about what Star Wars would be like without "Jedi." Storylines are all moot besides the fact that George Lucas considers Star Wars a Western in futuristic garb; it is the Western that makes Star Wars significant, not some pseudo-religous collective of monks.
Originally posted by LORD JLRTENJAC
Not true, as I have been pointing out over-and-over again the story of Star Wars leans VERY heavily on the existance of the Jedi, without them, either the story would have to be completely diferent, or else it would make no sence.
or it might have been epic or perhaps a flop.
fine. but thats as far as this discussion can rationally go.
q: What would Star Wars be without the Jedi?
a: something completely different.
Originally posted by exanda kane
Incredibly well said hahahaha'84 film. eff off.
And JLRTENJAC, you're still talking bollocks. The aesthetics of the story have no place in the discussion about what Star Wars would be like without "Jedi." Storylines are all moot besides the fact that George Lucas considers Star Wars a Western in futuristic garb; it is the Western that makes Star Wars significant, not some pseudo-religous collective of monks.
And why exactly are storylines moot besides your alleged fact?