Kain (Defiance) vs Dante (DMC4)

Originally posted by Burning thought
[B]yes you said all that, and ive said the Soul reaver has an immortal soul that will only lose power after starvation over a long period of time, which no time of such number will pass in a VS

lol, he can "control" souls, yes......so....and no he was not bringing souls, when did he do that, thats something i dont remember, please show me, EG does not manipulate souls with his tentacles, he can summon them however, he controls souls

they are ants, he can lift tonne blocks, and in BO2 he can put his hand straight through an armoured mans stomach, they are ants to Young kain, let alone full powered kain....humans as stated clearly are merely things for the fledgling infant vampires to fight, humans do not have anything to harm kain with, also how the hell do you think a human is going to harm kain lol....hes faster, stronger than any of them, has a better weapon which can one hit them especially now and can survive his heart being ripped out, i know youve little knowlede on the game but please use some common sense

Why do you think in DMC they dont use humans to fight against dante? Because it would be stupid to.

If humans were ants to Kain, then the developers would use something more worthy of a fight, Kain is obviously superior to a human, but in groups, they can cause Kain harm.

AI isn't always accurate either, in most RPG's AI can spam their magic as much as they want, and they dont have MP, but that doesn't mean MP or something like MP exists, they represent the stamina of magic, just because AI can spam magic as much as they want without wasting MP, doesn't mean in reality they can spam magic without getting tired.

Originally posted by Terryc250
One soul does not equal soulS in which the soul reaver needs to be fully charged

He did it near the beginning of defiance, he brought out a soul with his tentacle for raziel to feed off of it, EG is connected to many souls.

No theyre not, developers arent that stupid to put ants up against the player, its nonsense, take war games for example, do you see humans fighting ants? No, they wouldnt put ants up against humans because developers arent that stupid

Why do you think in DMC they dont use humans to fight against dante? Because it would be stupid to.

If humans were ants to Kain, then the developers would use something more worthy of a fight, Kain is obviously superior to a human, but in groups, they can cause Kain harm.

AI isn't always accurate either, in most RPG's AI can spam their magic as much as they want, and they dont have MP, but that doesn't mean MP or something like MP exists, they represent the stamina of magic, just because AI can spam magic as much as they want without wasting MP, doesn't mean in reality they can spam magic without getting tired.

1. it does if its immortal and endless

2. he does not bring them out with tentacles, he is a ruler of souls, there is no sense whatsoever in them giving energy to the reaver if it needed it out of gameplay, which ofc it is gamepaly, not canon...the reaver does not need to charge

3. What are you rambling on about, Dante is nothing on Kain so that is irrelevent what you just said, they dont put him up against humans becaue it would not make sense in the story, and actually he does fight a human, lady is a human is she not?

the Sarafan are integral throughout the LOK story, they are not just put in the game for a challenge for kain which tehy are not, any good player of LOK knows they are nothing, and they are in the canon, thats the thing, and if you read up on it, youll find out thats what they are

they cannot cause him any real harm in canon, he sprays through their bodies with his hands and thats when their armoured, and when kain was young.....you dont know the LOK obviously which is your problem, Kain does fight other enemies, hylden and demons for example, as well as Raziel and sorcerors in the first game, not just humans....Humans are nothing to kain, probably less so than they would be nothing to Dante....Dante would be nothing to kain

4. Well thats the problem with your argument and why its shattered, the thing is theres no "real life" offfical source, only gameplay that shows the reaver needing to charge and furthermore, there are tonnes of AI happenings and other in-game examples of what ive shown you, of the gameplay changing, its only gameplay, you fail and there is no charge

1. Thats not real evidence, it can just mean that its immortal and doesnt vanish like other souls, making it require less souls to charge.

2. Again, you cannot claim it doesn't need to charge without any real evidence.

3. Dante rarely fights humans, because normal humans are no match for him, Dante is not "nothing" on kain, Kain isn't even powerful, i've yet to see kain do anything powerful enough to even harm a city.

4. Obviously there is a charge or something that represents a charge, or they wouldn't put a charge in, unless you have real evidence that there is no charge and that he can simply spam his moves whenever he wants, the point stands.

There's no "non-canon sourse", there's an explanation of facts.
Look.
1. Kain has the ability to cast various spells in his weaker incarnation- the ability to cast them was "bound" to the form he had in times of Blood Omen.
2.Kain has 1000 years to evolve between BO and Defiance.
3. Defiance Kain is a completely different being from BO one. His Defiance form is INCAPABLE of performing magic like his BO form did. He has lost his "Sence of magic" and has to rely on Soul Reaver... or, more probably, as he evolves into perfect wielder of a Reaver, he needs the Reaver to channel all his abilities.

So evolution=\=becoming skyfather level character from what we see in canon. The thing with experience etc is thrown out of the window by the fact of evolution.

And Lady is one of the easiest bosses in DMC3, she's most probably the only one human boss. And she's not "normal" human- she performs some things that aren't normal for 17years girl. She's closer to peak human definition.
And that's the only instant of Dante vs trained human warrior. Read DMC1 prequel novel- rare occasion where Dante actually deals with humans- mafia bosses etc. At the age of 16-18(!) he was the best mercenary in the city. Normal humans were no match for him eventhen. He toys with them just like he does with Lady. Lady is an exception- a stubborn girl who was good enough to keep with our young halfbreed for a little before getting her ass kicked.
As Dante becomes older, there's no more human opponents for him- even in DMC2 when he stands in the way of transnational corporation seeking world domination. And even for young Dante humans were mere annoyance- he faced 90 expert gunwielders at once and the only thing he compained afterwards is having to buy new trenchcoat instead of one ruined by 200+bullets. And that was 17years old Dante from prequel novel.

Also about Kain's physical strength. Yes, he's able to throw armoured soldiers. Armour (not tournament one, regular one of the warriors) weights no more than 40 kg, a warrior weights 70-80 kg. That makes like 120 kg. Heavier that Harley type mororbike? I don't think.

Originally posted by Terryc250
1. Thats not real evidence, it can just mean that its immortal and doesnt vanish like other souls, making it require less souls to charge.

2. Again, you cannot claim it doesn't need to charge without any real evidence.

3. Dante rarely fights humans, because normal humans are no match for him, Dante is not "nothing" on kain, Kain isn't even powerful, i've yet to see kain do anything powerful enough to even harm a city.

4. Obviously there is a charge or something that represents a charge, or they wouldn't put a charge in, unless you have real evidence that there is no charge and that he can simply spam his moves whenever he wants, the point stands.

1. no its perfect evidence, the only instance you see charging is in-game and ive shown you several occurances where its completly ridiculous and obvious that those mechanics are exactley that and not canon when the rules are broken

2. again look above

3. first Humans are no match for kain, yet he fights them, he would stomp Dante in every way possible, Harm a city? now your talking about destruction, ive yet to see Dante destroy a city

4. no obviously not, give it up terry your dragging this on because you dont want to concede and people like me and madmel who actually know about the game think its ridiculous, the charge is put in for gameplay mechanics

real evidence is just as good as gameplay, when it come down to your argument being completly based around gameplay

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
There's no "non-canon sourse", there's an explanation of facts.
Look.
1. Kain has the ability to cast various spells in his weaker incarnation- the ability to cast them was "bound" to the form he had in times of Blood Omen.
2.Kain has 1000 years to evolve between BO and Defiance.
3. Defiance Kain is a completely different being from BO one. His Defiance form is INCAPABLE of performing magic like his BO form did. He has lost his "Sence of magic" and has to rely on Soul Reaver... or, more probably, as he evolves into perfect wielder of a Reaver, he needs the Reaver to channel all his abilities.

So evolution=\=becoming skyfather level character from what we see in canon. The thing with experience etc is thrown out of the window by the fact of evolution.

And Lady is one of the easiest bosses in DMC3, she's most probably the only one human boss. And she's not "normal" human- she performs some things that aren't normal for 17years girl. She's closer to peak human definition.
And that's the only instant of Dante vs trained human warrior. Read DMC1 prequel novel- rare occasion where Dante actually deals with humans- mafia bosses etc. At the age of 16-18(!) he was the best mercenary in the city. Normal humans were no match for him eventhen. He toys with them just like he does with Lady. Lady is an exception- a stubborn girl who was good enough to keep with our young halfbreed for a little before getting her ass kicked.
As Dante becomes older, there's no more human opponents for him- even in DMC2 when he stands in the way of transnational corporation seeking world domination. And even for young Dante humans were mere annoyance- he faced 90 expert gunwielders at once and the only thing he compained afterwards is having to buy new trenchcoat instead of one ruined by 200+bullets. And that was 17years old Dante from prequel novel.

Also about Kain's physical strength. Yes, he's able to throw armoured soldiers. Armour (not tournament one, regular one of the warriors) weights no more than 40 kg, a warrior weights 70-80 kg. That makes like 120 kg. Heavier that Harley type mororbike? I don't think.

wtf is this BS? current form is unable to cast spells you say? where does it possibly say this, if youve found a real canon source of this type then show me please since this debate aside ime interested in seeing this,

1. Their still the same kain, spells dont just disapear just because youve evolved in form just like knowledge does not

2. yes so.....

3. HE simply looks completly diffrent, he remembers everything from the last one, theres no reason to belive hes lost any power in any of them or any of his spells. If youve got this from an undeniable canon source then show me for evidence and i may concede that point, unless i can explain around it

No experiance is not thrown anywhere, evolving is just something Kain does, he doesnt loose his memories and other experiances that teach him things like how to use things and how to lead an army just because he has become a more superior form, this is a ridiculous argument all together unless you have some very clever proof to back it up with

So, Humans are the easiest enemies in LOK, if not simply flies, infact most of the enemies are except maybe Demons are a tiny bit trickier....

the big ones are likely close if Kain uses both his hands, he can throw those fully armoured ones with one hand, and even those big Glyph knights that are incredibly heavey, so if he used both his arms that would increase his strength and would likely able to show better strength than Dante overall with that motorbike, Kains lifted rocks that are at least several tonnes each, how can a bike compare....

but now this is getting off-topic Dantes strength in this fight and kains are a non factor, its ranged powers and abilities that will get the job done

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. no its perfect evidence, the only instance you see charging is in-game and ive shown you several occurances where its completly ridiculous and obvious that those mechanics are exactley that and not canon when the rules are broken

2. again look above

3. first Humans are no match for kain, yet he fights them, he would stomp Dante in every way possible, Harm a city? now your talking about destruction, ive yet to see Dante destroy a city

4. no obviously not, give it up terry your dragging this on because you dont want to concede and people like me and madmel who actually know about the game think its ridiculous, the charge is put in for gameplay mechanics

real evidence is just as good as gameplay, when it come down to your argument being completly based around gameplay

Dante can destroy large structures easily, thats more of a threat to a city then Kain can do.

the charge is put in for gameplay mechanics

real evidence is just as good as gameplay, when it come down to your argument being completly based around gameplay

Originally posted by Terryc250
1. How is that real evidence? Thats not real evidence at all, one soul does not equal many souls in which the reaver needs to be full, Raziels immortal soul can simply mean that it does not dissappear after awhile like the other souls, the reaver has been shown to charge in gameplay yes, and its never been shown to NOT charge.

Dante can destroy large structures easily, thats more of a threat to a city then Kain can do.

You cannot always use the "gameplay" excuse without real evidence that disapproves it, your reason that it doesn't require a charge is by ur theory with a ton of holes in it.

not really, Kain has control over lighting, he could just call forth thousands of streams constantly until theres nothing left but a burning city, if its a modern city, then it wouldnt be much left considering we use a lot of Gas

A theory filled with logic however (theres no holes) that makes sense to those who played all the games like me and madmel compared to your "only gameplay" excuse which is at the same time disproven by other gameplay elements, thats what smashes your argument

A draw?

very likely mfer considering whats going on, two immortals clash, both invulerable to certain things, however from what that piece of info Debel posted, Dante is only resistent to magic, not completly immune so eventually, Kain could either harm him or bash him about, (since Dreadnought makes him invulerable anyway), kain will just have to bash Dante around, ime sure that would count as a win

Originally posted by Burning thought
not really, Kain has control over lighting, he could just call forth thousands of streams constantly until theres nothing left but a burning city, if its a modern city, then it wouldnt be much left considering we use a lot of Gas

A theory filled with logic however (theres no holes) that makes sense to those who played all the games like me and madmel compared to your "only gameplay" excuse which is at the same time disproven by other gameplay elements, thats what smashes your argument

Your theory is not real proof, you think because Raziels soul is immortal, it can keep the reaver fully charge, when the soul reaver devours soulS to keep it fully sustained, one soul isn't enough.. and if that were true dont you think the developers wouldve taken the charge bar out? Yes it is gameplay but 99% of the time, things in gameplay represent something, like how MP represents their magic stamina, and HP represents their health, things in gameplay just arent there to make the game "difficult".

Originally posted by Terryc250
See thats the problem with ur statements, you claim he can just do anything without any drawbacks without any proof whatsoever, you think he can just call forth thousands of lightning to destroy a city..

Your theory is not real proof, you think because Raziels soul is immortal, it can keep the reaver fully charge, when the soul reaver devours soul[b]S to keep it fully sustained, one soul isn't enough.. and if that were true dont you think the developers wouldve taken the charge bar out? Yes it is gameplay but 99% of the time, things in gameplay represent something, like how MP represents their magic stamina, and HP represents their health, things in gameplay just arent there to make the game "difficult". [/B]

Why not? The spell lightning bolt his every enemy in the area, if every enemy happened to include a every civilion in a city they would be fried, and if its a modern city, the bolts would end up causing untold damage to electrical things, flammable things etc etc

the soul reaving capabilities ARE raziel, the way you said the reaver takes souls makes it sound like you think the reaver itself i the soul devourer, when its Raziel, Raziel is never starved for souls unless mortally wounded or his physical form is destroyed.

charge bar out when? its gameplay they wouldnt take it away, otherwise you would have an even easier time....thats your guessing that the charge bar represents something, when as ive shown you, its just gameplay because many things break the rule your inventing, nothing says anywhere that it needs to charge canonically

MP does represent magic, but the number of magic points you have, is a gameplay value, you couldnt say, "sephiroth has 1000 points is over someone in another game who only has 500" simply because the gameplay statistics are diffrent, like how in FF weapons deal a lot more damage as you upgrade your character and your HP and MP gets higher, but that doesnt mean he can really take that many hits in canon for example in FF10 Tidas can have 9999 etc etc points but that is only gameplay, he cannot in canon really survive a full powered attack from certain creatures, but this is only Tidas, ime taking overall gaming.

HP is definaltey gameplay, especially when using numbers, most things are connected to game difficulty, and many of these things youve mentioned are actually mentioned in the canon as being true wheras charging is not

Originally posted by Burning thought
Why not? The spell lightning bolt his every enemy in the area, if every enemy happened to include a every civilion in a city they would be fried, and if its a modern city, the bolts would end up causing untold damage to electrical things, flammable things etc etc

the soul reaving capabilities [B]ARE raziel, the way you said the reaver takes souls makes it sound like you think the reaver itself i the soul devourer, when its Raziel, Raziel is never starved for souls unless mortally wounded or his physical form is destroyed.

charge bar out when? its gameplay they wouldnt take it away, otherwise you would have an even easier time....thats your guessing that the charge bar represents something, when as ive shown you, its just gameplay because many things break the rule your inventing, nothing says anywhere that it needs to charge canonically

MP does represent magic, but the number of magic points you have, is a gameplay value, you couldnt say, "sephiroth has 1000 points is over someone in another game who only has 500" simply because the gameplay statistics are diffrent, like how in FF weapons deal a lot more damage as you upgrade your character and your HP and MP gets higher, but that doesnt mean he can really take that many hits in canon for example in FF10 Tidas can have 9999 etc etc points but that is only gameplay, he cannot in canon really survive a full powered attack from certain creatures, but this is only Tidas, ime taking overall gaming.

HP is definaltey gameplay, especially when using numbers, most things are connected to game difficulty, and many of these things youve mentioned are actually mentioned in the canon as being true wheras charging is not [/B]

And as i said before, nothing canonically says that it doesn't need to be charged outside of gameplay.

MP respresents Magic STAMINA, as HP represents HEALTH, as HP goes up, it means your getting STRONGER, Levels represents how powerful you are getting, these things in gameplay represent something, they dont just add it in for no reason at all.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The Soul Reaver devours souls to charge, the same way Blood Reaver devours blood to charge.

And as i said before, nothing canonically says that it doesn't need to be charged outside of gameplay.

MP respresents Magic STAMINA, as HP represents HEALTH, as HP goes up, it means your getting STRONGER, Levels represents how powerful you are getting, these things in gameplay [b]represent something, they dont just add it in for no reason at all. [/B]

ofc they dont, they add them all in for the benefit of the player and gameplay, imagine how much easier it would be (jesus LOK defiance is a easy game as it is), it would be horrible really if you could destroy these small groups of humans in a realistic slash of the reaver instead of about 7 hits, same with many games how boring it would be or annoying if in Call of duty you died in a shot, or Doom games if a single demon slash killed you, or if you killed them all in one hit, it wuld be boring ,same as if the reaver needed to charge

Originally posted by Burning thought
ofc they dont, they add them all in for the benefit of the player and gameplay, imagine how much easier it would be (jesus LOK defiance is a easy game as it is), it would be horrible really if you could destroy these small groups of humans in a realistic slash of the reaver instead of about 7 hits, same with many games how boring it would be or annoying if in Call of duty you died in a shot, or Doom games if a single demon slash killed you, or if you killed them all in one hit, it wuld be boring ,same as if the reaver needed to charge

But obviously the Charge bar does not because it apprently goes up by hitting EG tentacles which do not have souls inside each of them, second the charge is not shown when used by NPC's which negates it again and 3rdly its a gameplay element anyway which is cut out of VS debates

either way, kain takes this with ease, he does not need the reavers powers at all to win this.......so why it was brought up other than foolery i dont know, same in the "Team supreme" thread, kain does not need to use any of the reaver powers

And apparently you can use MP absorb on wolves who cant use magic, not everything is accurate in gameplay but not everything is BS, and just because its in gameplay it doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all outside of gameplay, gameplay elements represent somethign and arent just there for no reason.

It was brought up because after you started claiming kain can use his reaver powers on a whim without any drawbacks.

but he can......as the last few pages should have tought you, the charge is only gameplay, so there is no drawback to kain using reaver powers but its pointless to argue in this thread about that, he doesnt even need the reaver

No.. the last couple pages should have taught you that not everything in gameplay is meaningless as you claim it to be =\

almost everything is, and without direct evidence it is useless, furthermore, gameplay is cut out of VS debates, so "shrug" it doest matter with way unless theres concrete evidence, so no matter whos argument is better (mine) Kains reaver is infnite simply because theres zero to say it isnt, all we know as fact is he can use reaver powers, thats all we know as fact, pretending Gameplay did not excist and it was all documentation, which is what this VS fight is

meh kain wins em both, fairly easily too

Originally posted by Burning thought
almost everything is, and without direct evidence it is useless, furthermore, gameplay is cut out of VS debates, so "shrug" it doest matter with way unless theres concrete evidence, so no matter whos argument is better (mine) Kains reaver is infnite simply because theres zero to say it isnt, all we know as fact is he can use reaver powers, thats all we know as fact, pretending Gameplay did not excist and it was all documentation, which is what this VS fight is

meh kain wins em both, fairly easily too

Common sense usually tells us that if theres a charge in gameplay, there is something similar to a charge outside of gameplay, there is nothing that states there is no charge at all outside of gameplay. Kain has no powerful feats of his own, if everything in gameplay is BS, then kains spells should be BS as well because hes never used them outside of gameplay.