Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Perhaps not ROtS Palpatine, but there is no doubt in my mind that DE Palpatine would be able to take them in two on one matches.
That too can be debatable depending on the two sith he would be facing. But I'd probably agree with you for the most part though he would be in for a tough fight.
That too can be debatable depending on the two sith he would be facing. But I'd probably agree with you for the most part though he would be in for a tough fight.
Nihilus and Caedus would pose the major threat, but DE Sidious could probably take them both after a long and difficult fight, but in my opinion DE Sidious would take Exar-Revan comfortably, and I don't know enough about Ragnos or Nadd to make that call.
Hence the reason I'd said he lose due to the orbalisks in a force fight and I know that he falls all out.
I know, but we're just talking about a straight up fight here. The very fact that we have to make up special circumstances for Bane to pose a threat makes it a poor example IMO.
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Nihilus and Caedus would pose the major threat, but DE Sidious could probably take them both after a long and difficult fight, but in my opinion DE Sidious would take Exar-Revan comfortably, and I don't know enough about Ragnos or Nadd to make that call.
As would Kun and Caedus or Kun and Nihilus. Bane is tough a call honestly because of his orbalisks become a disadvantage with someone who uses lightning like sidious but they are really helpful in saber duels. I would say that out of the known sith I mentioned Revan would have to be (overall) the weakest but Bane and lightning is a tough call. Now if we would put Caedus,Kun and Nihilus together i think DE sidious would lose or if he could somehow pull victory which i honestly have my doubts) he would be in for the hardest fight of his life.
I know, but we're just talking about a straight up fight here. The very fact that we have to make up special circumstances for Bane to pose a threat makes it a poor example IMO.
That is true but it is not as easy to put a our hand shoot Bane with lightning and he falls (all out) due his lightsaber and im not sure if a force shield could withstand it. The orbalisks are a double edged sword.
I am aware of two separate sources that have each indicated that Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history as of Revenge of the Sith. The first was the statement -- "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history" -- issued by Voren Na'al, the head of the Galactic Alliance's Historical and Research division. The second was the out-of-universe statement in the Attack of the Clones Ultimate Visual Guide (also featured in the Complete Visual Dictionary), citing that Sidious was "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" (and one should note that, at this point, all of Palpatine's machinations and schemes had not yet yielded any true result for, at this time, he was only the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, with explicitly limited powers). This does not take into account the statements issued by the Dark Side Sourcebook ("the most powerful of [the Sith Order] was Darth Sidious..."😉, The Essential Guide to the Force ("Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings"😉, or another statement indicated by the Complete Visual Dictionary ("The Sith have waited a millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one."😉
That said, however, there are several Force-users who can compete with -- and defeat -- Sidious as of RotS. As he gradually ascends to a higher level of power during the OT, the list thins. And, finally, during his status as Dark Empire -- I'd say, for certain, only Luke Skywalker as of the latter stages of New Jedi Order can individually compete with the Galactic Emperor.
Originally posted by 0°Mandalore°0
By 'several Force-users' you mean only Jedi, correct?
That is not as easily a cut-and-dry question as one makes it out to be. On the one hand, yes, only two Jedi Masters, in the words of George Lucas can "compete" with the Galactic Emperor and have demonstrated the necessary skill and power to defeat him in single combat; Masters Yoda and Windu. But, objectively speaking, that Windu is included in that list -- indeed, he came closer to ending Sidious's life than Yoda himself did -- brings another question into mind: does one necessarily have to be stronger than the Emperor to kill him? Sidious's own words from the Telos Holocron seem to indicate that the Galactic Emperor supports the out-of-universe "Any Given Sunday" rule (the old lesson that any foe can be defeated if given the right circumstances): "Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. But that only lasted for so long." -- page 170.
Despite Windu's formidable skill, the novelization quite explicitly states that the Supreme Chancellor initially held the advantage. He was faster and more agile than Windu, which is the likely cause of why Sidious was able to so effortlessly obliterate three of the most senior and capable Jedi Masters at the time (indeed, they were considered some of the very best ever). But, we all know the nature and fundamentals of Vaapad, they've been discussed thoroughly. And certainly, Windu has never demonstrated the extent and control of the Force that the Emperor has.
In terms of raw power, one can readily state that Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker both possess raw power well in excess of the Galactic Emperor's. Despite his lackluster performances, one can also assume that Darth Caedus and Kyp Durron also compare to Palpatine on a level of raw power. Mace Windu and Yoda? That would require further debate, because one could assume that -- despite the fact that one can always learn new Force techniques -- after nine centuries, Yoda had reached much of his own personal potential, whereas the Galactic Emperor most assuredly did not (Lumiya offers in Legacy of the Force that the Emperor's power was "limitless" and Mara Jade Skywalker, despite being intimate with Luke Skywalker, refers to the Emperor's reserve of Force energy as "vast"😉. Windu? Once again, we know that he is a Jedi Master of nearly peerless talent -- but does he compare on a level of raw power? Perhaps.
In terms of acquired knowledge, Palpatine has demonstrated a deeper and more profound knowledge of the Force than any other being in the mythos. Obviously, his knowledge is not completely infallible. He still has learned and invented new techniques, and if one can assume Darth Plagueis truly possessed the power he is reputed to have (which evidence points to as fact), Sidious did not know it. I would argue that only Yoda and the collective Ancient Sith seem to come close in terms of depth. As far as range, only Jacen Solo and Luke Skywalker can compete.
In terms of acquired power, knowledge, and skill, I would have to say that the following could be argued to be on a level with the Emperor: Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, Kyp Durron, Marka Ragnos, and Exar Kun. Perhaps, as well, Sekot. And insofar as who could likely defeat him? I'd say that would only go to Luke Skywalker, post New Jedi Order.
Originally posted by 0°Mandalore°0 Interesting points. You said Marka Ragnos could be equal to Sidious as of ROTS, in terms of power, knowledge, and skill? I'm amused. Why would you say so, when almost nothing about him is known? I'm sure you must have a good reason.
I would respectfully suggest paying closer attention to my responses. I did not state nor suggest that Marka Ragnos "could be equal" to in terms acquired skill, power, and knowledge to Darth Sidious circa Revenge of the Sith; I deliberately worded my statements to avoid such a suggestion. My newfound methodology, inspired by the essays contributed at another website (largely the work of Publius) requires me to take the full scope of canon into consideration and assume -- unless a specific retcon or elimination has taken place -- that it all does fit into a big picture, nothing arbitrary. You will notice that many professional authors who have written Star Wars literature have taken many the same precautions; consider how few of them have truly named absolutes. Kas'im was never stated to be the definate "greatest duelist ever" -- only stated to be "one of" the best ever (up 'til that point). It seems to fill into a larger scheme of things; perhaps LFL truly knows what they're doing.
But back on topic: there is no on-panel evidence indicating specifically where Ragnos would compare, precisely, to Sidious, which is why it is oh-so-foolish to remotely suggest that he is superior to the Dark Lord. However, logical evidence, accounts from other Sith Lords, statements by the omniscient narrator, and lastly, the events concerning his attempted resurrection in Jedi Academy would point to Ragnos being an individual of truly incredible power. He was the supreme ruler of a civilization of dark siders who were each submerged in powerful Sith arcana and Sithian magic. While none of them have truly proven themselves to be "incredibly powerful" without use of their technology, that Ragnos was their undisputed ruler (and by all accounts, he was a calculating, cunning leader -- like Sidious) says quite a bit. When you combine it with the rest of the information, it is not a stretch to say that he compares to Darth Sidious as of RotS.
Yes, it shouldn't be a stretch. Something wouldn't be right if it was.
I know I misunderstood you, but actually the only reason why I would've been amused is because you said it. If someone else says 'Ragnos compares to Sidious', I wouldn't pay as much attention.
In my opinion, Ragnos is a very interesting character. It would be great to know more about him.
And Palpatine could destroy Sekot with his force storm. Then again, who is to compare Sidious to a planet? Escape hit it spot on in terms of comparing oher characters to Sidious. I personally don't agree with the notion that Jacen Solo's power has increased exponentially and in such as short time, when it was supposed to happen to Anakin Solo who was noted as the most powerful of the three and the one who would have eventually took over Luke's order. The same goes with Kyp. I would argue that Revan belongs on the same level as Exar Kun, and I don't think either of them could have competed with post ROTS Palpatine..
Darth Bane could destroy a planet.
Admittedly with some help, but as it was stated that he was more powerful then them all I have to wonder if they were really needed.
Also its possible to argue that he would be able to do it alone after his 10 years of additional training/ adventures.
Nihilus and Caedus would pose the major threat, but DE Sidious could probably take them both after a long and difficult fight, but in my opinion DE Sidious would take Exar-Revan comfortably, and I don't know enough about Ragnos or Nadd to make that call.
You're all insane and ridiculously far up Sisious' arse
effortlessly obliterate three of the most senior and capable Jedi Masters at the time (indeed, they were considered some of the very best ever).
Where is that stated? Because I read that damn book and came up with squat.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Where is that stated? Because I read that damn book and came up with squat.
Even if they were not considered the best, what he did is still very, very impressive. I'd like you to name at least two other Sith Lords who would be able to kill three of the most experienced and powerful Jedi Masters of the ROTS Order in less than 5 seconds.
This is my opinion and does not reflect canonicity in any possible way...
Therefore, do not debate/argue on it in any way. If I am wrong on any canon fact I make, correct me.
Ok it says sideous is "the most powerful sith" but is he more powerful then two of the most powerful? from what I understand Nihilus is VERY powerful, and Scion is Nigh on Invincible (or is that just gameplay mechanics to pose a challenge?) so, could he be teamed to death by these two?
Nihilus kept a whole ship together using the force, and he is pretty dang powerful just by 3rd person witnesses, And Scion is invincible and pretty skilled with the lightsaber from what I understand.
i guess my point is that Sideous would be able to tool either one of them singly, but he couldnt incapacitate Scion to get him out of the game, and he couldnt easily distract Nihilus with scion pounding on him as well, so he would pretty much have to convince scion to die and then kill nihilus or vice versa. but up until then, he would have to be dueling them both simultaneously.... A challenge I think just might be too great.
Even if they were not considered the best, what he did is still very, very impressive. I'd like you to name at least two other Sith Lords who would be able to kill three of the most experienced and powerful Jedi Masters of the ROTS Order in less than 5 seconds.
1. Nihilus- Killed the Jedi gathering on Kattar
2. Traya- Force Drain was so powerful that it took down the 3 top Jedi in the order in an instance.