Originally posted by Darth ExodusSo? Nobodies like sia lan wezz could survive an even greater catastrophe like order 66 yet got wtf owned by vader.
Powerful enough to:1. Survive the Mando wars
Originally posted by Darth ExodusHa, being a sith lord isn't indicative of ones power. Look at people like githany and the BOD.
2. become a Sith Lord
Originally posted by Darth ExodusBoss a bunch of nobodies
3. Boss around a bunch of other Sith
Originally posted by Darth ExodusBig deal, how is that an indication of massive power? Kreia still > sion by miles.
4. Be trained by Traya
Originally posted by Darth ExodusWhoope fu*king do, and luke hacked of palpatines hand, so i guess he as of DE is a god.
5. Cut off Traya's hand
Originally posted by Darth ExodusCut content = non canon.
7. Kill Atton
not easily thou... Think about it a second. Sideous might be more powerful then any other sith singularly, but what about two of some of the most poweful contenders at the same time?
Sidious is more powerful according to half of KMC, the observation of the in-universe historian who wrote a histories of the saga shortly after Sidious was deposed, and Sidious himself. So yeah, nothing objective there. Sidious has an incredible display of the Force, but his Force storm doesn't make him immortal, and the fact that he could rip space and time in his little office before getting skewered by Sion or getting thrown around like a ragdoll and eaten by Nihilus just baffles the mind. Luke Skywalker was able to get a hand up on Sidious before he was strong enough to open his own academy, and Luke's no saber god at that point. Sion is pretty much able to butcher Jedi masters like its his job, absorb an unclarified and likely high level of physical pain and abuse without falling apart (His body was torn and battered thousands of times and held together with his will; Nihilus, for his part, dominated an entire ship's crew and army and held it together with his will and bitchslapped Traya who can kill Jedi masters with a wave of her hand).
So yeah, Nihilus and Sion together have higher showings in immediate personal power. Nihilus is pretty much a walking plot device and only the Exile could have taken him on, and Sion can't be killed outright that we know of (Perhaps only taken apart and obliterated). So yeah, they rush him and he dies. period. No epic fight.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Sidious is more powerful according to half of KMC, the observation of the in-universe historian who wrote a histories of the saga shortly after Sidious was deposed, and Sidious himself. So yeah, nothing objective there. Sidious has an incredible display of the Force, but his Force storm doesn't make him immortal, and the fact that he could rip space and time in his little office before getting skewered by Sion or getting thrown around like a ragdoll and eaten by Nihilus just baffles the mind. Luke Skywalker was able to get a hand up on Sidious before he was strong enough to open his own academy, and Luke's no saber god at that point. Sion is pretty much able to butcher Jedi masters like its his job, absorb an unclarified and likely high level of physical pain and abuse without falling apart (His body was torn and battered thousands of times and held together with his will; Nihilus, for his part, dominated an entire ship's crew and army and held it together with his will and bitchslapped Traya who can kill Jedi masters with a wave of her hand).
So yeah, Nihilus and Sion together have higher showings in immediate personal power. Nihilus is pretty much a walking plot device and only the Exile could have taken him on, and Sion can't be killed outright that we know of (Perhaps only taken apart and obliterated). So yeah, they rush him and he dies. period. No epic fight.
Sion slew Jedi Masters like it was his job? Care to quantify the abilities of the said Jedi Masters? The same Sion who got talked to death by the average Exile? Give me a break. If the exile could talk him to death, what is the MASTER manipulator of the star wars galaxy going to do? You are right that Nihilus' personal eating power is unbelievable, but Sidious force storm was said to be the most powerful dark side ability to date. Not to mention Nihilus can't eat what he can't sense..
There is no reason to be petty, Janus. If you're going to take the rest of us down this dark corridor, you might want to make sure that you turn on all of the lights; you might trip on something.
Welcome back, by the way.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Sidious is more powerful according to half of KMC, the observation of the in-universe historian who wrote a histories of the saga shortly after Sidious was deposed, and Sidious himself. So yeah, nothing objective there.
Would you like to debate this? Aside from failing to put one source into proper context, I would also point out that the Galactic Emperor isn't the only other source of his own superiority over the other Dark Lords. Since you're much more of an interesting opponent than Nebaris here, I'd be willing to take the time to argue this.
So yeah, Nihilus and Sion together have higher showings in immediate personal power.
Based on what? Your say-so? No, I don't think so, Janus. While Darth Sion has been able to "butcher Jedi masters like its his job", you have not substantiated this to make it worthwhile. Darth Sidious, on the other hand, butchered three of the "finest swordsmen in the order's history" in less than a minute and held Count Dooku in servile submission for over a decade. That alone puts him well beyond your interpretation of Sion's acquired skill; that the Exile was able to manipulate him into abandoning his immortality speaks very well for the likelihood that Darth Sidious would easily be able to do the same -- especially since the New Essential Guide to the Force makes it very clear that the Emperor was well aware of the events that occured on Malachor V.
So, I'm afraid not. Of the two, only Nihilus could compete in terms of power.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Sidious is more powerful according to half of KMC, the observation of the in-universe historian who wrote a histories of the saga shortly after Sidious was deposed, and Sidious himself. So yeah, nothing objective there.
Sidious has an incredible display of the Force, but his Force storm doesn't make him immortal, and the fact that he could rip space and time in his little office before getting skewered by Sion or getting thrown around like a ragdoll and eaten by Nihilus just baffles the mind.
Luke Skywalker was able to get a hand up on Sidious before he was strong enough to open his own academy, and Luke's no saber god at that point.
Sion is pretty much able to butcher Jedi masters like its his job, absorb an unclarified and likely high level of physical pain and abuse without falling apart (His body was torn and battered thousands of times and held together with his will;
Nihilus, for his part, dominated an entire ship's crew and army and held it together with his will and bitchslapped Traya who can kill Jedi masters with a wave of her hand).
So yeah, Nihilus and Sion together have higher showings in immediate personal power. Nihilus is pretty much a walking plot device and only the Exile could have taken him on,
and Sion can't be killed outright that we know of (Perhaps only taken apart and obliterated). So yeah, they rush him and he dies. period. No epic fight.
And to offer conclusive proof to confirm that the then-powerful Luke Skywalker was unable to defeat the Galactic Emperor:
Luke Skywalker had embraced the dark side in an effort to conquer Palpatine. Fortunately, Luke eventually realized that he could not defeat Palpatine alone.
-- The Essential Guide to the Force, page 7.
Exploiting loopholes, while not remarkably ethical, is completely effective. But, as in many cases, one must make a good argument to cast doubt on an issued statement. For example, Nebaris's preferred tactic is to argue semantics; to transfer any statement regarding Palpatine's undeniable strength in the dark side as an example of his "dedication" or how "evil" he was or how his upper level demonstrations of power are "ritualistic in nature"; his most awe-inspiring example of the attempts is when he took the statement: "[the Galactic Emperor] succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side" and attempted to claim that to tame is to weaken. These are wretched and illogical examples of exploiting loopholes and I reiterate: anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation bears the burden of proof; simply claiming that a quote is "ambiguous!" or whatnot requires supporting evidence to demonstrate how one can reach that conclusion.
In the past, the attempts lack such evidence, so they are to be ignored.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
still, how is palpatine going to talk Scion Down while Nihilus is banging on him?
An observant person would notice that I never said that the Galactic Emperor would be able to "talk Sion down"; I simply said, and with a good basis, that he is capable of doing such. Janus Marius, no doubt distracted or very tired, made a very unsupported claim and expected it to hold some great amount of weight. He failed to substantiate how Darth Sion "butchering Jedi Masters like it's his job" somehow suggests that he is on a level with the Emperor -- much less his superior, and he fails to account for Palpatine's butchery of three of the Order's finest swordsmen. Even with his de facto invulnerability, Sion is hardly fallible, as what amounts to an "average" Jedi, according to Nai Fohl, was capable of convincing him to relinquish this particular trait. The New Essential Guide to the Force makes it very plain that the Emperor was fully aware of the debacle at Malachor V, and -- of course -- Palpatine has demonstrated a peerless skill at manipulation. He is easily capable of performing the identical feat. In short: nothing suggests that Sion is, in terms of acquired skill, on a level with the Galactic Emperor.
However, given the considerable Force prowess of Nihilus, you're very right -- Palpatine could not waste precious energy on Sion while trying to deal with Nihilus and depending on the circumstances, the two are quite easily capable of overwhelming him. However, one can also make room for the possibility of the Galactic Emperor incapacitating Sion (which he is easily capable of doing) and then dealing with Nihilus. Either Sidious barely wins or he is defeated.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
still, how is palpatine going to talk Scion Down while Nihilus is banging on him?
Easy. He kills Nihilus in saber combat, then takes down Sion with manipulating.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
and, The Exile is somewhat of a "master manipulater" in the fact that the reason the Jedis Took his force away
The Jedi never took her Force Power away (note: The Exile is canonically female), she was stripped of it naturally at the First Battle of Malachor V.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
still, how is palpatine going to talk Scion Down while Nihilus is banging on him?and, The Exile is somewhat of a "master manipulater" in the fact that the reason the Jedis Took his force away was because of his exceptional ability to make force bonds and manipulate Jedi to his cause.
Where is this assumption coming that Sion's skin and bones is somehow saber resistant? Especially considering it'll cauterize the wounds, making reconnection VERY difficult for him? He's probably going to fight rather than sit back and hold a civilized debate. As I said, I have the feeling that even if he can stay alive without his head, he won't be able to fight much.
tdtd:
Again with this Sidious nonsense. No offense Janus but give it a rest. You're a very intelligent guy but even you need to stop arguing obvious facts. Btw how's Nihilus going to "eat" Sidious? Sidious knows the Fallanassi looping technique. What' Nihilus going to eat? Then you mention how Luke took off Palpatine's hand. Did you forget he had the help of Leia and the unborn Ben? Did you forget that they both were powerful enough not to be seen even by a force uesr like Leia? Palpatine was killing his troops while he was fighting Luke. Pretty damn powerful. Then we have Palpatine's force lightning. The force storm is useless in a 1 on 2 confrontation. And btw, if Nihilus held the Ravager with his will, it would have fallen apart when he died. Tobin is a fallible 3rd party character.
Wait, so you're saying Sidious is going to win against Nihilus because he's going to use some obscure looping technique and what? Nihilus and Sion are going to just stand there and die?
That's just plain stupid. Sidious is going to have two Sith Lords attacking him, using the Force in ways he probably hasn't had to deal with. It won't be like Larry, Curly, and Moe who just stand there while he kills them with the Psycho Crusher. Nihilus himself was able to overcome Traya; Traya herself was able to kill three Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand. I'll be damned if they didn't get a single finger moved when she attacked. They were stone dead.
Now, let's put two pieces of fact together to make an observation:
Traya is clearly head and shoulders above the three Jedi Masters, who themselves were pretty remarkable for their era. Some people here would have it that they are weak as kittens, but that's bullshit- these were Jedi Masters with incredible Force powers. The fact that Traya can snap her fingers and kill them at will (And latter an entire Sith ambush party) only hints to her own considerable powers.
Part two, Nihilus literally schools Traya. Sion beats her like a dog while Nihilus shoves her all over the place. She was helpless. She could do nothing in return. She was 'cast down' and broken before them. Traya, who can kill Jedi masters with a wave of her hand.
So my observation is thus: If Sion and Nihilus can casually overcome her and wreck her style, what in the hell is RotS Sidious going to do? And don't give me this shit about OT-era Sidious either. That's a generation later.
Sion slew Jedi Masters like it was his job? Care to quantify the abilities of the said Jedi Masters? The same Sion who got talked to death by the average Exile? Give me a break. If the exile could talk him to death, what is the MASTER manipulator of the star wars galaxy going to do?
If you believe that Sidious is going to talk Sion to death, you're just sadly delusional.
SIDIOUS: Hey, I don't know you. Kill yourself! I'm a nice guy, I swear!
SION: We have no prior relationship, my former master does not favor you, and you're not canonically a chick so I don't have feelings for you. But hey, I'll kill you for your shiny lightsaber.
Please, don't be ridiculous. The Exile is able to use Sion's despair and the situation to his/her advantage, and it has ****-all to do with "master manipulator" skills. Sidious and Sion obviously don't have the same love-hate relationship as Sion and Traya and the Exile. If you're arguing that a plot device would extend to entirely different circumstances (Ignoring the widely-held idea that Versus matches are to be neutral grounds for combat) then you're really smoking on that exhaust pipe too often. By this sort of logic, baby Anakin is the Chosen One and MUST destroy the Sith. Ergo, he wrecks all Sith Lords who come his way, except Obi-Wan.
Really. How stupid is that logic?
You are right that Nihilus' personal eating power is unbelievable, but Sidious force storm was said to be the most powerful dark side ability to date. Not to mention Nihilus can't eat what he can't sense..
Right, because Nihilus can't see Sidious right in front of him. Apparently he sees at a cosmic scale like Traya said.... oh wait, OMFG teh thurd partie r teh failabble!!!111
Seriously, stop eating paste and wake up. Sidious is NOT going to conjure a Force ability which requires concentration and effort and oh, TIME in a small room (especially when said ability oh, rips space and time) while Sion and Nihilus are trying to make his balls into cufflinks.
Escape:
There is no reason to be petty, Janus. If you're going to take the rest of us down this dark corridor, you might want to make sure that you turn on all of the lights; you might trip on something.
I'm hardly being petty. I feel I have a right to correct gross-assumption when I see it. Clearly you do too, or you wouldn't be replying.
Would you like to debate this? Aside from failing to put one source into proper context, I would also point out that the Galactic Emperor isn't the only other source of his own superiority over the other Dark Lords. Since you're much more of an interesting opponent than Nebaris here, I'd be willing to take the time to argue this.
I'm not. I've never made the assertion that Sidious > all. Therefore I don't have to prove it.
Based on what? Your say-so? No, I don't think so, Janus. While Darth Sion has been able to "butcher Jedi masters like its his job", you have not substantiated this to make it worthwhile. Darth Sidious, on the other hand, butchered three of the "finest swordsmen in the order's history" in less than a minute and held Count Dooku in servile submission for over a decade. That alone puts him well beyond your interpretation of Sion's acquired skill; that the Exile was able to manipulate him into abandoning his immortality speaks very well for the likelihood that Darth Sidious would easily be able to do the same -- especially since the New Essential Guide to the Force makes it very clear that the Emperor was well aware of the events that occured on Malachor V.So, I'm afraid not. Of the two, only Nihilus could compete in terms of power.
1. Sion really did butcher Jedi Masters like his job. Or did you not play KotOR II? He's directly responsible for the murder of exiled and hiding Jedi, and he kills Master Vash on Korriban. It's not the feat so much as the fact that he's obviously not some low-rung goon with a lightsaber and no talent.
2. Finest swordsman in the order's history, taken literally by yourself because it fits your argument, seems to contradict the movie representation of the fight (Which is itself ultimate canon according to Leland Chee). If the order's finest stand around and let M. Bison stab them with all the warning in the world, then the order by this sort of logic must be pathetic. Is that also your assertion?
3. So Count Dooku calling him master means he can by extention beat Darth Sion in a fight? Shit, let me try that. Ragnos had the entire Sith race including its Sith Lords in "servile submission". Ragnos beats everybody.
4. I'm sure T3-M4 knows what happened at Malachor V too. Wait, maybe he can take on Sion and Nihilus too. Apparently being aware of a past event makes you the master of all that occured there. No wonder I seek to become a history teacher.
LS:
Are you going to continue ignoring all the evidence now that this much time as past? It's gotten very old
Where is the "evidence"? LFL has yet to make a claim that Sidious is the best of all time. In-universe claims and your own personal assertions don't really replace official doctrine.
How many times do I have to correct you here? Luke is described as a Saber master in Dark Empire and in other sources, we know he and Palpatine became avatars of the respective sides of the Force. Just like ganner, just like Jacen, a state of practical invincibility.
So really, spare me the downplaying
I'm sorry, it's just that the entire scenario seems pretty uh... silly to me? Sidious is the best Dark Lord of all time, most powerful, most uber, most perfect... And he's overcome by the non-trained Leia, a baby, and Luke "I ain't got the powers to control falling to the dark side" Skywalker. That's a bit like being lobbed into a reactor shaft by a cripple who's over six feet tall. I mean, really. Talk about blunders.
.... Skipping some parts here, because this argument is becoming yet another "Sidious is the best, if you disagree with this you are our mortal enemy" type argument, and I wasn't really hoping for one of those. It's sort of impossible NOT to have one though, with the folks around here.
Back to tdtd:
To add one more thing. If you are going to ignore the MYRIADS of sources claiming Palpatine is #1 due to some loophole or your biased interpretation, realize that the Ancient Sith themselves called him the strongest of them all.
This from a poster who has yet to ever make his own argument, provide accurate sources or proofs, or even realize when he's commiting logical mutilation.
Please, prove this or shut right up.
I'm hardly being petty. I feel I have a right to correct gross-assumption when I see it. Clearly you do too, or you wouldn't be replying.
True, but the one, great difference between us is that only one of us has committed a gross-assumption and it isn't me.
I'm not. I've never made the assertion that Sidious > all. Therefore I don't have to prove it.
No one suggested that you did. However, you did neglect the numerous other sources that indicate the Emperor's superiority over all other Dark Lords of the Sith, and by doing so, you've resurrected the time-tried argument itself. Because you're not nearly as annoying as Nebaris, I'd be willing to take the time to argue the case against you, which will likely happen regardless if you keep posting to the contrary.
1. Sion really did butcher Jedi Masters like his job. Or did you not play KotOR II? He's directly responsible for the murder of exiled and hiding Jedi, and he kills Master Vash on Korriban. It's not the feat so much as the fact that he's obviously not some low-rung goon with a lightsaber and no talent.
1. No one here has denied that Darth Sion was responsible for the deaths of Jedi Masters. What we have denied is your implication that that somehow places him on a tier equal to or higher than the Emperor. Since you've failed to substantiate the relative potency of these so-called Jedi Masters and the circumstances in which they were defeated, you've essentially offered nothing to prove your point.
2. Finest swordsman in the order's history, taken literally by yourself because it fits your argument, seems to contradict the movie representation of the fight (Which is itself ultimate canon according to Leland Chee). If the order's finest stand around and let M. Bison stab them with all the warning in the world, then the order by this sort of logic must be pathetic. Is that also your assertion?
Oh, so there is a metaphorical side to the statement that they were among the "finest swordsmen in the Order's history"? Ah, yes. I suppose what the Revenge of the Sith novelization's narrator was a lust-filled female, and was making reference to their athletic bodies and handsome faces. I'd never considered that; though, of course, there is an excellent reason why: because it's stupid. My assertion is that George Lucas made it explicitly clear in the Making of Revenge of the Sith book that "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". This fact does not contradict or negate the skills of the other three.
3. So Count Dooku calling him master means he can by extention beat Darth Sion in a fight? Shit, let me try that. Ragnos had the entire Sith race including its Sith Lords in "servile submission". Ragnos beats everybody.
Ah, is that what this is all about? Are you still bearing the grudge that you went from "Ragnos is all-powerful!1!!!1!" to backpedaling and focusing all your efforts on merely keeping Sidious from ordained as the strongest? That would do it. Count Dooku calling him master and the veritable fear he felt of Darth Sidious would be a notch in his master's cap, as would fear from the Ancient Sith be a notch in Ragnos's.
4. I'm sure T3-M4 knows what happened at Malachor V too. Wait, maybe he can take on Sion and Nihilus too. Apparently being aware of a past event makes you the master of all that occured there. No wonder I seek to become a history teacher.
No. But being naturally more powerful than your foes and equipped with knowledge about them, where in contrast, they are completely ignorant of you would be a handy advantage.
True, but the one, great difference between us is that only one of us has committed a gross-assumption and it isn't me.
Right.
No one suggested that you did. However, you did neglect the numerous other sources that indicate the Emperor's superiority over all other Dark Lords of the Sith, and by doing so, you've resurrected the time-tried argument itself. Because you're not nearly as annoying as Nebaris, I'd be willing to take the time to argue the case against you, which will likely happen regardless if you keep posting to the contrary.
What sources? Why is no one able to cite these sources? So apparently because everyone on KMC says it and no one has yet to cite an infallible source, I am somehow resurrecting an argument?
Yeah, here's my argument: If you guys don't prove up, then I guess you can't really make a claim, huh? Conclusion: your assertion is unsubstantiated.
1. No one here has denied that Darth Sion was responsible for the deaths of Jedi Masters. What we have denied is your implication that that somehow places him on a tier equal to or higher than the Emperor. Since you've failed to substantiate the relative potency of these so-called Jedi Masters and the circumstances in which they were defeated, you've essentially offered nothing to prove your point.
No one here has really indicated why Sion has to be on a higher tier or equal to RotS Sidious to butcher him alongside Nihilus in a small room.
Oh, so there is a metaphorical side to the statement that they were among the "finest swordsmen in the Order's history"? Ah, yes. I suppose what the Revenge of the Sith novelization's narrator was a lust-filled female, and was making reference to their athletic bodies and handsome faces. I'd never considered that; though, of course, there is an excellent reason why: because it's stupid. My assertion is that George Lucas made it explicitly clear in the Making of Revenge of the Sith book that "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". This fact does not contradict or negate the skills of the other three.
1. Seriously, if you can't tell those supposed "finest swordsman" sucked, then you must see only what you want. It's so damn evident it should be called the Jedi Trio Axiom. No defense, only one of them managed to touch blades with the Emperor. Nowhere near on the level of any of the major players in the series. Even AotC Obi-Wan showed more prowess.
2. GL also said something offhand in a commentary that Anakin probably scarred himself by falling in the bathtub. zomFG teh kannon!111
Ah, is that what this is all about? Are you still bearing the grudge that you went from "Ragnos is all-powerful!1!!!1!" to backpedaling and focusing all your efforts on merely keeping Sidious from ordained as the strongest? That would do it. Count Dooku calling him master and the veritable fear he felt of Darth Sidious would be a notch in his master's cap, as would fear from the Ancient Sith be a notch in Ragnos's.
Actually, I'm not out to prove a damn thing about Ragnos. I just thought I'd use that bit to rile you up since your assertion was clearly not well thought out. Servitude does not equate inferiority in personal combat in every case. A horse can easily trample a rider.
No. But being naturally more powerful than your foes and equipped with knowledge about them, where in contrast, they are completely ignorant of you would be a handy advantage.
Oh yes, because Sidious is officially more powerful according to LFL and he knows everything about his opponents whereas they are ignorant sods who would throw themselves on their own swords.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Right.
I was expecting a world-class comeback. Not your best, Janus.
What sources? Why is no one able to cite these sources? So apparently because everyone on KMC says it and no one has yet to cite an infallible source, I am somehow resurrecting an argument?
Take the needle out of your arm, throw the syringe away, and pay attention. This thread did not start out as a platform for me to laud Emperor Palpatine's superiority or to protect the status quo. I didn't come here bearing sources until I am convinced that you'd be willing to participate in a debate.
Yeah, here's my argument: If you guys don't prove up, then I guess you can't really make a claim, huh? Conclusion: your assertion is unsubstantiated.
Can I take this as "Yes, Gideon, I'd love to debate this with you"?
No one here has really indicated why Sion has to be on a higher tier or equal to RotS Sidious to butcher him alongside Nihilus in a small room.
Because, otherwise, he's going to be deposited in the nearest trash recepticle, allowing Sidious to move onto Nihilus. I would use the expression "distraction" to describe Sion, but I believe that's an act of veritable charity; I'm not feeling generous.
1. Seriously, if you can't tell those supposed "finest swordsman" sucked, then you must see only what you want. It's so damn evident it should be called the Jedi Trio Axiom. No defense, only one of them managed to touch blades with the Emperor. Nowhere near on the level of any of the major players in the series. Even AotC Obi-Wan showed more prowess.
1. Seriously, if you can't tell that your opinion doesn't really matter when it contradicts a higher authority (this would be canon), then you must suffer from selective vision. What the movie shows is that Windu's companions cannot compete with the Emperor, in agreement with Lucas's own words and design. The novelization (a G-canon source) confirms their status amongst the greatest of the great. Since you once used a line from Dark Rendezvous to establish Count Dooku on a level with Mace Windu in terms of swordplay, I think it's only fair that I get to do the same with a statement issued by an even higher authority. Unless you've become a full blown hypocrite since your hiatus.
2. GL also said something offhand in a commentary that Anakin probably scarred himself by falling in the bathtub. zomFG teh kannon!111
Another disappointment. Should I let you go, and you can come back with something funnier in the morning? Really, Janus, your mockery (I'm referring to both this line and the majority of your unsubstantiated argument) doesn't change facts. George Lucas = canon. As I recall, you seemed to understand that best once Ushgarak interpreted it for you. I'm sure he's willing to do it again, but I personally won't. You know better.
Actually, I'm not out to prove a damn thing about Ragnos
I wouldn't be out to perform a task, either, if it were impossible. Can't hardly blame you.
I just thought I'd use that bit to rile you up since your assertion was clearly not well thought out. Servitude does not equate inferiority in personal combat in every case. A horse can easily trample a rider.
Ah, yes, the color-blind pot calling the kettle black. Very effective, Janus. We can get into Count Dooku's remarkable fear of Darth Sidious. Would you like to?
Oh yes, because Sidious is officially more powerful according to LFL and he knows everything about his opponents whereas they are ignorant sods who would throw themselves on their own swords.
They wouldn't have to throw themselves. I'm sure he could manage just fine. 😉
I was expecting a world-class comeback. Not your best, Janus.
It provoked you to make the above reply. I post "right", and you feel compelled to elaborate on it. Who's being petty?
Take the needle out of your arm, throw the syringe away, and pay attention. This thread did not start out as a platform for me to laud Emperor Palpatine's superiority or to protect the status quo.
Really? That's what it appears to be. Perhaps if you were more objective and thorough, it might appear different. But instead you and LS (and Me Too/tdtd) descend on the comment like hungry dogs on a hare. It's a bit like sand-blasting a soup cracker for all the effort it's worth to get you all to spontaneously run and defend Sidious.
I didn't come here bearing sources until I am convinced that you'd be willing to participate in a debate.
So basically you refuse to prove your assertion? Does it matter if I remain and "participate" to your liking? I could act like a total asshat and it shouldn't matter. If you have a valid point, you should prove it using your reason and resources. Otherwise, don't make wild, unsupported assumptions.
Because, otherwise, he's going to be deposited in the nearest trash recepticle, allowing Sidious to move onto Nihilus. I would use the expression "distraction" to describe Sion, but I believe that's an act of veritable charity; I'm not feeling generous.
You're also debating on a level worthy of tdtd; throwing out unsupported assumptions, sweeping generalizations, and blatant fanboyism here.
1. Seriously, if you can't tell that your opinion doesn't really matter when it contradicts a higher authority (this would be canon), then you must suffer from selective vision.
You may select one of the following:
A- Prove how those three are verifiably "the finest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history" according to the highest source of canon (The films, as Leland Chee says we must "always look to first"😉 without using some literal word you read elsewhere.
or
B- Stop making unsupported, nondefendable assertions.
What the movie shows is that Windu's companions cannot compete with the Emperor, in agreement with Lucas's own words and design. The novelization (a G-canon source) confirms their status amongst the greatest of the great. Since you once used a line from Dark Rendezvous to establish Count Dooku on a level with Mace Windu in terms of swordplay, I think it's only fair that I get to do the same with a statement issued by an even higher authority. Unless you've become a full blown hypocrite since your hiatus.
You seem to be, ah, forgetting something here though. My point about Count Dooku is basically C-canon which is in turn backed up by more C-canon as I recall from our previous argument.
You are basically saying that a novel which defies the movie (read: highest canon) is somehow equally or more valid than that which it is drawn from. Which is plain stupid.
Another disappointment. Should I let you go, and you can come back with something funnier in the morning? Really, Janus, your mockery (I'm referring to both this line and the majority of your unsubstantiated argument) doesn't change facts. George Lucas = canon. As I recall, you seemed to understand that best once Ushgarak interpreted it for you. I'm sure he's willing to do it again, but I personally won't. You know better.
You see to fail to understand something very vital to your entire argument:
Literalism does not dictate reason.
GL has said that pretty much in the film only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious. Yeah. BFD. He didn't say "Only Mace or Yoda may ever defeat the Emperor ever in all situations.", so the statement is not specific enough to warrant the attention you give it.
Secondly, GL has said that he hasn't given any real thought as to how Anakin got his scar and that he supposes he got it falling in the tub. Cuz you know, prodigious Jedi fall in the tub all the time and get scar-lines.
Seriously, think about the whimsical nature of the word you take literally for once, and don't be a parrot.
Ah, yes, the color-blind pot calling the kettle black. Very effective, Janus. We can get into Count Dooku's remarkable fear of Darth Sidious. Would you like to?
Again, the point stands. Sidious being Dooku's master does NOT equate to him being better than Sion and Nihilus. Stay on topic please; don't rehash old arguments.
They wouldn't have to throw themselves. I'm sure he could manage just fine.
Yeah, let's hope they use some of the 'finest' skills ever displayed and stand there like tools.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
It provoked you to make the above reply. I post "right", and you feel compelled to elaborate on it. Who's being petty?
I'm hardly being petty. I feel that I have a right to comment when a notoriously witty debater such as yourself, who admittedly attempted to "provoke" me with a comment about Marka Ragnos, suddenly has a drought of humor and can only respond with "right".
Oh, c'mon, Janus. You're better than this.
Really? That's what it appears to be. Perhaps if you were more objective and thorough, it might appear different. But instead you and LS (and Me Too/tdtd) descend on the comment like hungry dogs on a hare. It's a bit like sand-blasting a soup cracker for all the effort it's worth to get you all to spontaneously run and defend Sidious.
You and I can argue, all night, which one of us is the more objective. I could bring up how you (had to pause to stifle the laughter) once argued that Count Dooku > Darth Sidious, and I'm sure you could try to bring up some logical hiccup that I've made, and you've got your friends to vouch for you, and I've got mine. The fact remains that if I were really adamant about "defending Sidious", I wouldn't have posted with the statement that he would very well lose this match, now would I? Tell me, when was the last time you've done that with Ragnos? 😉
So basically you refuse to prove your assertion? Does it matter if I remain and "participate" to your liking?
Of course it does. I'm not going to waste my time, preparing a considerable defense for Darth Sidious if it's going to be promptly and completely ignored. You're not the only one with a life around here, Janus.
I could act like a total asshat and it shouldn't matter.
Oh, but that would be so unlike you.
If you have a valid point, you should prove it using your reason and resources. Otherwise, don't make wild, unsupported assumptions.
Janus, buddy, you seem to be avoiding the question. If you're willing to participate in the debate, I'll happily provide all the proof you need. 😉
You're also debating on a level worthy of tdtd; throwing out unsupported assumptions, sweeping generalizations, and blatant fanboyism here.
Yes. Blatant fanboyism. Which is why I made the above post with the statement that Sidious would likely lose this match. You've stumbled upon a complex scheme of mine (made in an inSidious fashion!) that involves tossing out red herrings to throw off the fact that I am a rabid Sidious fanboy. Your deductive skills are as keen as ever, Janus.
You may select one of the following:
I'm a glutton; I'll take them all.
A- Prove how those three are verifiably "the finest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history" according to the highest source of canon (The films, as Leland Chee says we must "always look to first"😉 without using some literal word you read elsewhere.
Gone from numbers to letters? Okay.
A - The novelization explicitly states that the trio are among the Order's finest swordsmen. The novelization corroborates the movie and adds perspective to the narrative that remains untouched in the cinema. Ergo, it still applies.
orB- Stop making unsupported, nondefendable assertions.
I'm sorry, someone's apparently gone and confused our orders. This one's clearly yours, do you perhaps have my real one?
You seem to be, ah, forgetting something here though. My point about Count Dooku is basically C-canon which is in turn backed up by more C-canon as I recall from our previous argument.
I forget nothing. G-canon > c-canon. G-canon > 2(c-canon). G-canon > you.
You are basically saying that a novel which defies the movie (read: highest canon) is somehow equally or more valid than that which it is drawn from. Which is plain stupid.
Er... no. I'm basically saying that the novel, which defines the movie, offers more narrative than the movie, and applies because the movie does not contradict it.
You see to fail to understand something very vital to your entire argument:Literalism does not dictate reason.
GL has said that pretty much in the film only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious. Yeah. BFD. He didn't say "Only Mace or Yoda may ever defeat the Emperor ever in all situations.", so the statement is not specific enough to warrant the attention you give it.
Actually, Janus, the quote was: "YOU HAVE TO BE MACE OR YODA TO COMPETE WITH THE EMPEROR."
...No other names are mentioned, no loophole, no wriggle room. But if you could pick up Nebaris's 101 Tips For Failed Semantics Arguments, it might offer you some clever ways to screw up further.
Secondly, GL has said that he hasn't given any real thought as to how Anakin got his scar and that he supposes he got it falling in the tub. Cuz you know, prodigious Jedi fall in the tub all the time and get scar-lines.
Kind've like how all-powerful Sith Lords abandon their source of power when little girls tell them that their mother-figure doesn't like them anymore.
Seriously, think about the whimsical nature of the word you take literally for once, and don't be a parrot.
Now, now. Just because we're fighting doesn't mean that the whole Animal Kingdom has to be brought into this. Keep it civil, Janus.
Again, the point stands. Sidious being Dooku's master does NOT equate to him being better than Sion and Nihilus. Stay on topic please; don't rehash old arguments.
Actually, the point falls. That Sidious held Dooku in a rather pathetic state of fear for the duration of their relationship suggests an intense domination over the aged former Jedi.
Yeah, let's hope they use some of the 'finest' skills ever displayed and stand there like tools.
It would be an improvement to their current status, wouldn't it? They'd certainly do more damage.