AOTC Dooku Vs Darth Revan

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I guess you forgot Revan plundered Korriban and Malachor V. Dooku stands NO chance in the force.

I don't see how that proves anything. Dooku had 80 years learning the ways of the force and spent over 5 years as apprentice to the greatest Sith master there ever was. Yoda spoke highly of Dooku, and he was a tremendously huge loss to the Jedi.

Unless you can offer definitive proof Revan knew more about the force than an accomplished and very talented 80 year veteran, the caliber of Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's anti Revan rhetoric for you. Very few force users are above Revan. His knowledge was incredibly broad and based on evidence, his force abilities were beyond Dookus.

I don't see how I suggested that many people are above Revan. But 'few', in the context of millions of Jedi through the ages could be as high as 100 and as low as 5.

I think Dooku would have been Revan's superior in the force if they were in the same era IMO. It's only that Dooku was in the greatest era of Jedi, an era that had force giants like Yoda, Anakin and Palpatine.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't see how that proves anything. Dooku had 80 years learning the ways of the force and spent over 5 years as apprentice to the greatest Sith master there ever was. Yoda spoke highly of Dooku, and he was a tremendously huge loss to the Jedi.

Unless you can offer definitive proof Revan knew more about the force than an accomplished and very talented 80 year veteran, the caliber of Dooku.

I think Dooku would have been Revan's superior in the force if they were in the same era IMO. It's only that Dooku was in the greatest era of Jedi, an era that had force giants like Yoda, Anakin and Palpatine.

Your opinion holds no water though.

Originally posted by 0°Mandalore°0
I'd say Malak was not skill-less, but not as powerful as some people might think. And, yeah, what's that bullshit about Revan cutting off Malak's jaw? You just made that up yourself, didn't you, Exodus?

He is certainly not skill-less but I would say he is no count Dooku and anakin skywalker with a lightsaber. He could not kill Revan on the leviathan, as a jedi Mandalore was able to counter his attack on the "Legacy" ship,he lost his jaw,lost to Revan on the star forge. I think he is stronger in the force than with a lightsaber. And Exodus obviously made it up.

Yes, I agree... but it was probably harder for Revan. Malak was already too corrupted to care, Revan on the other hand, was fighting against his ex-best friend. Although, it probably wasn't the same since he had his memory wipe..

It is, but we just can't take away the possibility of Revan winning in a saber duel. After all, his dark side knowledge was vast.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't have to prove Revan knew more. Facts show Revan knew more. Revan pillaged ancient sith worlds and had broader knowledge than even Exar Kun.

And the some of the feats performed by kun surpasses that of revan.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't have to prove Revan knew more. Facts show Revan knew more. Revan pillaged ancient sith worlds and had broader knowledge than even Exar Kun. YOU have to prove Dooku was even near Revan in force abilities. Nobody cares how long Dooku trained for. Yoda was 800 years old when he couldn't defeat a 60 year old Sidious. Nobody cares how highly Yoda spoke of Dooku either.

So no evidence.

I know the facts. I know Revan pillaged some worlds of their dark side artifacts, but how does that equate to 80 years of studying the force? Are you saying Revan's knowledge was more than the sum total of all the knowledge available to Dooku in his 80 years?

Are you saying Dooku didn't have access to large stores of knowledge in his era (first through the Jedi archives and then through Sidious)? Are you trying to say his 80 yrs of studying in the ways of the force are nothing in comparison to Revan's much fewer years?

Are you trying to see the logic here? Revan pillaged Korriban and Malachor as a Sith and that didn't last very long (he didn't even have half a decade as a Sith Lord under him before getting captured by the Jedi).

EDIT:Lastly, a lot of Revan's stolen artifacts were beyond his possesion once he was captured by the Jedi, meaning he didn't have enough time to learn all there was, unless you think otherwise which would mean that the knowledge he attained wasn't all that much if he was able to learn it in such a short time.

Way too many assumptions on Revan based on unquantifiable info. Dooku take this, via his superiority in sabers.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
YOU have to prove Dooku was even near Revan in force abilities. Nobody cares how long Dooku trained for. Yoda was 800 years old when he couldn't defeat a 60 year old Sidious.

He was stronger in the force than his peers (by how much? we can't tell). He was stronger than Malak while he was aided by the starforge (again unquantifiable given that Malak was weaker in the force). Beyond this what do you know about Revan's force power?

Dooku had enough power to hold his own against two powerful Jedi Knights of the highest caliber in Obi Wan and Anakin. He was even able to overpower the crafty and relatively powerful Obi Wan with TK in the middle of the duel.

He was strong enough to toy with a dangerous Dark Jedi like Asajj Ventress. He was able to hold his own with Yoda even after a tiring battle with Obi Wan and Anakin in AOTC. At least we can gauge Dooku's strength fairly accurately. Revan: just wishful thinking and assumptions.

Palpatine just happens to be one of the force giants I mentioned earlier, he's an exception not the rule.

Originally posted by Allankles
So no evidence.

I know the facts. I know Revan pillaged some worlds of their dark side artifacts, but how does that equate to 80 years of studying the force? Are you saying Revan's knowledge was more than the sum total of all the knowledge available to Dooku in his 80 years?

EDIT:Lastly, a lot of Revan's stolen artifacts were beyond his possesion once he was captured by the Jedi, meaning he didn't have enough time to learn all there was, unless you think otherwise which would mean that the knowledge he attained wasn't all that much if he was able to learn it in such a short time.

Except you're not an authority on how long it would take Revan to learn something.

Originally posted by Allankles
Way too many assumptions on Revan based on unquantifiable info. Dooku take this, via his superiority in sabers.

Yea, sadly this is all Dooku is superior to Revan in. Revan takes force+overall battle.

Originally posted by Allankles
He was stronger in the force than his peers (by how much? we can't tell). He was stronger than Malak while he was aided by the starforge (again unquantifiable given that Malak was weaker in the force). Beyond this what do you know about Revan's force power?

Palpatine just happens to be one of the force giants I mentioned earlier, he's an exception not the rule.

So is Revan.

Yet exar kuns broad knowledge of sith alchemy and sith magic surpasses revan so that pretty much makes them equal.

In a word, ah... no.

Originally posted by Janus Marius

In a word, ah... no.

It's very tough to judge who:

A. Has more offensive force powers
B. Who has a broader range of force powers
C. Who has achieved more force mastery
D. Etc...

This debate will go around in circles..

Originally posted by Janus Marius

In a word, ah... no.

Really? When has revan ever been shown with enough knowledge on sith magic and alchemy to create tarentateks, beasts or stun possibly hunderds and thousands of senators? Thats why i assumed exars knowledge of alchemy and magic > that of revan while vice versa happens when we bring in force knowledge.

You guys are getting off topic.
Revan Plundered the Ancient Sith worlds. Revan Killed a Star Forge fuelled malak, Revan won the Mandalorian War (mandalorians are WAY tougher then clones (maybe not commandos) and droids) Revan Saved the galaxy from a Nigh unstoppable sith threat (the star forge and the vast supply of Malak's Ships)

Secondly; you have no knowledge of how long Tyrranus trained, and you have no knowledge of how long Revan trained. By canon storyline, we can defenitely see alot more training on Revan's part. seriously, he Trained and surpassed the Period Jedi knowledge, fell to the darkside on malachor five during the Mandalorian war, learned and grew in darkside knowledge as he Lead the republic against losing odds to victory against the Mandalorian threat. He was then memory wiped and grew in power again to surpass the capabilities of the period Jedi, Killed all available Sith on the star forge, and killed a star forge fueled Bastilla, and Malak.

Later in the Darth Bane novels, Revan was shown to have invented "the thought bomb"

Count Dooku Didnt train for 80 years, he was a Jedi and then a sith for a combined time of 83 years. He probably only trained during the time he was a jedi, and then picked up battle experience during the clone wars.

One thing I would like to point out is that "years" are a "earth" time unit. a year is the ammount of time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun once...

In the star wars galaxy, there would be different times for this to happen varrying from planet to planet and from system to system, so every single system would have almost 9 different lengths that could be called years....

So before you say "Dooku is the PWNZRZ HE LIVED FOR LIKE 90 YEARS!!!!" realize that this is a major inconsistency and a contradiction in the SW universe....

And as someone said before, 800 years had yoda trained jedi, but unable he was, to defeat maybe a 70 year old palpatine, the dark lord of the sith. This totally screws up any arguement you have as to how long dooku trained having anything to do with this fight...

and no, if I made one minor mistake in my arguement such as the thought bomb was just found on his holocron, not invented by him, you are not allowed to jump on me and call me a noob with horrible debating skills and noobiness beyond your knowledge

Originally posted by 0°Mandalore°0

It is, but we just can't take away the possibility of Revan winning in a saber duel. After all, his dark side knowledge was vast.

So true, just because there is nothing about revan's skills and no lightsaber cutscenes involving him in the game, doesnt mean he was lightsaber incompetent, it just means that they didnt show that material.

SO many people think that because there is no knowledge of such, then it must not be...

I mean, he might not be as skilled as palpatine or yoda, but at least give him a little lightsaber credit, I mean he should have benefit of the doubt as far as lightsaber skills go, just because of how high revan traversed in force power and experience.

First off, QUIT triple posting and use the edit button.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
You guys are getting off topic.
Revan Plundered the Ancient Sith worlds. Revan Killed a Star Forge fuelled malak,

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Revan won the Mandalorian War

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

(mandalorians are WAY tougher then clones (maybe not commandos) and droids)

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Revan Saved the galaxy from a Nigh unstoppable sith threat (the star forge and the vast supply of Malak's Ships)

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Secondly; you have no knowledge of how long Tyrranus trained, and you have no knowledge of how long Revan trained.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

By canon storyline, we can defenitely see alot more training on Revan's part.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

seriously, he Trained and surpassed the Period Jedi knowledge, fell to the darkside on malachor five during the Mandalorian war, learned and grew in darkside knowledge as he Lead the republic against losing odds to victory against the Mandalorian threat. He was then memory wiped and grew in power again to surpass the capabilities of the period Jedi, Killed all available Sith on the star forge, and killed a star forge fueled Bastilla, and Malak.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Later in the Darth Bane novels, Revan was shown to have invented "the thought bomb"

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Count Dooku Didnt train for 80 years, he was a Jedi and then a sith for a combined time of 83 years. He probably only trained during the time he was a jedi, and then picked up battle experience during the clone wars.

And who said you only get powerful through battle? Sidious barely fought people yet he was labeled the most powerful sith lord ever and easily dispatched 3 of the greatest swordsman in 25 000 years of the jedi history and went head to head with yoda whom was stated to be the most powerful lightsider surpassing that of revan.

You fail

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

One thing I would like to point out is that "years" are a "earth" time unit. a year is the ammount of time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun once...

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

In the star wars galaxy, there would be different times for this to happen varrying from planet to planet and from system to system, so every single system would have almost 9 different lengths that could be called years....

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

So before you say "Dooku is the PWNZRZ HE LIVED FOR LIKE 90 YEARS!!!!" realize that this is a major inconsistency and a contradiction in the SW universe....

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

And as someone said before, 800 years had yoda trained jedi, but unable he was, to defeat maybe a 70 year old palpatine, the dark lord of the sith.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

This totally screws up any arguement you have as to how long dooku trained having anything to do with this fight...

Seriously, the only thing good you provided is "revan plundered ancient sith worlds". Thats all you need to say, the other things are irrelevant.

Unless you can offer definitive proof Revan knew more about the force than an accomplished and very talented 80 year veteran, the caliber of Dooku.

Revan knew stuff that even Bane was scared to try. He says that that world destroying was one of the weaker attacks known by Revan.

I know the facts. I know Revan pillaged some worlds of their dark side artifacts, but how does that equate to 80 years of studying the force? Are you saying Revan's knowledge was more than the sum total of all the knowledge available to Dooku in his 80 years?

Are you saying Dooku didn't have access to large stores of knowledge in his era (first through the Jedi archives and then through Sidious)? Are you trying to say his 80 yrs of studying in the ways of the force are nothing in comparison to Revan's much fewer years?

What you fail to realise is that Revan was a super-genius who almost took over the galaxy in 2 years. Dooku on the other hand had a crappy master plan that equates to : trust Anakin Skywalker.
Face it, He was a Racist, senile moron.

And yes i only guessed the jaw thing but come on!!! Its pretty obvious. Who else has the skill to own Malak so badly in a fight. And it would explain why Malak hates Revan so much and is very Sithly.

I'd love to see you prove it seeing that clones have far superior armor and technology and the very fact that they are much stronger than mandalorian troopers.

100 mandos= an army of clones.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Revan knew stuff that even Bane was scared to try.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

He says that that [b]world destroying was one of the weaker attacks known by Revan. [/B]

You LIE as usual.

So your basically saying exar's knowledge on sith alchemy clearly does not surpass that of revan and perhaps inferior?

Yes.

Exar Kun had six months to go over his sith lore that pretty much comes from whatever Naga Sadow took with him on his ship into exile or created after exile.

Revan's Sith knowledge comes from Malachor V, Korriban tombs, and probably even from this True Sith beyond known space.

Trayus Academy at Malachor especially should not be overlooked. It created some of the most deadly force users in the saga.

"It is ancient, a relic that survived the destruction of Malachor. It was always here, far before the Mandalorian Wars. It draws death and hate to it, channels it. Atrocities feed its power, and with its power, it creates hunger. Many Jedi have been consumed by it."

"It has been here for thousands of years. It is a place where Sith teachings run strong… It is the threshold of the borders of an ancient empire. Kreia says that it was a place of reflection for the ancient Sith… a gateway to their lands. It drew Lord Revan… and it calls to her as well. She said that the teachings here will lead one to the Sith… the true Sith… and all their shadowed worlds. This place led Revan to the graveyards of Korriban… and beyond."

-Sion.

That's pretty much conclusive to me. Malachor is a far better depot of knowledge then what Naga Sadow keeps in exile.

Really? When has revan ever been shown with enough knowledge on sith magic and alchemy to create tarentateks, beasts or stun possibly hunderds and thousands of senators?

When has not doing those feats made a Sith inferior to Kun? Ragnos did none of those feats and Kun was on his knees before him. Same with Nadd (Although Nadd did get pwned eventually). Kun's ability of mass freeze is impressive, though I didn't notice any Force users affected by it. Malak, Bastila, and even Juhani have shown this ability on a smaller scale, but affecting Force users. There's a good chance that Kun would beat Revan thanks to his amulets, but I doubt his saber ability or his force ability is really easier to clarify then "best of his generation", and with all you hear and read about Revan, that's all you can tell about him too. I give Revan the benefit of the doubt because he was older, a Jedi Knight (Possibly master) by the time he went to the Mandalorian Wars, he plundered more Sith Lore than Kun ever had access to; he had over three years to work on it, and he clearly has a highly intelligent mind and "thirst for knowledge" as his Jedi teachers always whined about. Couple that with the fact that Kun's force legacy consists of a hacked up ritual he didn't fully understand and being able to force choke children in the future, Revan's holocron which he carelessly left on the floor of the Ratakan temple made the future Darth Bane shit his pants, and Darth Bane himself was pretty uber.

So yeah, Revan > Exar Kun in potential Sith lore and power by virtue of the above observations. But until BioWare gets off their ass and stops making Mass Effect 2, we may never know the truth.

Thats why i assumed exars knowledge of alchemy and magic > that of revan while vice versa happens when we bring in force knowledge.

Never assume without a good argument to back it up, because it gets ugly. Especially at KMC.