AOTC Dooku Vs Darth Revan

Originally posted by Janus Marius

LK, since when did any of those above Sith Lords attempt to use the Star Forge. Or why would they even need to? Sion preferred to hunt his opponents in the shadows, and Nihilus could eat planets himself. Traya could care less about ship power, she preferred to manipulate. Since when have any of them ever tried to use it and failed?

They didn't. Ergo, your point does not hold water.

what about the darkside powers? it woulda made one hellofa stronghold/hq

and who would man the ships?

must admit, when i wrote this down i wasnt thinking of why they would even want to try the star forge....

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Ivalice, since when is a sweeping generalization enough to support itself? So "Golden Age of the Sith Empire" means all other Sith Empires are silver at best? "Most powerful" should be twisted to fit the argument of those using it?

I fail to see what the problem is, Janus, especially when the "sweeping generalization" is issued by a canon source. These statements aren't thrown around arbitrarily, and one must assume that they are included for a purpose. As far as the "Golden Age of the Sith Empire", if that statement is indeed correct, it clearly means that -- at the point that that quote was issued -- the Sith Empire in question was at its peak, be it in productivity, numbers, acquired power. If you're referring to the time of Marka Ragnos, it would also apply, as the Sith were highly numerous and in control of immensely powerful Force arcana, as well as isolated from their enemies where their knowledge could not be stolen, plundered, or lost.

Out of curiosity, other than Revan's "Sith Empire" (does it count? Weren't he and Malak the only true 'Sith Lords' in the entire regime), what other Sith Empires exist that would compare?

Count Dooku is mentioned as one of the most learned and skilled Jedi in many generations, true, but this doesn't make him the bonafide best among every single Jedi save Yoda who's been born in the last 25 k years by virtue of a sweeping statement. That's just silly.

Why is it silly, Janus? Once again, the generalizations you speak of are canon statements. They very much apply unless they are contradicted by a higher source or are retconned. As it so happens, Yoda refers to Dooku as the Jedi Temple's "most learned student", the Complete Visual Dictionary refers to him as "the greatest" of the Lost Twenty due to his "strength in the Force" -- so he has been compared to some of the oldest Jedi and it is the conclusion of the LFL authorities that he exceeds many of them. Please give us a reason why we should not take these statements into consideration.

Originally posted by Gideon
[B]I fail to see what the problem is, Janus, especially when the "sweeping generalization" is issued by a canon source. These statements aren't thrown around arbitrarily, and one must assume that they are included for a purpose. As far as the "Golden Age of the Sith Empire", if that statement is indeed correct, it clearly means that -- at the point that that quote was issued -- the Sith Empire in question was at its peak, be it in productivity, numbers, acquired power. If you're referring to the time of Marka Ragnos, it would also apply, as the Sith were highly numerous and in control of immensely powerful Force arcana, as well as isolated from their enemies where their knowledge could not be stolen, plundered, or lost.

Out of curiosity, other than Revan's "Sith Empire" (does it count? Weren't he and Malak the only true 'Sith Lords' in the entire regime), what other Sith Empires exist that would compare?

I would like to see this "sweeping generalization statement" right here, as a direct quote.

does it say "among the greatest?" or "the greatest?" that among defenitely is relevant, so NEVER forget it.

Please give us a reason why we should not take these statements into consideration.

ill do my damnest.

As it so happens, Yoda refers to Dooku as the Jedi Temple's "most learned student",

Most learned student. among whom? does this mean every jedi student? ones yoda has trained? among all of the students at coruscaunt? this greatly depends on the context, intention of the writers, and at what time this was said (was it said to luke, or tpm anakin?). was he the most learned student among ones such as obi wan and qui gonn? when was this said, what what was the context, and out of who did he mean to call him the greatest? i am forced to believe that he meant during the time that he was a padawan, in which case, he would have been the greatest, being peered by ones as qui gon jinn.

so he has been compared to some of the oldest Jedi and it is the conclusion of the LFL authorities that he exceeds many of them.

substantiate. who compared him? when did the lfl authorities say this? where? does this mean i can compare all i want and then go use it in a debate?

other then that i agree. he exceeds many of the old jedi including (but not limited to) bastila, juhani, jolee, visas, zayne, and many others.

once again, this says nothing, there were countless worthless old jedi...

the Complete Visual Dictionary refers to him as "the greatest" of the Lost Twenty due to his "strength in the Force"

Perhaps I missed something, Ivalice, but Exodus is saying the controlling of the Star Forge is reflective of Revan's Force mastery and power considering he didn't get "ate". If he claimed anything else (Like Revan can make an entire Leviathan pop out of his cloak), then yes, that would be ridiculous.

Thanks Janus, no I wasn't claiming that but I should apologise for not being more clear. I was claiming that it spoke volumes about Revans sheer power and mastery. However, Revan might have had a hand in creating those Ships , if only to manipulate the controls, like pushing a button but with the force and on a bigger scale, I can't tell though so I'll drop that line of speculation.

Out of curiosity, other than Revan's "Sith Empire" (does it count? Weren't he and Malak the only true 'Sith Lords' in the entire regime), what other Sith Empires exist that would compare?

Palpatines?

I don't have to name any one moron, considering the fact that the quote itself already states he is more powerful than most jedi in the entire history.

Revan is definately not most jedi. And a history of unknowns means jack when the highest level of contender that we see for Dooku is Githany

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Thanks Janus, no I wasn't claiming that but I should apologise for not being more clear. I was claiming that it spoke volumes about Revans sheer power and mastery. However, Revan might have had a hand in creating those Ships , if only to manipulate the controls, like pushing a button but with the force and on a bigger scale, I can't tell though so I'll drop that line of speculation.

I doubt it, I seem to remember hearing that Revan tried to limit his contact with the star forge so he wouldn't get dependent on it. I would have to remember who said it, but it still pop into my mind.

Palpatines?

Revan is definately not most jedi. And a history of unknowns means jack when the highest level of contender that we see for Dooku is Githany

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Revan is definately not most jedi. And a history of unknowns means jack when the highest level of contender that we see for Dooku is Githany

HAH and githany a contender of dookus level? Highly unsupported.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Palpatines?

Hardly. Palpatine's Empire isn't considered a Sith empire simply because its supreme ruler was the reigning Sith master. Though, I will grant you, Palpatine's ultimate intention was to replace the Galactic Empire with his "Dark Empire", a theocracy based entirely on the dark side of the Force. However, that never came to fruitation due to his ultimate defeat 11 ABY.

Though the Empire made use of Sith philosophy and teachings, it was not overwhelmingly so, and the Empire's non-Force using personnel and hierarchy vastly outnumbered those who did.

How exactly is revan equating to most jedi? If you actually paid any attention which you clearly did not, i never claimed dooku > revan.

HAH and githany a contender of dookus level? Highly unsupported.

I was responding to the point that you seem to be fond of throwing around that Dooku's status of being one of the best evre somehow puts him above high contender's. To spell it out, simply being one of the best out of a history of trillions doesn't put you on top of Revan at all.
And the point of Githany was put in becuase, to my knowledge she is the only other Jedi to be one of the Lost 20 that we know of. Showing that Dooku doesn't have any competition in that area. She might have been a padawan though. Either way, we don't know anything about the Lost 20 so Dooku being the best of them doesn't count for jack.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I was responding to the point that you seem to be fond of throwing around that Dooku's status of being one of the best evre somehow puts him above high contender's. To spell it out, simply being one of the best out of a history of trillions doesn't put you on top of Revan at all.

While it's not certainly conclusive, I would point out that Count Dooku's revered and legendary status does function as an important indication of his abilities compared to previous Jedi Knights and Masters. The Complete Visual Dictionary states, point blank, that Dooku is considered "the most bitter loss of the Lost Twenty" due to "his strength in the Force". Likewise, the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes it clear that "he was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" and that he is "now an even greater Lord of the Sith", meaning that he is among the very best ever. That's indisputable.

So, I hope it isn't your intention to try to ignore this completely, otherwise I could be just as petty and point out that Revan being the best of his era means jack shit to a guy who is confirmed to have been one of the best compared to all eras.

The Complete Visual Dictionary states, point blank, that Dooku is considered "the most bitter loss of the Lost Twenty" due to "his strength in the Force".

As opposed to who? Githany? Anyone that we actually know of?

"he was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" and that he is "now an even greater Lord of the Sith", meaning that he is among the very best ever. That's indisputable.

The same is undoubtably so for Revan too.

So, I hope it isn't your intention to try to ignore this completely, otherwise I could be just as petty and point out that Revan being the best of his era means jack shit to a guy who is confirmed to have been one of the best compared to all eras.

The best is better than one of the best. While the statement undoubtably puts them in the same league, it doesn't make Dooku better. 'One of the best' could mean out of 20 or even 100, 'The best' can only mean number one.

Good thing Revan isn't "the best" then. Far from it in fact.
As has been pointed out zillions of times on these boards, "he knows lots of Sith shit" does not equate to "he is teh uberz". Especially since all that knowledge is unquantified except for the Thought Bomb (useless in a fight) and something else:
"He had discovered the ritual she spoke of while studying Revan's Holocron: a way to unite the minds and spirits of the Sith through a single vessel so their strength could be unleashed upon the physical world."

Apart from that, what do we really know about what Revan can do? Almost zilch.

As far as I can tell the known attacks are the force storm, and the thought bomb,though there were a few unnamed techniques that Bane was suppose to be scared to even try.

Like I said: unquantified and worthless powers in one-on-one fights.

The only one that he can arguably use one on one is the force storm not the ritual one of course.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
though there were a few unnamed techniques that Bane was suppose to be scared to even try.

And how exactly do we not know that that wasn't the case with Revan? With techniques like the Thought Storm, Bane wouldn't be alone in the category of people being too afraid to use them. Now we know that Revan possessed knowledge of such techniques (just like Bane would have after studying them), but why do people assume that unlike Bane, he wasn't afraid to use them?

Does it matter? Both are rituals that require more than one Sith to perform.
Thus they are inaccessible here.

Technically we actually have no idea of he nature of the unelaborated on rituals that Bane wasn't willing to perform, so they may have required others or they may not have. I just find it quite strange that people will automatically assume that Revan is somehow > Bane because Bane was unwilling to perform techniques found in his holocron.

Maybe they say Revan > Bane because that's just how it is? Who says it merely hinges on that one fact?

Nebaris did I ever say that Revan was afraid, (or wasn't afraid for that matter too) all I did was state the facts. Revan' s holocron shows that Revan knew attacks Bane was afraid to attempt which is stated in POD.

Well given how you stated this:

As far as I can tell the known attacks are the force storm, and the thought bomb,though there were a few unnamed techniques that Bane was suppose to be scared to even try.

in response to this:

Apart from that, what do we really know about what Revan can do?

it appeared as if you were claiming that Revan was actually able to perform said techniques that Bane was unwilling to.