AOTC Dooku Vs Darth Revan

what Nihilus does and what Traya do seem vey different
she does a powerful Force Drain Nihilus does "Force Devour" or whatever
what Kreia exactly said about Nihilus' power is:
"It cannot be taught. It can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

which seems to me to mean you must be severed from the Force and die before you can learn it because well that's the effects you must experience first-hand

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Kreia says it cannot be TAUGHT. Furthermore, Korriban was NOT plundered when Exar Kun came there. It was plundered by Revan and his troops. Exar Kun left for Yavin IV, unless you want to throw out the old argument that Exar Kun somehow came back to Korriban and took something, which means you'd have to prove it. Kun was a Naga Sadow patsy. His knowledge of ancient sith techniques were limited to Sadow's teachings.

So no, i doubt he is limited to ONLY sadow's teachings.

Didn't he get a few ancient sith scrolls with teach ancient sith techniques when he went to korriban or did he get them somewhere else?

He got the sith holocron from Odan Urr. It could't be the one that Sadow made because Palpatine had had that one and Kun destroyed the one he had. The only thing we know he learned from his holocron was the double blade.

Didnt kun get another holocron during the attack on Ossus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He got the sith holocron from Odan Urr. It could't be the one that Sadow made because Palpatine had had that one and Kun destroyed the one he had. The only thing we know he learned from his holocron was the double blade.

And as for sadow's holocron so what if it was in the hands of palpatine? It *could* have been in the hands of exar kun seeing that he was so eager to learn sadows teachings.

Btw where did he learn that "ebony/black" lightning? I don't recall him ever using it..

Originally posted by Ivalice
Btw where did he learn that "ebony/black" lightning? I don't recall him ever using it..

Its the attack he(spirit) and kyp used on Luke. And Kyp wanted to use it on Kun's spirit to kill him (even though kun' was now completely dead) and it might have been the attack used on Gantoris. Though it never was said where he learned it.

He and kyp? Did the power originate from kun? Because the DSSB states that he is a complete master of force lightning.

I think that black lightning attack is some sort of sith magic. I have no clue where he learned it but there doesnt seem to be a defense for it..

Originally posted by 123KID
what Nihilus does and what Traya do seem vey different
she does a powerful Force Drain Nihilus does "Force Devour" or whatever
what Kreia exactly said about Nihilus' power is:
"It cannot be taught. It can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

which seems to me to mean you must be severed from the Force and die before you can learn it because well that's the effects you must experience first-hand

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Um why wouldn't it be effective against a single opponent? Instead of multiple bolts of lightning there would be one, so I don't know where you are getting this information from.

Yes. Essentially it will be one lightning bolt (so pretty much the same that normal force lightning does) directed against a single opponent. Who, in this case, has shown the ability to block force lightning.

Congratulations. Yoda also studied for 800 years and couldn't come a 60 year old Sidious. So age doesn't equate to more wisdom and power. Revan's force mastery appeared to be greater than Dooku's.

No, DS. Revan's force knowledge appears to be greater than Dooku's which doesn't say much about actual power. Revan most likely the most powerful being in his era. Still Dooku plays right under the most powerful Sith and the most powerful Jedi in history.
And we weren't talking about power but about knowledge. And I'm quite sure Dooku could have amassed some nice amount of knowledge during his life as a Jedi. Especially since Yoda calls him "most learned in the ways of the force" and the Jedi Tempels “greatest student”. For power you might want to recognize the statement that Dooku has been one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the entire history of the Jedi Order and an "even greater Sith Lord".

Force grip was an unknown technique in KOTOR times? You mean Malak didn't use it against multiple Jedi on the SF while squaring off against Revan?

Mind you. It was you who stated that Dooku can just use force lightning in the offensive department. Which might be enough considering we saw nobody in KotoR times being able to actually block it.

Why would I have to prove them? We know Revan plundered the underground cities of Malachor V and then Korriban. It doesn't matter if Bane used the techniques or not. Bane said Revan was a master of ancient sith techniques, which is more than could be said for DOoku.

Easy, DS. You have to proof them because unless you can proof that Revan has knowledge of abilities that can be applied in a one on one match it's utterly useless to site over and over again that he had knowledge of several Sith teachings. Exar Kun amassed “more knowledge than he could ever use” and a great part of it was Sith Alchemy (which would also be Sith teachning) that isn't useable in direct confrontations while other of his abilities (the spell he used to freeze or control the senate) don't seem to affect force users at all despite being Sith teachings.
And you're using double-standards here. If "but he plundered two planets" according to you is an argument that automatically puts Revan over Dooku, you would have to accept the stance that learning from the two greatest force users (light side and dark side) in the history of the Galaxy up to that point would have resulted in Dooku having some nice force knowledge either.

If you ask me to substantiate that knowledge, I can ask you to do the same for Revan. With the same result I might say. As far as it comes to canon, Revan did use nothing else but the standard Sith Lord manouvers in personal confrontations.

And this puts him on Revan's level how?

I don't know how to put people on the level of a relative unknown, Sexy. Because that's exactly what Revan is. Aside of that I was not suggesting that Dooku, because of that actions, must be on Revan's level. I just said that using the force to attack beings who have no defence against that is certainly less impressive than doing the same with rather skilled Jedi Masters.

It's not that it's dismissed it's that the KOTOR games and BOD put level on an incredible pedestal and even though the specific techniques are unknown, it IS known this his knowledge of ancient sith techniques was incredibly broad and his force mastery was second to none.

They do? Name a combat feat of Revan that Dooku couldn't have replicated. The only thing (arguably) is defeating Malak on the Star Forge. Maybe. Everything else? I don't see Dooku having much trouble with non-force-users, droids or relative weak Dark Jedi.

Kreia says it cannot be TAUGHT.

And she also says that it can only be learned by having experienced the effects that this power generates. Meaning it's not based on the knowledge stored on Malachor. Which in turn means that listing that technique to try and proof how precious the knowledge stored on Malachor was is nonsense.

Furthermore, Korriban was NOT plundered when Exar Kun came there.

It pretty much was. Or let me put it in other words: Korriban was a graveworld. How much knowledge do you expect to find on a freaking graveyard? Even in the tombs of the Sith Lord that weren't opened before Revan did visit the planet again in KotoR there was no knowledge stored but only Dark Side artifacts. So I wonder what kind of knowledge you expect to be found there. The logical place to search for knowledge would be Ziost.

It was plundered by Revan and his troops.

For sure, dude. Revan and his troops didn't even manage to plunder the tombs that were just some metres away from their own Academy. Yet you want to tell me that they plundered the entire world?

Exar Kun left for Yavin IV, unless you want to throw out the old argument that Exar Kun somehow came back to Korriban and took something, which means you'd have to prove it. Kun was a Naga Sadow patsy. His knowledge of ancient sith techniques were limited to Sadow's teachings.

Not Kun himself. His followers did come back to Korriban. Which is pretty apparent from the fact that when Duron Qel-Droma and his friends are visiting the planets to kill the terentateks there (in 3,993 BBY) the Sith Academy is already established.

And again I don't have to. He plundere those cities, Bane states he was barely able to wrap his mind around the techniques that Revan showed in his holocron, ergo Revan KNEW ancient sith techniques on a very broad scale.

See above. Yoda called Dooku the being in the Jedi temple "most learned in the ways of the force" suggesting that Dooku had quite some knowledge in the force power department (especially considering his demonstration of Qey'Tek and the fact that he is one of the very few beings able to deflect force lightning with his hands). Yet I know what Bane thought of thom of the techniques Revan taught him. The point is that none of that techniques was ever used in direct confrontation and the "more powerful" techniques were the rituals that are used by the Sith later in BoD (the unification of their force powers through Bane as well as the force bomb).

Yet neither Bane nor Revan do show any special force abilities in combat situations. It would be logically for them to do so especially when fighting against the odds (like Bane and Zannah in Ro2 or Bane vs Kas'im in BoD). Still it never happens. They do use force lightning or offensive applications of TK (such as force grip) in the same manner Dooku does. Nothing else.

Oh really? You mean those fake sith holocrons in the jedi temple that were carefully placed there by the sith?

Erm. The fake holocrons were placed there by the Jedi and not the Sith. The Jedi Archieves did hold quite a lot of real Sith holocrons that were stored there because the Jedi wanted to study them for ideas how to defeat the Sith if they should ever return. The one Dooku stole was a genuine one. And considering that all senior Jedi had access to that holocrons he most likely would have had access to them even before he left the Jedi Order.

And as he did steal the holocron 10 months after the Battle of Geonosis. The Clone Wars ended 36 months after Geonosis. So he apparently had more than two years to study that holocron.

So what did Dooku learn? Or rather how long did he study the holocron? Could have been a week? A year? A day?

The holocron was discovered 16 months after the battle of Geonosis, meaning Dooku had about 20 month to study the information stored within it. And he had extracted the information of the holocron before giving Darth Andeddus lightsaber crytal to Quinlan Vos if you want to suggest that Dooku did hand the original holocron to Sidious - he still kept everything that was stored inside.

Whirlwind abilities, able to choke 2 jedi simultaneously while goading Revan, force lightning, force drain. That's more than could be said for Dooku.

Oh this is great.

Whirlwind = TK. Dooku displayed rather more skill in that department.

Owning two Jedi simultaneously? Dooku electrocuted Sora Bulq while duelling with Tholme. That aside from chocking Jedi Council Member Obi-Wan Kenobi while kicking Anakin "Chosen One" Skywalker across the room.

Force lightning? Shown by Dooku too. Force drain? Yup. Against helpless Jedi that have been captured on the Star Forge.

Still I don't see where Malak > Dooku.

Quantity does not equal quality, otherwise Yoda's experience and mastery would have been enough to defeat Sidious.

Quality as in "greatest student of the Jedi Temple", "most learned in the ways of the force", "one of the most powerful Jedi in history and even greater as a Sith Lord" ? Quality in the matter of sense that Dooku's force control was actually great enough to stretch certain blood vessels of Asajj Ventress to a point where they were about to pop – without even focussing on what he was actually doing? Or quality in terms of putting dents into durasteel constructions, ripping them apart or bring the ceiling of ferrocrete buildings down on his opponents?

Quality as in "greatest student of the Jedi Temple", "most learned in the ways of the force",

As compared too? Obi-Wan? Lord Hoth? Anyone halfway decent?

"one of the most powerful Jedi in history and even greater as a Sith Lord"

The same could easily be said for Revan.

Quality in the matter of sense that Dooku's force control was actually great enough to stretch certain blood vessels of Asajj Ventress to a point where they were about to pop – without even focussing on what he was actually doing?

Big Woop.
Bane was able to manipulate things on the sub-atomic level. I guess that puts him WAY above Dooku then. Come to think of it, all the Sith that made Holocrons would have had to do the same, Revan included. I guess Dooku's even further down the pecking order than I had previously thought.

Or quality in terms of putting dents into durasteel constructions, ripping them apart or bring the ceiling of ferrocrete buildings down on his opponents?

What about the quality required to create starships using the Force and the Star Forge? Or in single-handedly defeating two huge, lightsaber resistent monsters that 3 of the best jedi of the time lost to?

How much knowledge do you expect to find on a freaking graveyard?

Tulak Hords holocron. Ajunta Pall's sword? Qel'Droma's cloak? The circlet of Serresh? All after Revan had initially scoured the world. Also, didn't Krayt find 3 holocrons on Korriban?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
As compared too? Obi-Wan? Lord Hoth? Anyone halfway decent?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

The same could easily be said for Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Big Woop.
Bane was able to manipulate things on the sub-atomic level.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

I guess that puts him WAY above Dooku then.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Come to think of it, all the Sith that made Holocrons would have had to do the same, Revan included. I guess Dooku's even further down the pecking order than I had previously thought.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

What about the quality required to create starships using the Force and the Star Forge?

I seriously laugh at your raging hormone fanboyism every time the name "revan" pops up anywhere.

Hell i am beginning to wonder if you ever saw revan mentioned in any novel or an appearence in the Kotor games, weather your dick steams up or not ready to impale an ******* which is not there.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Or in single-handedly defeating two huge, lightsaber resistent monsters that 3 of the best jedi of the time lost to?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Tulak Hords holocron. Ajunta Pall's sword? Qel'Droma's cloak? The circlet of Serresh? All after Revan had initially scoured the world. Also, didn't Krayt find 3 holocrons on Korriban?

Oh and those 3 holocrons were kept by palpatine on korriban.

Arguing that Malak > Dooku is pointless. The only time that Malak has demonstrated power and skill beyond Dooku is when he's on the Star Forged, and I doubt that that would be clear cut, either.

There's just nothing pointing to a more powerful Malak. Cut. It. Out.

Quantify and substantiate which you (would likely) never do at all. But i guess thats nothing new eh?

'The Matrix had to fall within exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the Force....'- RO2 p.g.136

The entire jedi order in 25 000 years?

Any names?

LMFAO!! Since when revan can create starships with the force? It was the star forge doing so you idiot. Oh right you have yet to actually play Kotor(or pay attention to the dialogue) and yet you already have revans dick in your mouth sucking every quantity of sperm left in his balls.

Bastila stated that after Revan left that there was no one powerful enough to use the Star Forge, indicating that it required someone of emmense power in the force to control it.
And Revan's a girl. No dick.

Oh right revan as a lightsider would want to collect dark side artifacts, how amusing

Revan was a darksider at the time of her scouring of Korriban.
And I was just pointing out how many powerful stuff was still there to be found.

I think everyone is over estimating Revan as a single force user, his greatest skill was his leadership and military tactics in a war against the characters from the films he would ultimately win easily, however against Dooku he would most likely fail.

We can however only guess at certain things because as you play as Revan his power seems diminished and because you no him and could control him you think less of him.

also to the theory that revan fell to the darkside- i dont read the novels and have only played the games (both at least three times) but i think i agree with krei who says that revans fall was his own disition as he needed the power to defeat the true sith threat- with him leaving in mind how powerful did he become??? we dont no unless there is somewhere to find out in which case please let me no

Originally posted by paceme
also to the theory that revan fell to the darkside- i dont read the novels and have only played the games (both at least three times) but i think i agree with krei who says that revans fall was his own disition as he needed the power to defeat the true sith threat- with him leaving in mind how powerful did he become??? we dont no unless there is somewhere to find out in which case please let me no

Whether weather fell to the darkside on his own decision(sort of like Luke in DE) or not it does not affect the fact that he truly was a darksider his holocron shows that.

i sspose but it says something about his will, which may help in the fight against dooku

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
'The Matrix had to fall within exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the Force....'- RO2 p.g.136

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Any names?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Bastila stated that after Revan left that there was no one powerful enough to use the Star Forge, indicating that it required someone of emmense power in the force to control it.
And Revan's a girl. No dick.

Oh and controlling a station does not mean using the force to create ships idiot. You have yet to still prove that.

BTW revans a male and lightsider according to canon.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Revan was a darksider at the time of her scouring of Korriban.
And I was just pointing out how many powerful stuff was still there to be found.