Originally posted by queeq
They did to me, although PT will always be remembered in my mind as film history's greatest missed opportunity.
Which is why you spend time in here as a Moderator, of course. If someone was really as depressed as you were about the PT, they would have moved on to something else in their life, instead of spending 10+ years complaining.
Or is Lucas bashing so addictive you can't stop?
Originally posted by ~JP~
Oh jeeez get over yourself. 🙄 Queeq has hardly spent 10 years complaining or bashing Lucas. He always has a valid point and seeing how is is involved in film/television production I think he has the knowledge to back up his statements.
It's the argument I have brought up before - how does a trilogy gross $2.5 billion worldwide, actually score fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, and apparently NOBODY likes it? Answer: a tiny internet minority who think they know more about STAR WARS than Lucas creates this illusion, because they whine louder than anyone could possibly imagine.
I may have little criticisms of my own regarding the PT, but calling it the greatest missed opportunity in film history is just too over the top. When you consider the massive bombs that have bankrupted studios and nearly ended careers throughout the past century - the PT is nowhere near that category.
And I'm in the TV & Film industry as well. And probably one of the few in this forum who actually went to the OT when it was first in the theatres 30 years ago. That gives you a different perspective than the VHS generation.
Originally posted by roughrider
It's the argument I have brought up before - how does a trilogy gross $2.5 billion worldwide, actually score fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, and apparently NOBODY likes it? Answer: a tiny internet minority who think they know more about STAR WARS than Lucas creates this illusion, because they whine louder than anyone could possibly imagine.I may have little criticisms of my own regarding the PT, but calling it the greatest missed opportunity in film history is just too over the top. When you consider the massive bombs that have bankrupted studios and nearly ended careers throughout the past century - the PT is nowhere near that category.
And I'm in the TV & Film industry as well. And probably one of the few in this forum who actually went to the OT when it was first in the theatres 30 years ago. That gives you a different perspective than the VHS generation.
First of all, I'm 8 years older than you are so you can add me to the list of people who saw ANH in the theaters the day it premiered and I was 16 not 8. Secondly, I think the point Queeq is trying to make is that the PT could have been WAY better than it turned out. And given the fact that SW is universally known as one of the triumphs in film making Lucas missed his chance at making the PT as good as the OT. I myself love all 6 of the movies and I still maintain that as good as ROTS is, it should have been way better given the book which Lucas endorsed. The mans writing style as far as dialog goes is horrendous and stilted. At the very least he could have had someone else do the screenplay. That being said, Im not one of these people that sits around trashing the PT. It is what it is and as a fan I can accept it and to be honest I like the PT. Is it great? No, but I enjoy watching those movies. However I think Lucas need to just STOP there and quit frickin around with the entire saga and leave it alone.
I saw the movie in 1977 in the theater... so what's the point?
The OT as a narrative has much more to offer than the PT. The PT is, storywise, flawed on so many levels that books can be written about them. Yet, it was the OT had to suffer from all the limitations of the time in contrast to Lucas' vision. The Man with a vision that spanned so far in the future that no one could touch the power of the OT, movies that drew millons of people that loved it and not just KIDS (just look at the famous long cue pics... I see few little kids there). The OT dwarfed classic sci-fi like Star Trek... and yet, Lucas always insisted wisely on the principle that the story came first and visual effects were mere tools to tell that story...
Now in 1998 he revamped the franchise when finally technology was unlimited in its possibilities (well, very near to). The technology was tehre, all the money was there, all the prospect of making a lot more money was there, billions of eager fans were there and a whole new generation waiting... And what was the first thing that suffered most when Lucas made these films? The Story.... Now, roughrider... that is what I call: the greatest missed opportunity in film history. It has nothing to do with box office results or studios not bombing... It has to do with what was possible in comparison to the OT and what we got. They difference between the two with that in mind is quite horrific...
That's not to say I don't like them. They are far better than Transformers 2 for instance (which was also seen by millions of people, so box office is not really a good test for quality), but they really don't make it when compared to the OT.
The best comparison for the PT is this: I like the OT. Yet, ROTJ was a bit of a disappointed as a whole: it had great stuff, but also quite a bit of not so good stuff. For me, the PT as part of the SW saga is what ROTJ is to the OT.
And that's a very valid point. I can agree with the fact that many opportunities were missed with the PT, as they were with ROTJ.
But that's always the problem when you have to compare one film to one of it's predecessors. Nothing can ever be looked at as a "stand alone" film when it's part of a long running series. SW suffers from that problem. ROTS at a minimum, is a good film, though many have mistaken it as being "terrible" because they are holding that movie next to the OT and making a constant comparison.
Originally posted by ~JP~
First of all, I'm 8 years older than you are so you can add me to the list of people who saw ANH in the theaters the day it premiered and I was 16 not 8. Secondly, I think the point Queeq is trying to make is that the PT could have been WAY better than it turned out. And given the fact that SW is universally known as one of the triumphs in film making Lucas missed his chance at making the PT as good as the OT. I myself love all 6 of the movies and I still maintain that as good as ROTS is, it should have been way better given the book which Lucas endorsed. The mans writing style as far as dialog goes is horrendous and stilted. At the very least he could have had someone else do the screenplay. That being said, Im not one of these people that sits around trashing the PT. It is what it is and as a fan I can accept it and to be honest I like the PT. Is it great? No, but I enjoy watching those movies. However I think Lucas need to just STOP there and quit frickin around with the entire saga and leave it alone.
Your last statement is very important, because it reflects the 'ownership' issues many fans seem to have with the saga; I've been hearing it since the Special Editions came out in 1997. Fans who think Lucas doesn't have the 'right' to make changes or additions to his films - like fundamentalist Christians who interpret the Bible scripture as absolute, and any change as blasphemy. I have always regarded the films as his property, and many of the additions were fine with me. Even if I didn't like them, the films are still the same, in the end. My worldview didn't change because Han DIDN'T shoot first. He was still the same character in the end.
But this fanaticism is something Lucas has put up with since 1977, when certain fans flocked to his parent's house, to give their devotion to the parents of a man delivering a message from God (they believed) Or the crazies who showed up with weapons at his offices demanding a share of the Star Wars profits - read the Dale Pollock bio for things like that. Or being called the Antichrist by other film critics for putting an end to the last Golden Age of cinema; just because he made the kind of film no one had ever seen before.
Every criticism I have heard of the PT, I always thought you could apply to the OT as well if you wanted to.
Horrible dialogue? Check.
Flat acting? Check.
Childish characters? Check.
Some have been consistent with their criticism of all the films; fine. OK.
To me, either you accept it all as a whole, or you don't.
Originally posted by roughriderEvery criticism I have heard of the PT, I always thought you could apply to the OT as well if you wanted to.
Horrible dialogue? Check.
Flat acting? Check.
Childish characters? Check.
Praise be the lord that someone else gets what I've been saying all along. Both trilogies suffer from the exact same problems.
But like I've stated before, the OT will always get away with bad dialogue, flat acting and childish characters due to it's "time period." The style, the look, the culture and generation of the world adapted to these films during that time. Today's standards are no longer the same, so people accuse the PT of being so problematic without acknowledging that the OT had several flaws too, and are merely only as good as they are because those films introduced and set a new standard for filmmaking that has not been achieved since 1977.
Agreed. Lucas considered it important to keep the same style he established in the OT.
Now, were there better acting flourishes seen in TESB and ROTJ, with the different directors? Sure. But they were still following the road map Lucas gave them.
Did Lucas look a bit rusty as a director with TPM? Sure. That's why of the six it's generally number six for me - but it's no less important for being part of the whole. The presence of the other films helps make it better; and Lucas got better with each film that followed.
Both of you do forget story.... the PT stories are a lot worse than the OT. I think originally ANH wasn't that great either. I think the actors helped a lot in doing away with silly dialogue, making most things work even though they didn't get it and stuff. Lucas was insecurer at the time and had a very hard. You can see in the making ofs of the PT, Lucas is ruling supreme and there is very little room for the actors. Lucas didn't need anyone to help him, he had the power and resources to do everything his own way. And that shows...
I think one can get away with a lot of cheesy acting, bad dialogue and childish characters. But when the story works and as a viewer you 'get it', it takes you for a ride. Personally that's where the PT fails so very very often. Or as someone once put it: characters in the PT do thinsg because the plot requiers them to, not because they have reason or motivation to do so. That's why it all feels so off, despite it's terrific look... It still feels like pretty pics with no content.
Originally posted by queeqI think one can get away with a lot of cheesy acting, bad dialogue and childish characters. But when the story works and as a viewer you 'get it', it takes you for a ride. Personally that's where the PT fails so very very often. Or as someone once put it: characters in the PT do thinsg because the plot requiers them to, not because they have reason or motivation to do so. That's why it all feels so off, despite it's terrific look... It still feels like pretty pics with no content.
Or maybe it's because we know the final outcome of events, that it feels to you like they are going through the motions; unlike the mystery of how things would conclude in the OT. The PT can't alter the OT history, so all it can do is show us the hows and the whys things happened.
And I never saw any incidents where characters are doing things because the plot requires them to. Everyone is following their basic nature and being in character, right down to Anakin. Lucas creates a story that justifies everyone's actions, even if the terrible actions by Anakin are partially in his head, and the rest manipulations by Palpatine.
OKay answer me this then, just two of the many many problems, but since Anakin's love story is crucial to his fall and therefor for the entire saga:
1. Why does Padme fall in love with Anakin? What is the spark that makes her love him? (Keep this mind: Padme is righteous, just, seeks justice and wisdom - Anakin: bratty, talks bad about his mentor OB1, is grumpy, quite immature in his attitude and looks at her in a scary horny way.... + he is about seven years younger than her)
2. Why does Padme so readily accept his slaughter of innocent tuskens?
Originally posted by queeq
OKay answer me this then, just two of the many many problems, but since Anakin's love story is crucial to his fall and therefor for the entire saga:1. Why does Padme fall in love with Anakin? What is the spark that makes her love him? (Keep this mind: Padme is righteous, just, seeks justice and wisdom - Anakin: bratty, talks bad about his mentor OB1, is grumpy, quite immature in his attitude and looks at her in a scary horny way.... + he is about seven years younger than her)
2. Why does Padme so readily accept his slaughter of innocent tuskens?
Ya, those are good questions.
Err.... well no...
There's an interesting outline in Lucas' handwriting in the Making of ESB book.
It goes like this
Ep1 Prologue
Ep2 ]
]
Ep3 ] Clone Wars Trilogy
]
Ep4]
Ep 5 Interlude or something
Ep 6 (a short synopsis op ANH)
Ep7 (continuation of Ep6)
Very detailed... NOT. And... he was thinking of a Clone Wars Trilogy at the time. What we got is only the beginning and the end of the CW, and all that in a lousy animated series...
So why do a prequel? To tell the real Anakin story in a CW trilogy... but since we didn't get that... you're question then makes sense...
Originally posted by queeq
Err.... well no...There's an interesting outline in Lucas' handwriting in the Making of ESB book.
It goes like this
Ep1 Prologue
Ep2 ]
]
Ep3 ] Clone Wars Trilogy
]
Ep4]Ep 5 Interlude or something
Ep 6 (a short synopsis op ANH)
Ep7 (continuation of Ep6)
Very detailed... NOT. And... he was thinking of a Clone Wars Trilogy at the time. What we got is only the beginning and the end of the CW, and all that in a lousy animated series...
So why do a prequel? To tell the real Anakin story in a CW trilogy... but since we didn't get that... you're question then makes sense...
I personally like the Clone Wars, and think they do a better job of depicting a real Anakin, when compared to ROTS. However, there is one problem that bugs the wazoo out of me. The progression of technology to make the films, makes it seem that the empire was more advanced in the past then in the future. There is never any attempt to explain this.