The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?

Originally posted by peejayd
* okay, if you want to put it that way... granting without accepting, that in that time there is no way anyone could have known if a wine is free of alcohol or not by taste... but it was still written as "wine"... and if we are going through its context, that specific "good" wine was created by Jesus through a miracle... the wine was miraculous... so maybe (for the sake of argument), it was grape juice yet it tasted like wine so it was written as "good" wine... fair enough?

Originally posted by peejayd
* you believe the cultures, traditions and historical events in the Bible... but you don't believe the miracles and other supernatural things in the Bible, am i right? so how would you gauge the authenticity of the Bible? because you believe in some and you don't believe in some? 50/50?

Originally posted by peejayd
* He can, but He did not... He has a mission, in which He accomplished within His three-year preaching...

You are beginning to sound like a broken record.

Originally posted by peejayd
* fair enough... so, what do you think of Him? do you think He's really illiterate considering you are challenging my belief that He's not?

il•lit•er•ate ( -l t r- t)
adj.
1.
a. Unable to read and write.
b. Having little or no formal education.
2.
a. Marked by inferiority to an expected standard of familiarity with language and literature.
b. Violating prescribed standards of speech or writing.
3. Ignorant of the fundamentals of a given art or branch of knowledge: musically illiterate. See Usage Note at literate.

I would not say that Jesus was illiterate. He was highly educated by the priests in the temple. I base this on the account of Jesus as a child in the temple. Any child that would have impressed the priests would have been given opportunities to learn. However, I think it would have been a little odd if Jesus could write beyond a few words. It wasn’t a common practice to learn how to write if you are learning to be a teacher.

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope, in my opinion, writing and preaching are equal... both requires wisdom and knowledge... and it is actually much more difficult to preach than to write...

Thank you, for your opinion, but there are preachers that would disagree with you.

Originally posted by peejayd
* Matthew 28:18-20... in this passage, He did although indirectly...

28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

No, this is not indirectly; In this passage, Jesus does not say anything about writing.

Originally posted by peejayd
* it did:

"When the festival was half over, Jesus went to the temple courtyard and began to teach.
The Jews were surprised and asked, How can this man be so educated when he hasn't gone to school?"
John 7:14-15

All that is telling me is that the people did not know that he was educated.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
As I have said the “wine” that Jesus created was mystical so it could have tasted like chicken for all we know, my point is that wine of the time contained alcohol and they didn’t have the technology to detect it. They had non-alcohol wine and had names for all of them so it would be a natural assumption to assume that if the wine was non-alcoholic then they would have used those terms.

* actually, they know how... because other than wine, many passages also included the phrase "strong drink"... how can they say that a certain drink is "strong" or not? if it's wine or not? they know how to detect it... but nowhere in the Bible will you find the the phrase "good wine"... only the miraculous/mystical wine that Jesus created...

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Most any of the supernatural events can either be explained by a natural phenomena, embellishment of the story or fabrication, as for the historical references in the Bible this is also back up by scientific evidence and other historical documents not found in the Bible.

* so there is no point of argument because i believe the Bible as a whole...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are beginning to sound like a broken record.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
il•lit•er•ate ( -l t r- t)
adj.
1.
a. Unable to read and write.
b. Having little or no formal education.
2.
a. Marked by inferiority to an expected standard of familiarity with language and literature.
b. Violating prescribed standards of speech or writing.
3. Ignorant of the fundamentals of a given art or branch of knowledge: musically illiterate. See Usage Note at literate.

I would not say that Jesus was illiterate. He was highly educated by the priests in the temple. I base this on the account of Jesus as a child in the temple. Any child that would have impressed the priests would have been given opportunities to learn. However, I think it would have been a little odd if Jesus could write beyond a few words. It wasn’t a common practice to learn how to write if you are learning to be a teacher.

* as i've said, He can write but He did not... you see, there is a specific reason for Jesus when He was on earth... to simply put, His mission is to preach, not to write... in the Bible, God gave humans good and perfect gifts... and some of them are wisdom and knowledge... and Christ is the wisdom of God, so it is impossible that Jesus does not know how to write...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Thank you, for your opinion, but there are preachers that would disagree with you.

* if you think about it, preaching is more difficult because you have to be more focused, anything you say should be according to faith and it's impromptu... while writing, you have the luxury to rewrite and edit...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

No, this is not indirectly; In this passage, Jesus does not say anything about writing.

* teaching all nations to observe all things Jesus commanded? the disciples can never literally preach all nations if they did not write epistles...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
All that is telling me is that the people did not know that he was educated.

* yeah, because they have not seen Jesus go to school... but He amazed them with His knowledge and wisdom, through reading and preaching... actually, i'm looking it the other way around... that it was given that if He knows how to read, it is pretty obvious He also knows how to write...

Originally posted by peejayd
* as i've said, He can write but He did not... you see, there is a specific reason for Jesus when He was on earth... to simply put, His mission is to preach, not to write... in the Bible, God gave humans good and perfect gifts... and some of them are wisdom and knowledge... and Christ is the wisdom of God, so it is impossible that Jesus does not know how to write...

Quoting me is not proof that Jesus could write. Also, to say that Jesus was supernatural or magical is also not proof he could write.

Originally posted by peejayd
* if you think about it, preaching is more difficult because you have to be more focused, anything you say should be according to faith and it's impromptu... while writing, you have the luxury to rewrite and edit...

Then why are there so many books written my preachers?

Originally posted by peejayd
* teaching all nations to observe all things Jesus commanded? the disciples can never literally preach all nations if they did not write epistles...

That is your interpretation. You have added information to the bible. Literally he never said how.

Originally posted by peejayd
* yeah, because they have seen Jesus go to school... but He amazed them with His knowledge and wisdom, through reading and preaching... actually, i'm looking it the other way around... that it was given that if He knows how to read, it is pretty obvious He also knows how to write...

Reading and writing do not go hand in hand. There are people who can read very well, but not able to write. I am not talking about spelling; I am talking about writing.

OMFG HE WROTE PARAGRAPHS!!!!!!1111

Originally posted by peejayd
* actually, they know how... because other than wine, many passages also included the phrase "strong drink"... how can they say that a certain drink is "strong" or not? if it's wine or not? they know how to detect it... but nowhere in the Bible will you find the the phrase "good wine"... only the miraculous/mystical wine that Jesus created...

Originally posted by peejayd

* so there is no point of argument because i believe the Bible as a whole...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Quoting me is not proof that Jesus could write. Also, to say that Jesus was supernatural or magical is also not proof he could write.

* i guess i cannot do anything about that, because you really want a material evidence of His writing... the closest thing i can ever think of is this:

"Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?
You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
Clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart."
II Corinthians 3:1-3

* but i guess you will not consider this as a proof also... so, there, i cannot do anything about that...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then why are there so many books written my preachers?

* they have enough time to write... Jesus didn't...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is your interpretation. You have added information to the bible. Literally he never said how.

* true, He never said how... but in their time, there are two possible ways: preaching and writing... the disciples can preach on nearby places and write an epistle to far-off places...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Reading and writing do not go hand in hand. There are people who can read very well, but not able to write. I am not talking about spelling; I am talking about writing.

* i still think it's the other way around... obviously, we have different views regarding this matter...

Originally posted by peejayd
* i still think it's the other way around... obviously, we have different views regarding this matter...

Originally posted by peejayd
* i guess i cannot do anything about that, because you really want a material evidence of His writing... the closest thing i can ever think of is this:

"Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?
You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
Clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart."
II Corinthians 3:1-3

* but i guess you will not consider this as a proof also... so, there, i cannot do anything about that...

I don’t want anything, because I know there is no material evidence. I just wanted to see how far you would go before admitting it is just something you believe. There is nothing wrong with having a belief and faith in that belief, but for some reason you put a lot of value in proof. There is no proof in this case, so it has to be a case of faith.

Originally posted by peejayd
* they have enough time to write... Jesus didn't...

According to Christian mythology, Jesus was the son of god, and could have had angels write books for him. How can the son of god be stopped by time?

Originally posted by peejayd
* true, He never said how... but in their time, there are two possible ways: preaching and writing... the disciples can preach on nearby places and write an epistle to far-off places...

My point is that he did not say.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i still think it's the other way around... obviously, we have different views regarding this matter...

Have you considered the possibility that Jesus did write books, and that those books are somewhere out of sight of the public? Just a thought…

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don’t want anything, because I know there is no material evidence. I just wanted to see how far you would go before admitting it is just something you believe. There is nothing wrong with having a belief and faith in that belief, but for some reason you put a lot of value in proof. There is no proof in this case, so it has to be a case of faith.

* there is no proof because there was no writing... but it also depends what kind of proof a person is accepting... in my case, according to the Bible, Christ is the wisdom of God (I Corinthians 1:24)... and as the wisdom of God, i believe that He knows how to write...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
According to Christian mythology, Jesus was the son of god, and could have had angels write books for him. How can the son of god be stopped by time?

* according to the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God... how can the Son of God incapable of writing when He is the wisdom of God?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
My point is that he did not say.

* true, but as i've said, there are only two ways to preach... through verbal and through writing... and He commanded His disciple to teach all nations...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Have you considered the possibility that Jesus did write books, and that those books are somewhere out of sight of the public? Just a thought…

* nope, i have faith in the authors of the Bible...

"It seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus;"
Luke 1:3

* Saint Luke traced the course of all things accurately and chronologically regarding the life of Jesus on earth, and if Jesus wrote an epistle (literally), Saint Luke should have written and included it in the gospel...

Originally posted by peejayd
* according to the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God... how can the Son of God incapable of writing when He is the wisdom of God?

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope, i have faith in the authors of the Bible...

"It seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus;"
Luke 1:3

* Saint Luke traced the course of all things accurately and chronologically regarding the life of Jesus on earth, and if Jesus wrote an epistle (literally), Saint Luke should have written and included it in the gospel...

Hey, guys?

Could Jesus swim? Could Jesus climb a mountain? Could Jesus stick to walls like Spider-Man? Could Jesus do kung-fu? Could Jesus...

You get the idea. Not even Christ knew the day of the Rapture; ergo, it is quite possible that he was not magically given the ability to read or write.

Originally posted by peejayd
* there is no proof because there was no writing... but it also depends what kind of proof a person is accepting... in my case, according to the Bible, Christ is the wisdom of God (I Corinthians 1:24)... and as the wisdom of God, i believe that He knows how to write...

There is only one kind of proof. Your beliefs are not proof.

Originally posted by peejayd
* according to the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God... how can the Son of God incapable of writing when He is the wisdom of God?

Or Jesus is not the son of god or the wisdom of god in the way that you are interpreting the scripture. I believe that you have taken something figurative and interpreted it literally.

Originally posted by peejayd
* true, but as i've said, there are only two ways to preach... through verbal and through writing... and He commanded His disciple to teach [b]all nations... [/B]

Then why did Jesus not specify?

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope, i have faith in the authors of the Bible...

"It seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus;"
Luke 1:3

* Saint Luke traced the course of all things accurately and chronologically regarding the life of Jesus on earth, and if Jesus wrote an epistle (literally), Saint Luke should have written and included it in the gospel...

I believe your faith is misplaced.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Hey, guys?

Could Jesus swim? Could Jesus climb a mountain? Could Jesus stick to walls like Spider-Man? Could Jesus do kung-fu? Could Jesus...

You get the idea. Not even Christ knew the day of the Rapture; ergo, it is quite possible that he was not magically given the ability to read or write.

Do you interpret the bible literally?

I think Jesus had the ability to do anything, but part of the deal with coming down here in human form meant actually being a human for a while. The ancient Middle East was a rough area, much like it is now. If he could hunger and thirst, he could certainly sweat uncomfortably under the hot sun, bleed if he got hurt, and was susceptible to disease.

It would make sense to me that Jesus of course had the ability to learn to read and write, but he was poor and those he associated with the most were poor and probably couldn't read anything he wrote anyway. Plus I don't know how expensive parchment and writing utensils were then. It seems like only the rich had them. Plus documents were much rarer then because you couldn't print them. You had to write them by hand and Jesus was too busy preaching orally and healing the sick. He didn't even take the Sabbath off, as cited in the Gospels. I just don't think he would have had the time even if he had the ability and materials. That's not how you reached the masses then.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I think Jesus had the ability to do anything, but part of the deal with coming down here in human form meant actually being a human for a while. The ancient Middle East was a rough area, much like it is now. If he could hunger and thirst, he could certainly sweat uncomfortably under the hot sun, bleed if he got hurt, and was susceptible to disease.

It would make sense to me that Jesus of course had the ability to learn to read and write, but he was poor and those he associated with the most were poor and probably couldn't read anything he wrote anyway. Plus I don't know how expensive parchment and writing utensils were then. It seems like only the rich had them. Plus documents were much rarer then because you couldn't print them. You had to write them by hand and Jesus was too busy preaching orally and healing the sick. He didn't even take the Sabbath off, as cited in the Gospels. I just don't think he would have had the time even if he had the ability and materials. That's not how you reached the masses then.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
The problem is that Jesus was not supposed to be human; he could supposedly heal the sick with a touch, turn water into wine, rise from the dead, walk on water and so on. This doesn’t sound too human to me unless you’re Chris Angle.

Perhaps Jesus was Chris Angle. 😆 Seriously, maybe he was just a really good illusionist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Perhaps Jesus was Chris Angle. 😆 Seriously, maybe he was just a really good illusionist.

stone cold 3:16?

"The problem is that Jesus was not supposed to be human; he could supposedly heal the sick with a touch, turn water into wine, rise from the dead, walk on water and so on. This doesn’t sound too human to me unless you’re Chris Angle."----Da Pittman

I guess you haven't heard of the Nicene Creed. It is basically a recited statement of what certain Christian churches believe. Part of it goes, "For our sake and for our salvation, he came down from Heaven...and became fully human." The hymn Beautiful Savior also addresses this with the lyric "son of God and son of man." It's hard for a lot of people to grasp that Jesus was fully God AND fully human. Even some of his last words were him saying, "I'm thirsty."