Batman or Superman

Originally posted by Newjak

No matter what he goes through in a comic, at the end of the day he is still SUPERMAN, and it seems like he will always be SUPERMAN. That he can never be anything more than SUPERMAN.

I find this statement to be a matter of opinion...

From my point of view, he regularly does things that elevate his status beyond that of just "Superman".

His weaknesses, (and not just K-nite) give him human qualities which makes dealing with the prospect of being "super" extremely difficult.

Originally posted by Newjak
Both

Yes I know there are stories that delve into what it is like to be Superman.

But when I compare those to others it really lacks IMO.

other characters? other stories? i liked em...

To me the character always has to be SUPERMAN, he just can not be Superman. His own Iconic nature doesn't allow him to be.

he chose to be superman, he has a responsibility to those around him... its a choice he made, and now people rely on him...

Seriously how much potential does Superman have.

Do you think if he was any other character but Superman any writer on board wouldn't have tapped that potential regularly.

right now superman's two titles are written by geoff johns (mister dc himself), and kurt busiek (as good as any superman writer on his day, imo)

It's Superman gets handled with kid gloves in that aspect. Mostly I think because most fans don't want to see a fallible version of him. Both Power wise and Emotional wise.

the gog storyline? he had a heart attack and still fought on even though the poison was slowly killing him... ermm

the journey/sacrifice, the whole jla turned against him... thats not fallible? even in camelot falls the jla had a go at him again...

Like I said when I compare those to others I find them lacking.

ok, fair enough, but i disagree...

No matter what he goes through in a comic, at the end of the day he is still SUPERMAN, and it seems like he will always be SUPERMAN. That he can never be anything more than SUPERMAN.

are you saying being superman isnt good enough?

Originally posted by Entity
I have read For Tomorrow and journey and I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.

The guy who's got and always had everything and never does anything wrong has deep inner concerns about not being one of us, even thou he looks just like us and is loved by everyone on his earth. Or the fact that he misses something he never actually had when he was raised in the perfect family with every power a kid could want to boot.

I just don't buy the I've got problems that wouldn't bother anyone else but they bother me because I'm Superman. 😬
It just puts me in mind of a spoiled little rich kid crying, "You just don't understand how hard it is to have everything!"

but thats the point... no matter how human he seems, no matter how normal he can come accross as, he is constantly reminded that he isn't human, that he doesn't fit in... he's loved like any celebrity would be, but none of those people know how hard it is for him to live among humans... he has to exercise control over everything... he cant even touch his wife without fear of snapping her in half... on the outside, it seems like a perfect life, thats true...

but superman, when he doesnt save a life, takes it personally, because he is capable of saving almost anyone, and he doesnt see why he shouldnt be able to... thats why he keeps trying... he literally feels as if he has the world on his shoulders, and when the slightest thing goes wrong, he takes it incredibly personally... its because he has the powers he has that its harder for him, because unlike most heroes, there are very few wrongs he cant right, so every failure, no matter how slight, becomes a huge deal...

Originally posted by Soljer
Or...you could go read one of the best and most beautiful stories ever made again.

Kingdom Come. 🙂.

yeah, true...

Originally posted by pr1983
other characters? other stories? i liked em...

he chose to be superman, he has a responsibility to those around him... its a choice he made, and now people rely on him...

right now superman's two titles are written by geoff johns (mister dc himself), and kurt busiek (as good as any superman writer on his day, imo)

the gog storyline? he had a heart attack and still fought on even though the poison was slowly killing him... ermm

the journey/sacrifice, the whole jla turned against him... thats not fallible? even in camelot falls the jla had a go at him again...

ok, fair enough, but i disagree...

are you saying being superman isnt good enough?

Yet the overall image of Superman remains the same.

Take any normal joe schmo on the street and ask him which comic book people can beat Superman what do you think they will say?

Heck take the general comic book reader and ask them who can beat Superman. Take 50% of comic book readers and ask then who could beat Superman under Abstract and what do you think the answers will be?

Like I said a few writings don't change what the whole really is.

"are you saying being superman isnt good enough? "

I'm not saying it isn't but are you honestly going to sit there and say Superman's iconic stature doesn't hamper character development overall?

Originally posted by Newjak
You see the problem with your little comments are I already know about all those instances.

Yet the overall image of Superman remains the same.

Take any normal joe schmo on the street and ask him which comic book people can beat Superman what do you think they will say?

Heck take the general comic book reader and ask them who can beat Superman. Take 50% of comic book readers and ask then who could beat Superman under Abstract and what do you think the answers will be?

Like I said a few writings don't change what the whole really is.

"are you saying being superman isnt good enough? "

I'm not saying it isn't but are you honestly going to sit there and say Superman's iconic stature doesn't hamper character development overall?

we arent going to ever agree on this, are we?

Originally posted by pr1983
we arent going to ever agree on this, are we?

But it's alright I forgive you for being wrong 😗

Originally posted by Newjak
Probably not

But it's alright I forgive you for being wrong 😗

😂

said the juggernaut fan... 😛

Originally posted by pr1983
😂

said the juggernaut fan... 😛

Superman > Cyclops > Juggernaut.

In terms of characterization....

And overall power. 😖hifty:.

Originally posted by Soljer
Superman > Cyclops > Juggernaut.

In terms of characterization....

And overall power. 😖hifty:.

lulz...

Originally posted by Soljer
Superman > Cyclops > Juggernaut.

In terms of characterization....

And overall power. 😖hifty:.

😠

Batman is so much more interesting than Superman IMO. Obviously DC will not remove one or the other completely from their titles (I highly doubt Batman R.I.P storyline will even do that)

Originally posted by Entity
Yea I was really wanting this to be a vs thing. I don't see why it needed to be moved! 😕

Because it wasn't a true vs thread, hence the move.

Now this may be off topic but I'm going to rant about Supes redemptive qualities. Superman is the hero that heros look up to, its the concept of heroics, so people can have faith in how Superman can be there and be saved. To say it in a weird way, that a perfect guy like Supes exist gives hope to people that the guy can be better.

(Kind of like Captain America in Marvel.)

The thing is that you don't write Superman as a hero, his conflict comes from his status as an icon. I think about Kingdom Come and I see that when Superman retired from heroics, so did his status as an icon, a great part of the conflict in kingdom come is that when he comes back he becomes a leader, but not an inspiration as he used to be. This is also why Luthor is the perfect enemy for Supes, he doesn't want to kill him, he wants him to stop being the Icon he is. So you don't really get to write him like the others, its just not as compelling when you do.

The marvelous thing to read about Superman is the effects he has on others. I don't need to see Superman defeated as much as I need to have conflictive ideas about what people say about him. Take how Batman thinks of Supes, Bruce would like to believe that the world is a good place, he would like to have faith in what Superman symbolizes, but we have heard many times how he is worried about Clark's potential for destruction -like in Pr's signature. That is good Superman if you ask me.

End of rant.

Superman would die first in my opinion, but another symbol would rise to take his place.

Originally posted by Bentley
Now this may be off topic but I'm going to rant about Supes redemptive qualities. Superman is the hero that heros look up to, its the concept of heroics, so people can have faith in how Superman can be there and be saved. To say it in a weird way, that a perfect guy like Supes exist gives hope to people that the guy can be better.

(Kind of like Captain America in Marvel.)

The thing is that you don't write Superman as a hero, his conflict comes from his status as an icon. I think about Kingdom Come and I see that when Superman retired from heroics, so did his status as an icon, a great part of the conflict in kingdom come is that when he comes back he becomes a leader, but not an inspiration as he used to be. This is also why Luthor is the perfect enemy for Supes, he doesn't want to kill him, he wants him to stop being the Icon he is. So you don't really get to write him like the others, its just not as compelling when you do.

The marvelous thing to read about Superman is the effects he has on others. I don't need to see Superman defeated as much as I need to have conflictive ideas about what people say about him. Take how Batman thinks of Supes, Bruce would like to believe that the world is a good place, he would like to have faith in what Superman symbolizes, but we have heard many times how he is worried about Clark's potential for destruction -like in Pr's signature. That is good Superman if you ask me.

End of rant.

Superman would die first in my opinion, but another symbol would rise to take his place.

I agree.......

it was off topic 😛